Race 1 Addington - New starter required!

[Brodie]

The standing starts are not standing starts!

The mobile starts are a joke, come on HRNZ you are seriously not doing a great job!

The first at Addington was not a fair start, with several horses off unruly not given a fair start whatsoever!

They were 30 or 40 metres behind the gate and the starter is accelerating giving the unruly horses no chance!!!!

It may be that the starter has been given the instructions to run to time, however you are running a very amateur show and punters are seeing this!

Overdue again that they put up someone who is professional and capable, but then again things have deteriorated and we are having to suck it up.

Edited March 27 by Brodie

[Rangatira]

I'M CONNECTED - broke after 100m losing considerable ground. Placed on the unruly for future mobile starts. Switched to a pace leaving the final bend before breaking near the 200m losing all chance.

HE AINT FAKIN - broke late in the score up losing all chance. A warning was placed on the barrier record of the gelding.

ASPIRATIONAL DREAM - attempted to buck early in the score up and broke for a short distance resulting in the mare being out of position at the start. A warning was placed on the barrier record of the mare. Weakened final bend.

TETRICK(AUS) - pre-race warmed. Trotted roughly in the score up.

TU TANGATA - trotted roughly in the score up and was back from the unruly position at the start.

FORGIVENESS - lay inwards during the score up and was back from the unruly position at the start. Weakened final bend.

[Brodie]

13 hours ago, Rangatira said:

I'M CONNECTED - broke after 100m losing considerable ground. Placed on the unruly for future mobile starts. Switched to a pace leaving the final bend before breaking near the 200m losing all chance.

HE AINT FAKIN - broke late in the score up losing all chance. A warning was placed on the barrier record of the gelding.

ASPIRATIONAL DREAM - attempted to buck early in the score up and broke for a short distance resulting in the mare being out of position at the start. A warning was placed on the barrier record of the mare. Weakened final bend.

TETRICK(AUS) - pre-race warmed. Trotted roughly in the score up.

TU TANGATA - trotted roughly in the score up and was back from the unruly position at the start.

FORGIVENESS - lay inwards during the score up and was back from the unruly position at the start. Weakened final bend.

Not from what you could see on Trackside.

Starters job is to endure that every horse has a fair start, snd it wasn't, mobile seemed to be going quicker than  it normally would go, giving the unruly horses no chance!

stand's are also unfair starts.

[Rangatira]

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

Starters job is to endure that every horse has a fair start, snd it wasn't, mobile seemed to be going quicker than  it normally would go, giving the unruly horses no chance!

Looks like he is free to turn up again this week.

[pete cook]

15 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

Looks like he is free to turn up again this week.

Would you like to put your hand up for the job....maybe find out how bloody difficult it actually is?

[Rangatira]

41 minutes ago, pete cook said:

Would you like to put your hand up for the job....maybe find out how bloody difficult it actually is?

Wouldn't there be a more official application process?

Putting my hand up in Standard Four got me the opportunity to ring the school bell.

[Brodie]

43 minutes ago, pete cook said:

Would you like to put your hand up for the job....maybe find out how bloody difficult it actually is?

Peter, do you think that the starts are up to scratch?

There is no reason for the punter and owners to be accepting starts that are unfair!

There are far too many stands that are not standing starts and the mobile the other night was just D grade, and should not be tolerated by anyone!

Punters should have confidence in the starts but how on earth can we?

The starter needs to do the job to their best ability andif that is their best then god help us!

mediocrity should not be the standard, they have had more than enough experience surely?

[pete cook]

As far as the mobile in Race 1 the other night, it was all done per the Rules, galloping horses left behind as long as they don't cause interference. As I think I said previously, slowing the gate down for them to catch up can be disastrous - how would you feel if it slowed up and the horse you were on hit the gate and galloped?

As for stands, (I love them by the way, warts and all), they have always been an issue. It is very difficult to get a horse that is hyped up and full of adrenalin to stand still. Add to that the human element of drivers trying to gain an advantage (aka doing their job) and it becomes an almost impossible job. I've been to more meetings (horsemen and starters) than I can recall where it was up for discussion. One meeting wants them to stand, the next suggests walk-ups, then it was, as long as all horses are pointing in the right direction, let them go. It's a bit like handicapping, an advantage to one horse can mean a disadvantage to another. There is no sure fix, unless you put them in starting gates, and that might cause a problem with wheels etc! There is some blame on some trainers, as there is not the emphasis on educating horses to begin that there was when there were no mobiles, although training at home doesn't always ensure success on race day. but having owned and trained a horse that was renowned as a safe and fast beginner, he played up twice in a row and ended up on the unruly for 3 starts, much to my angst. Each starter has their own habits. If you listen, you will sometimes hear them call out 'whoa' when a horse or horses are charging the barrier. No sooner than he has said that, he lets them go, which is a tad confusing for all concerned. Will you ever get perfection? No. Unfortunately like many things, people (particularly punters who lose) tend to remember the mistakes and forget the good ones, and there are many of the latter.

[Brodie]

3 hours ago, pete cook said:

As far as the mobile in Race 1 the other night, it was all done per the Rules, galloping horses left behind as long as they don't cause interference. As I think I said previously, slowing the gate down for them to catch up can be disastrous - how would you feel if it slowed up and the horse you were on hit the gate and galloped?

As for stands, (I love them by the way, warts and all), they have always been an issue. It is very difficult to get a horse that is hyped up and full of adrenalin to stand still. Add to that the human element of drivers trying to gain an advantage (aka doing their job) and it becomes an almost impossible job. I've been to more meetings (horsemen and starters) than I can recall where it was up for discussion. One meeting wants them to stand, the next suggests walk-ups, then it was, as long as all horses are pointing in the right direction, let them go. It's a bit like handicapping, an advantage to one horse can mean a disadvantage to another. There is no sure fix, unless you put them in starting gates, and that might cause a problem with wheels etc! There is some blame on some trainers, as there is not the emphasis on educating horses to begin that there was when there were no mobiles, although training at home doesn't always ensure success on race day. but having owned and trained a horse that was renowned as a safe and fast beginner, he played up twice in a row and ended up on the unruly for 3 starts, much to my angst. Each starter has their own habits. If you listen, you will sometimes hear them call out 'whoa' when a horse or horses are charging the barrier. No sooner than he has said that, he lets them go, which is a tad confusing for all concerned. Will you ever get perfection? No. Unfortunately like many things, people (particularly punters who lose) tend to remember the mistakes and forget the good ones, and there are many of the latter.

Thanks for your reply Peter.

Personally believe that HRNZ dont really care about the standard of the starts, or they would be getting it sorted with RIB, dont think Integrity should be in the name!

Even though we could not see all of the pre runup on Trackside, highly doubt that all the unruly horses were playing up in the run up, they certainly werent when we saw them?

They were clearly too far back when the starter took off and the mobile was fair motoring and gave those horses no show to catch up!

Maintain that it was a very poorly performed effort from the mobile, where you expect a far better start if you are expecting punters to wager!

The reality is that HRNZ and RIB dont think they are ever wrong and yet they hammer drivers for trying too hard to win!!

Ask CJ I am sure he would agree

Edited March 30 by Brodie

[pete cook]

I'm pretty much out of the loop these days, so I don't know what HRNZ thinks. Pretty sure they had another starters meeting last year to try and get uniformity at least, but not sure that's changed much. The RIB put out a pages long guidelines on starting procedures about 3 years ago, not sure that changed much either. In any case, they're much more focussed on drivers chatting to their horses at the start these days. Like I said, perfection isn't possible, but there is always room for improvement.

I do know that that the subject was discussed at length at a recent open meeting held by the Canterbury Trainers & Drivers in Canterbury, with CJ in attendance

The starter used to help out at CJ's stables a few years ago, not sure if he still does. I presume they are still good mates.

[the galah]

16 hours ago, Brodie said:

Thanks for your reply Peter.

Personally believe that HRNZ dont really care about the standard of the starts, or they would be getting it sorted with RIB, dont think Integrity should be in the name!

Even though we could not see all of the pre runup on Trackside, highly doubt that all the unruly horses were playing up in the run up, they certainly werent when we saw them?

They were clearly too far back when the starter took off and the mobile was fair motoring and gave those horses no show to catch up!

Maintain that it was a very poorly performed effort from the mobile, where you expect a far better start if you are expecting punters to wager!

The reality is that HRNZ and RIB dont think they are ever wrong and yet they hammer drivers for trying too hard to win!!

Ask CJ I am sure he would agree

the point i rasied about that start in another thread was c dalgety was positioned well ahead of the other 3 who started off the ur,one can only assume because of two reasons,firstly, the other ur horses were going a bit rough in their gates,or my guess would be,dalgety simply was more switched on  and positioned his horse better when the starter called them up.After all, the 2 that drew outside him would have turned into line ahead of dalgety,but he still was able to get well in front of them.

I have in the past pointed out a few times how inconsisten previous starters were.

for example,with mr lamb,we once had a horse sent to the ur.The stipes just said after the race,your now on the ur. I said to them,hang on the starter called out right in the aborted start. But that made no difference.. Well i went home ,looked at the video and you could clearly hear lamb say right,then immmediately hang on and what happened was another horse  pushed the tape forward and our horse only moved after that..Horses aren't stupid.

then,lamb put us on the inside of the other ur horses.

well then i started watching what other starters did on trackside. Lamb would send a horse to the ur and place them on the inside of the ur horses for stands,but not mobiles,but the north island starter did the opposite when it came to stands..I watched,started topics on here about it,yet for a few years there was no consistency whatsoever in how starters in nz dealt with that.

Then i also complained one day when we drew 2 on the ur in a mobile race.I had expected the horse who drew 1 would start from behind the 5 horse,but that horses driver insisted on starting behind the 8 horse.My point was ,wheres the consistency.why was i being disadvanteged because another drivver could chop and change,depending on what suited them.Even now,you see some drivers will some days start behind the 5 horse then with the same horse start wider and force a horse drawn outside them wider.I think the moral of that story is for the outside ur horse to get up qicker and force the inside ur down,but that doesn't seem to happen. 

peter lamb was not a great starter. He would make them all  stand some days and you would have a horse stand perfectly,sometimes for a minute or two,then when the ones playing up who had been well supported come in and yours moves back he would let them go.

one day we had a horse start off the ur,he was a favorite,but  just before they sarted he went the other way when turning in,his starters assistant yelled out hang on peter, and lamb yelled back,forget about him,so we startered about 70m behind.

another time, we had a horse,he stood perfectly for 2 1/2 minutes(i timed it off the video) off a mark,while the front liners pissed around as lamb tried to get them all to stand,then our horse swung around after 2/12 minutes of standing without moving,was facing the wrong way and despite our driver yelling out,he let them go. Again we were a well favoured horse,but lamb didn't care because of who we were..I lodged a protest and wanted us to be late scratched and the stipes ,said,that it was our horses manners.At least the current starter is doing his best to give everyone a fair start. 

The point i make is,there has never been a consistency in how all the starters start races.And there used to be at times an inconsistency in how they were policed,although that does seem to have improved in the south island in recent years.

so my personal take is its up to the drivers to do the best they can to position their horses And that is morwe the reason when it comes to canterbury starts.

Edited March 30 by the galah

[pete cook]

Please don't use Mr. Lamb as an example. I had a horse that ended up on the track as a result of his action and the race was called off. There is a good reason he is no longer here.

[Furlong]

It is just a reflection of today's society where very few want to do a good job at all times, be fair at all times and use some common sense. While we have got trainers not educating their horses good enough, drivers trying to cheat and stipes with no common sense because they are carried away with their own importance and have favourites, then nothing will change.

[pete cook]

A number of accusations, presumably based on facts?

[the galah]

43 minutes ago, pete cook said:

Please don't use Mr. Lamb as an example. I had a horse that ended up on the track as a result of his action and the race was called off. There is a good reason he is no longer here.

there was a starter from ashburton about 30-40 years ago who was the worst and most biased of them all. I think barber was his name ,but i could be wrong.

one day we had a horse in a race,and he put the green light on ,they travelled 200m,then when the favorite got checked at the winning post he blew the whistle. I remember the commentator saying,well this is very confusing,he clearly had the green light on and hes only called the false start because of what happened 200m after the start,everyones very confused.Then when our horse butted a starters assistant before the 2nd start we got stood down because of that. So we went to the ashburton trials and i was walking around at the start and barber started berating me about being allowed to start the horse at the trails.I got into a 'discussion' with him,telling him how about he did his  job properly and concentrate on that  instead of berating me.Well after winning that trial i made a point of going  another 400m more than normal after the finish,pulled up alongside him and told him at least one of us knows what they're doing and its not him.Well he always made a point of trying to give us an unfair start after that,but i would always have something to say to him when he did if i got the chance.

He got the sack after a race at oamaru where there was a small field,1 fell over and another driver got tipped out 100m before the satrtt,but he claimed to never have seen it and said it was a fair start.

the ashburton starter who took over from him i used to think was the best starter nz had at the time.

it also reminds me of mr escott,who became chief stipe.He was mates with barber. They worked together to pick on some people.I've told this story once before,but it illustrates just what an a ...hole escott was as a person.We turned up 90 minutes before the first trial which we were enetered in. Went to the birdacge to have our horse inspected and escott inspected some but then wondered off before doing ours. I followed him over and he said he was busy and would do ours in 10 minutes. Well 20 minutes later,i went over and nicely pointed out we were in the first trial and he said i've already told you,go away i will come and see you when hes ready. I told him what stall we were in. Well again i went back ,again the same thing. I said well how about inspect him after the trial as the others are on the track. He said no,don't go onto the track until i have seen you. Well he finally turned up with them starting to walk around before the start. They actually were lining up ,a field of about 10, before we got onto the track,when the new ashburton starter obviously spotted us coming onto the track in the distance. He turned them out of line  we went straight to the start. Well we won the trial and as we came off the track escott was waiting for us.Escott then walked beside me,warned me for being late onto the track and that next time he would order us to  be scratched.escott was someone who really didn't deserve anyones respect.I could tell many similar stories about my experiences dealing with escott and one or two others involving barber,but i best to keep those to myself.

as i've said before,there have been some really good starters.  The ashburton man who took over from barber i thought very fair. i even remeber jack mulcahy. He was the ebst of them all and a very fair man to evryone and very well respected by everyone because of how he did things and treated people.

i actually think ou5 current canterbury starter does a good job myself and gets blamed fior a few things that aren't his fault and as i've said,i always think hes trying to be fair. I know some have suggested he has his favorites,i personally don't belive that. I think its more a case of some drivers who are out there all the time are just really switched on to the routine that leads to when a race is started. 

Edited March 30 by the galah

[pete cook]

You're dragging me down memory lane big time. Mr. Escott and I used to have regular 'discussions' on various topics. Actually, he used to ring me regularly after he retired, until I got my Amateur license (which he hated). I haven't heard from him since.

I think the Ashburton starter was Phil Heywood, a really nice guy, and not a bad trainer either. Sadly no longer with us.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, pete cook said:

You're dragging me down memory lane big time. Mr. Escott and I used to have regular 'discussions' on various topics. Actually, he used to ring me regularly after he retired, until I got my Amateur license (which he hated). I haven't heard from him since.

I think the Ashburton starter was Phil Heywood, a really nice guy, and not a bad trainer either. Sadly no longer with us.

phil heywood ,yes i think that was his name,he took over after barber.

i remember heywood and the starters  assistants he used at the likes of ashburton always were doing their best to help everyone out there,no favorites,just try and get everyone to have a fair start.His mobile starts at  ashburton were  the best in new zealand. Not sure whether they had a longer run in to the start,but horses just seened to enjoy the gradual increase in speed.. His stands also always good. 

as to escott.i remember when i went for my licences. They rejected my trials licence applications 3 times and the bloke at hrnz actually said to me after the last rejection,the systems  unfair because its often who you know or who your related to and whether the stipes like you or not and that he had proposed a new system where they actually saw you drive and whether you could judge speed. i applied again when that change came in and Mr mulchay recommended i get myt rials licence..It tok me over 10 years to get that.

Well then when i apllied for my raceday licence they turned that down and escott contacted me and said don't apply again. Well i contacted the aussie mr carrigg,who was head stipe and he said,ignore what mr escott had said,that he'd seen me drive many times and to reapply. So i did. Well then escott saw me the following week where we had a horse starting at the trials. He seemed very annoyed i had spoken to mr carrigg.  The trial field was a 12 horse trial field. Escott told me,i had to begin first,take a trail,then with 1000m to run push off.Well i did everything escott said,the driver who i pushed out turned seemed confused as to why i pushed him out,but everything was done fine.Then when i got back in escott said to me,yeah i did what he said ok,but don't bother wasting my time with my application as driving at the trials was like playing club rugby and the races was provincial level. and that i didn't have it and he would never support me getting a licence.

of course i knew escott was nothing but a bully so i rang mr carrigg and he said,ignore what escott had said and continue with the application.So i did .

well escott had told me twice before to not bother sending any videos i had of my trials drives. I had all the videos. he had also told me you can't turn up for your licence hearing.

well a few days before,i got a call from the licensing lady at hrnz. Shes always been a very nice,very helpful lady to deal with. Anyway,she asked me,am i going to attend. Of course i said i've been told by mr escott you can't.Then she said,of course you can and why don't you bring up any videos of any of your drives.

so i did. I sat outside the room before they called me in and i could hear through the walls mr escott tell the licensing committiee what a loser i was and i should never get a licence . Then they invited me in. I said i have videos,i showed the first one and then mr carrigg said,thats enough,he'd seen me drive many times . I was told to leave the room. Again i could hear escott rubbishing me.

then they brought me back in. Mrs pope was the chair and she said,well i have to tell you it wasn't a unanimous decision. Then she said mr carrigg,mr j mulchay,mr j smolenski had all voted that i get my licence and so had she. Then she told me mr escott and p ryder(who was escotts mate), had voted against me. congragulations and good luck.

from that day on,escott picked on me at every opportunity he could. i learnt how to push his buttons and often told him,go on,charge me then,then i would drive off.. We had  ridiculous inquiries when we won a couple of times,he tried all sorts of tactics to get me,but he never did.I remember sitting in one inquiry,he said to the driver he was questioning,that i had forced him to run in onto the horse inside him. The driver replied no,how could that happen when i was clearly half a length behind him.Escott then said to him,well you do realise we will penalise you if it wasn't me,and the driver replied,you want me to say something that you can clearly see from the video never happened,so why are you asking me this.It was pathetic but it was typical escott. Ir was all just to take the gloss off the win.

when escott became chief stipe he then had one particular stipe who he would use to pick on people.I had no respect at all for him or her.absolutely none.

anyway,i've rambled on a bit,but i've told that story for a reason

my point is,i read what furlong has said,and maybe hes had some bad experiences ,i'm not knocking his opinion,everyones experiences are different,but to me reality is most these days don't know how lucky they are compared to how some were treated in the past. These days you have stipes who actually try and treat you with respect,the starter is doing his best in what is a very difficult job as are his assistants.

Edited March 31 by the galah

[pete cook]

That's a sad horror story but agreed, Neil certainly had his favourites and could be a bully. Michael Carrigg, another that was taken far too early. I rarely go to funerals, but I went to his out at Rangiora, I think. Was probably the best stipe I've known, certainly in Canterbury anyway. The current crop are a result of Cameron George (yes, that one) being brought in to set things up when the stipes and JCA were set up as separate bodies by Kristy Macdonald QC. He was big on mutual respect although like anything that isn't always perfect!

Before Neil, there was Peter McKenzie who was a tough cookie, and didn't care if anyone disagreed with him. 

As for they starters, trust me they know they can be unpopular, but as you say, it's a difficult job dealing with up to 16 different people and horses at the same time, all with different ideas, opinions and habits.