Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 19 minutes ago, curious said: That would certainly be a long way from a debacle of epic proportions and as you say might be the sensible thing to do. I would say water supply and cost is an issue both at Ellerslie and Trentham. The type of issues that they are experiencing at Ellerslie has occurred in a few newly renovated or developed tracks in OZ. Some of those issues were the wrong grass mix and racing too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Where did you see or hear that either track had water supply issues. I haven't and you'd think that would have been a significant element for ATR to have included in the Strathayr plans given the substantial budget for that. Are you saying it wasn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 19 minutes ago, curious said: Where did you see or hear that either track had water supply issues. I haven't and you'd think that would have been a significant element for ATR to have included in the Strathayr plans given the substantial budget for that. Are you saying it wasn't? Both Auckland and Wellington/Hutt Cities have water supply issues and high charges. Does it not follow that there may be a flow on effect to the management of a very large piece of turf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Shouldn't happen on a StrathAyr. Every other StrathAyr in the world struggles to get firmer than a G4 hence race times are never super fast. It isn't a football field. I would say that the irrigation has been inconsistent and mismanaged. Of course we'd never consider irrigating on raceday like they do in OZ. Anyway if your comments and those that you have heard from those close to the action are anything to go by then part of the problem is they haven't changed their track management processes to match the new track system. Rain during the day wasn't an unknown - it was forecast. My understanding is the Jockeys were divided in their opinions. Should they have relied on their opinions anyway when there was sufficient evidence on video of the slipping problem. More than was apparent at Trentham which WAS abandoned. I'm not making things up or lying. However I doubt you have as much inside information as you infer. So Pot Kettle Black. Perhaps you might want to listen/watch this: Weigh in starts off very positively....what is the KEY portion I need to listen to ! You twist words in your replies to suit your cynicism...It was a first time use of track with rain during day. And yes the forecast was pretty much bang on ! The track, the irrigation and track management in the unique Auckland climate [30% less sunshine hours in 2023 ] was / is something new to the Club. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first ! Give em a chance to get up to speed .... their nervousness prior to the new track opening was very obvious ,they hadn't done it before. The grass was never going to be 100% once the rain came on day ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Both Auckland and Wellington/Hutt Cities have water supply issues and high charges. Does it not follow that there may be a flow on effect to the management of a very large piece of turf? I don't know which is why I'm asking. You seem to know. Ellerslie put in a large stormwater reticulation pond as part of the $50m track rebuild. I thought that was to make their irrigation supply largely self-sufficient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 9 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: Weigh in starts off very positively....what is the KEY portion I need to listen to ! You twist words in your replies to suit your cynicism...It was a first time use of track with rain during day. And yes the forecast was pretty much bang on ! Did you read the Stipes report? Are you making excuses? Report 2024-01-27 Ellerslie.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 16 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: The track, the irrigation and track management in the unique Auckland climate [30% less sunshine hours in 2023 ] was / is something new to the Club. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first ! Give em a chance to get up to speed .... their nervousness prior to the new track opening was very obvious ,they hadn't done it before. The grass was never going to be 100% once the rain came on day ! Stop making excuses. It is a state of the art track that has been many years in planning, design and implementation. I'm sure even the Club Management wouldn't be happy with how it performed. As long as the party was good stuff the horses that have to run on it! In my opinion that is the single biggest reason why racing is struggling in this country - lack of investment in good tracks and good management of them. As for the sunshine hours BS I suggest you stick to cost accouting rather than horticultural or agricultural science!!! The farmers I've talked to have had a great season grass wise therefore their stock have done well. THE TRACK ON KM DAY AT ELLERSLIE WAS OFF - I guess you admit that but blame the weather! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 17 minutes ago, curious said: I don't know which is why I'm asking. You seem to know. Ellerslie put in a large stormwater reticulation pond as part of the $50m track rebuild. I thought that was to make their irrigation supply largely self-sufficient? Is it fully functional? From your earlier comment inconsistent irrigation was suggested by officials as part of the problem (not the weather). What size is the stormwater reticulation pond? How many thousand litres? A lot of water doesn't go very far. 250,000 litres to put 25mm of irrigation on 1 hectare. An 8 lane 400m track is 0.5 hectares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Is it fully functional? From your earlier comment inconsistent irrigation was suggested by officials as part of the problem (not the weather). What size is the stormwater reticulation pond? How many thousand litres? A lot of water doesn't go very far. 250,000 litres to put 25mm of irrigation on 1 hectare. An 8 lane 400m track is 0.5 hectares. Don't know the details sorry other than what I read. Water is an essential element for any racing surface, to which end a 20-million litre reservoir has been installed in the Ellerslie infield. “The new big pond will collect an estimated 96 per cent of all water that falls on the track –both irrigation and rain,” Wilcox explained. “That will be recycled for irrigation back onto the track, and while it does not make us self-sufficient during a protracted dry spell, it’s a major uplift on what we previously had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 5 minutes ago, curious said: The new big pond will collect an estimated 96 per cent of all water that falls on the track –both irrigation and rain An interesting number - 96%. That doesn't quite equate with what I thought the field capacity would be of the new soil system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Did you read the Stipes report? Are you making excuses? Report 2024-01-27 Ellerslie.pdf 206.2 kB · 2 downloads Come on Chief , in your willingness to discredit me you are going out of your way sending mixed messages and trying to appear as if you know life's secrets and are eager to impart your knowledge which is hardly expert knowledge. You tell me to watch a Weigh-in show for an hour featuring key player in this saga CEO Paul W ,but dont give me the key time to tune in , I hardly ever would watch any of this...I sometimes watch a little of the Harness show. Then you tell me to read the Stipes report which I told you I already had ,plus I was there on the day and during most of the earlier trials,jump outs and track gallops on 19 January where 2 x horses galloped wide out on course proper. Stipes report....weather overcast becoming showery. Little of note until R3...Tevere briefly lost footing @ 600m After R4 it noted Holmanz briefly lost footing at 600m, so Tevere film revisited. It also noted that some riders mounts were shifting in ground...they looked at footage . The Stipes met with riders who agreed to carry on riding. FOOTNOTE...normally in cases on concern there would be considerable debate among the jockeys and as the two above cases of loose footing were at the 600m a group would go out on track and investigate. The show went on....ALL top jockeys and trainers happy to race......and with a great deal of urgency I might add. Times were fast etc. After race 5 and/or next day Legarto's trainer KKelso said he disappointed in shift track etc...he had been very pleased the previous day on the track. His mare was outridden , had her chance and ran a good second behind a very good horse ! Then in R6 Pendragon lost footing entering the straight.....again ran a good second behind a very good horse. Being there I able to make my own observations. To me the rider contributed to its movement back toward the rail after drifting wide ! During and after the day I spoke to a few jockeys and trainers, including one who had briefly lost its footing and it never mentioned. Our syndicate horse ran OK ,could have done better but no excuses ! The track played out exactly as I thought it would before hand so hence I not surprised that when drizzle came there were a couple of mentions of unsure footing...riding was very competitive with fast times. First day of any NEW house,building ,business ,sportsground ,always has some teething problems........the chance of the new track having a perfect opening was very slim. But a great crowd and betting records smashed......great racing , no one or horse injured. One day- to- day propisition lame ! Ask yourself will this matter in a year from now ? ps have you read the Messara report in its entirety yet ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 2 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: Come on Chief , in your willingness to discredit me you are going out of your way sending mixed messages and trying to appear as if you know life's secrets and are eager to impart your knowledge which is hardly expert knowledge. In your opinion. 3 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: You tell me to watch a Weigh-in show for an hour featuring key player in this saga CEO Paul W ,but dont give me the key time to tune in , I hardly ever would watch any of this...I sometimes watch a little of the Harness show. But you are constantly inferring you are "in the know"...and have "contacts"... 4 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: Being there I able to make my own observations. To me the rider contributed to its movement back toward the rail after drifting wide ! What's being there got to do with anything? The Stipes viewed all the vision - did you have access to that? Arguably being able to watch in HD from the lounge and pause/rewind after the race would give those of us NOT there a greater appreciation of what was happening. The Stipes report clearly states there was problems - if there weren't why the hell bother meeting with the Jockey's? 7 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: The track played out exactly as I thought it would before hand so hence I not surprised that when drizzle came there were a couple of mentions of unsure footing...riding was very competitive with fast times. "Exactly as (you) thought it would" - really and on what did you base that "thought" - the trials went OK did they not? Many trainers weren't happy with the shifty nature of the track - that's a fact. Don't know who you were talking to. 9 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: FOOTNOTE...normally in cases on concern there would be considerable debate among the jockeys and as the two above cases of loose footing were at the 600m a group would go out on track and investigate. The show went on....ALL top jockeys and trainers happy to race......and with a great deal of urgency I might add. Times were fast etc. Then why was Trentham abandoned? One horse slipped when tiring under pressure. I gather consistency isn't one of your strong points. But it's pleasing that you had such a great time drinking all the Koolaid. Of course you don't realise that you are debating with yourself just for the sake of it as you admit that the track was off! But it was to be expected in your words. I don't know anyone that expected the new multi-million dollar track to play the way it did. But then obviously I don't move in the rarified air that you do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 12 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: ps have you read the Messara report in its entirety yet ? When it came out and I found it extremely flawed as were the subsequent actions of Dean Mckenzie. Many would agree with me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 So @TAB For Ever what do your inside sources say the chances are that the February 17 Meeting will go ahead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: When it came out and I found it extremely flawed as were the subsequent actions of Dean Mckenzie. Many would agree with me. But it gave those in NZ racing the courage and confidence to trigger some CHANGE ! Few people like change and with all the personal bias in NZ Racing it was unlikely to happen. Now reaping some benefits from the changes ! Basically NZ RAcing was insolvent and going nowhere ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 40 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said: But it gave those in NZ racing the courage and confidence to trigger some CHANGE ! Few people like change and with all the personal bias in NZ Racing it was unlikely to happen. Now reaping some benefits from the changes ! Basically NZ RAcing was insolvent and going nowhere ! But what changes have been driven from the Mesara Report that actually benefits NZ Racing? You can't include Ellerslies new track that was driven by necessity and required the selling off of their own land to do it. You can't argue the AWT's have been a success or were necessary. They come from Winston's PGF trough. Selling the TAB license to Entain - well as you rightly point out the TAB was insolvent, was bailed out by the Government like a charity and McKenzie did nothing to change that. So WHO has the courage to change? Certainly not those in the chosen elite as they haven't changed anything. Trentham track is stuffed, as is Awapuni and Riccarton. How many of those Clubs with excellent tracks that have been deprived of racedays actually handed over assets to the Central racing Administration? Abandonments haven't stopped. So what actually has changed? Other than a Corporate raider spending way over what they earn in revenue to acquire the NZ wagering monopoly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 39 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Other than a Corporate raider spending way over what they earn in revenue to acquire the NZ wagering monopoly? I am dubious, but you have to wait 3 to 5 years before you can make that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 Just now, curious said: I am dubious, but you have to wait 3 to 5 years before you can make that claim. What the claim that they are spending more on racing than they are earning in revenue from racing? Wasn't the Pokie license keeping us afloat and that has been relinquished? What's changed in less than a year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: What the claim that they are spending more on racing than they are earning in revenue from racing? Wasn't the Pokie license keeping us afloat and that has been relinquished? What's changed in less than a year? When was the pokie licence relinquished? I didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 And your claim was in relation to "revenue" not exclusively "revenue from racing". Make up your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 19 minutes ago, curious said: When was the pokie licence relinquished? I didn't think so. I thought that was part of the deal subject to legislation being enacted. Will the projected net increase be more than what is lost? 11) What is the position with the proposed removal of TAB “pokies”? TAB NZ currently holds a class 4 gaming licence, allowing it to operate pokie machines in some of its TAB retail sites. Profits from those machines are applied to a few purposes, namely amateur sports body grants and to fund the Racing Integrity Board. At present, TAB NZ will continue to hold its gaming licence and retain and distribute profits, under the Entain arrangement. However, the Government has announced that, should the legislative net proceed, TAB NZ would need to relinquish its gaming licence. This would see the removal of gaming machines from all TAB sites. There is much water to go under the bridge regarding this issue and nothing will change at present. Nonetheless, should this eventuate, it is evident that the potential upside from the legislative net would far exceed current gaming machine revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 14 minutes ago, curious said: And your claim was in relation to "revenue" not exclusively "revenue from racing". Make up your mind. Right so you agree then that revenue from racing alone won't be enough to match the promised revenue to the racing codes. So it must come from somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 Don't get be wrong. I think most of the new initiatives are great with regard to stake funding. However I've seen this many times before over the last 30 years. Every time an increase in stakes particularly at the top end hasn't arrested the decline nor fixed the fundamental infrastructure issues. With the latter primarily tracks and facilities to safely train horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 56 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Right so you agree then that revenue from racing alone won't be enough to match the promised revenue to the racing codes. So it must come from somewhere else. It wasn't enough to cover the pre-Entain funding to the codes. Doubt anyone expects it to going forward. Not sure what that has to do with the venue for the next ATR meeting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 30 minutes ago, curious said: It wasn't enough to cover the pre-Entain funding to the codes. Doubt anyone expects it to going forward. Not sure what that has to do with the venue for the next ATR meeting though. The issue that bothers me. All this time and money gets spent on tracks, but within the first two weeks, there are problems and there are meetings like Hastings getting abandoned, and talk of transferring Ellereslie.. it doesn't stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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