Synthetic report released :)

[curious]

1 minute ago, Special Agent said:

Do you think the questions and problems have been addressed?

No. That will be up to NZTR and the respective clubs.

Edited June 5 by curious

[Special Agent]

On 6/5/2025 at 6:30 AM, curious said:

Anecdotal data indicates that 2 -3 runs on the synthetic surface are sufficient for the horse to acclimatise (adapt their gait) to the surface.

Because horses naturally run faster on the synthetic surface with longer strides (~20cm longer), it is anecdotally reported that acclimatisation runs should be conducted with the horses “on the bridle”.
This would provide sufficient load cycles to train the limb without exposure to peak forces

Reads to me like 2-3 runs under a hold on the surface is enough to fit a horse's anatomy for racing on the surface.  Are we to read a report as is, or are we supposed to read some other unknowns into the equation?

[curious]

21 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Reads to me like 2-3 runs under a hold on the surface is enough to fit a horse's anatomy for racing on the surface.  Are we to read a report as is, or are we supposed to read some other unknowns into the equation?

A bit more than the canter around that you suggested though. That is proposed, but it is noted that it is anecdotal. It is consistent with limited research cited on requirements for adaptation to firm surfaces and tighter turn radiuses though. Also, consistent with trends observed in the US where injury rates have declined on new synthetic surfaces over the first few years, presumably as horses adapt to them. Might also be part of the reason why Cambridge has much lower injury rates than the two newer synthetics.

It seems from my reading though that the report is quite clear that we have insufficient data to draw any clear conclusions about what is required for that adaptation to occur.

Horses can adjust to different surfaces by fine tuning how the tendons dampen the loading of the limb (Wilson et al., 2001). However, we currently lack data on how quickly a horse can readjust from working, or training, on one type of surface to a different surface (Bardin et al., 2021). Data from a cross-sectional survey of dressage horses indicates that horses habituate to a certain surface and may in the short-term lose the ability to respond positively to different surfaces if variety in training surfaces is not included as part of the routine training programme (Murray et al., 2010)

Edited June 5 by curious

[Special Agent]

32 minutes ago, curious said:

Data from a cross-sectional survey of dressage horses indicates that horses habituate to a certain surface and may in the short-term lose the ability to respond positively to different surfaces if variety in training surfaces is not included as part of the routine training programme (Murray et al., 2010)

I find this little section interesting.  Dressage action and speed is quite different to what we are talking about.  Variety in training surfaces seems important but, I'm not sure what variety is regularly on offer at Awapuni and Riccarton apart from swimming.

[curious]

1 minute ago, Special Agent said:

I find this little section interesting.  Dressage action and speed is quite different to what we are talking about.  Variety in training surfaces seems important but, I'm not sure what variety is regularly on offer at Awapuni and Riccarton apart from swimming.

They both have grass and sand/dirt tracks don't they as well as the synthetic?

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, curious said:

They both have grass and sand/dirt tracks don't they as well as the synthetic?

I don't know what the availability of any of their tracks are.  I read on here recently how Riccarton horses went to Rangiora for grass gallops.  Same goes for Awapuni to Foxton.

[Freda]

2 hours ago, curious said:

No. That will be up to NZTR and the respective clubs.

So we won't be holding our breath then?

[Special Agent]

Looking at today's Awapuni results, and taking into account information from the synthetic track report regarding how many times a horse needs to perform on the surface to acclimatise the limbs, why is it not a requirement to trial on synthetic before racing on it?

[curious]

23 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Looking at today's Awapuni results, and taking into account information from the synthetic track report regarding how many times a horse needs to perform on the surface to acclimatise the limbs, why is it not a requirement to trial on synthetic before racing on it?

Think that would be OTT based on the current info, especially when horses are working on it regularly. Just be an added cost for owners and a hassle for trainers?

Edited yesterday at 08:26 AM by curious

[Special Agent]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Think that would be OTT based on the current info, especially when horses are working on it regularly. Just be an added cost for owners and a hassle for trainers?

No they aren't all regularly working on the Awapuni synthetic.

So, what is more important?  The health and safety of the horse and rider, or less cost and hassle for the owner?

When horses travel from the Waikato for trials at Foxton, how does that argument stack up?

Does that mean we only pick the bits we like from the synthetic report?

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Special Agent said:

Looking at today's Awapuni results, and taking into account information from the synthetic track report regarding how many times a horse needs to perform on the surface to acclimatise the limbs, why is it not a requirement to trial on synthetic before racing on it?

You assume that "acclimatisimg" makes a difference.  There is no definitive evidence to say it does.  To quote from the report:

Anecdotal data indicates that 2 -3 runs on the synthetic surface are sufficient for the horse to acclimatise (adapt their gait) to the surface. 
Because horses naturally run faster on the synthetic surface with longer strides (~20cm longer), 

This statement in the report refers to "anecdotal" information i.e. feedback from trainers presumably.  

Horses stride longer on a Good 3 track should we demand that they "acclimatise" to those as well?  

I doubt any decent trainer would race a horse on Synthetic without having galloped them on it in training.  Demanding a horse trials on Synthetic BEFORE racing would be overkill and as @curious points out increased costs to owners for arguably no gain.

Regardless where are you going to trial when they keep cancelling them?

[Special Agent]

10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I doubt any decent trainer would race a horse on Synthetic without having galloped them on it in training.  Demanding a horse trials on Synthetic BEFORE racing would be overkill and as @curious points out increased costs to owners for arguably no gain.

I think you will find horses are lining up on the synthetic without even a canter once around on it.  I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.  There seem to be a number of bleeders, not sure if that's commonplace on the other two synthetics.

[curious]

Studies comparing different track surfaces have shown:

• Dirt tracks tend to have higher EIPH incidence and severity.

• Synthetic tracks (like Polytrack or Tapeta) are associated with lower stress on limbs and reduced concussion, which may reduce internal pressures that contribute to EIPH.

• Turf tracks often fall somewhere in between.

 

Reducing the speed of the polys for racing as recommended should reduce that further.

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, curious said:

Studies comparing different track surfaces have shown:

• Dirt tracks tend to have higher EIPH incidence and severity.

• Synthetic tracks (like Polytrack or Tapeta) are associated with lower stress on limbs and reduced concussion, which may reduce internal pressures that contribute to EIPH.

• Turf tracks often fall somewhere in between.

 

Reducing the speed of the polys for racing as recommended should reduce that further.

Give us a break @curious words like:

"tend" to have

"may" reduce

"often"...

may be the standard in the social sciences but hardly strong enough evidence to base policy on.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Special Agent said:

I think you will find horses are lining up on the synthetic without even a canter once around on it.  I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise.  There seem to be a number of bleeders, not sure if that's commonplace on the other two synthetics.

What if they are?  Isn't that at the trainers discretion?  All this anecdotal stuff doesn't amount to anything.  Essentially what you are suggesting is that Thoroughbred Racing falls down the same rabbit hole as the Greyhounds.

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

What if they are?  Isn't that at the trainers discretion?  All this anecdotal stuff doesn't amount to anything.  Essentially what you are suggesting is that Thoroughbred Racing falls down the same rabbit hole as the Greyhounds.

If your standardbred did most of it's long and fast work around the roads of North Canterbury would you trial it at Addington before racing there?

[curious]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Give us a break @curious words like:

"tend" to have

"may" reduce

"often"...

may be the standard in the social sciences but hardly strong enough evidence to base policy on.

I wasn't aware that any policy based on it was being proposed?

I was responding to @Special Agent wrt the incidence of epistaxis. There's no evidence to suggest that. What there is suggests the opposite.