LASIX...NZ Trainers using this DRUG?

[Thomass]

So WALLER uses it...largely unknown other than stable staff having an intimate knowledge...

But it got into the Public domain when he got caught Lasixing a neddy too close to race time...

Using it as a performance enhancer in training enabling a harder trading regime without extra bodily fluids...

Just how widespread is this WINNING practise among Kiwi trainers then?  

And the major question....if animal rights activists were aware of this 'drugging horses to perform better' malarkey...

...would the proverbial hit the fan even more?

Of course HK don't allow any use whatsoever....it affects Training performance and skewers the INTEGRITY of Punting Knowledge...

Time to outlaw its use here as well then...

[Chief Stipe]

Why do you keep posting the same shyte over and over and over again?  It is becoming tedious.

As with the previous times you have posted this rubbish all you have done is highlight your ignorance.

38 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Using it as a performance enhancer in training enabling a harder trading regime without extra bodily fluids

It isn't a performance enhancer but a preventative measure to counter bleeding or technically - Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage (EIPH).  Testing has shown that the majority (80-90%+) of modern thoroughbreds bleed (have EIPH) to some degree during high performance exercise.

Where is your evidence that it enables a harder training regime and any manipulation of body fluids?  Any trainer who doesn't balance the use of Lasix with additional fluid and electrolyte replacement feed regimes would fail. 

Given in the OZ jurisdiction you can't use Lasix pre-race like you can in the USA any potential performance enhancing effect has no impact on a race outcome.

If you believe that using it in training enhances performance for a distant race then you clearly don't understand the training of racehorses.  

Now please don't start waffling on about your Danehill theories either!

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Thomass said:

So WALLER uses it...largely unknown other than stable staff having an intimate knowledge...

But it got into the Public domain when he got caught Lasixing a neddy too close to race time...

Using it as a performance enhancer in training enabling a harder trading regime without extra bodily fluids...

Just how widespread is this WINNING practise among Kiwi trainers then?  

And the major question....if animal rights activists were aware of this 'drugging horses to perform better' malarkey...

...would the proverbial hit the fan even more?

Of course HK don't allow any use whatsoever....it affects Training performance and skewers the INTEGRITY of Punting Knowledge...

Time to outlaw its use here as well then...

Thommo, it's legal mate, legal......you just can't have it in your horses system Raceday, and heaps of horses wouldn't be racing without it's assistance, in fact the poor buggers would probably be at the knackers yard without it......

[Thomass]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why do you keep posting the same shyte over and over and over again?  It is becoming tedious.

As with the previous times you have posted this rubbish all you have done is highlight your ignorance.

It isn't a performance enhancer but a preventative measure to counter bleeding or technically - Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage (EIPH).  Testing has shown that the majority (80-90%+) of modern thoroughbreds bleed (have EIPH) to some degree during high performance exercise.

Where is your evidence that it enables a harder training regime and any manipulation of body fluids?  Any trainer who doesn't balance the use of Lasix with additional fluid and electrolyte replacement feed regimes would fail. 

Given in the OZ jurisdiction you can't use Lasix pre-race like you can in the USA any potential performance enhancing effect has no impact on a race outcome.

If you believe that using it in training enhances performance for a distant race then you clearly don't understand the training of racehorses.  

Now please don't start waffling on about your Danehill theories either!

Seriously mate...you're starting to get on my wick 

Your ignorance is so profound you could attach wings to it, paint it pink and re-name it Flying Pink Pig Ignorance...

From the Chief Vet at Racing Victoria, Brian Stewart...

“Furosemide definitely enhances racing performances beyond what might be expected by ameliorating EIPH”, said Stewart.

This is probably related to the loss of 10 to 15kg of excess body fluid, as Furosemide is a diuretic, but it also may be related to clearing mild pulmonary oedema, bronchodilation and by causing an alkalinizing effect similar to sodium bicarbonate.

 

“Training gallops performed on Furosemide will be influenced by the performance enhancing effects of the drug.

“This is the reason that the Hong Kong Jockey Club does not permit the use of Furosemide in training because customers believe that the recording of training gallops may be misleading if it is influenced by the use of the drug.”

So not only can you train them harder without 15 kgs of extra fluid but you can do so without the normal risks associated with the possibility of Bleeding...

Stop cut'n'pasting nonsense from cheating American training websites 

thanks

 

[Thomass]

5 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Thommo, it's legal mate, legal......you just can't have it in your horses system Raceday, and heaps of horses wouldn't be racing without it's assistance, in fact the poor buggers would probably be at the knackers yard without it......

That's right...but it's continued use only encourages Bleeders from Breeding and weakening the breed...

Why Germany bans them from Breeding of course...

Its time to get serious about animal welfare and using this drug is part and parcel of that consideration...

[Chief Stipe]

26 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Seriously mate...you're starting to get on my wick 

Your ignorance is so profound you could attach wings to it, paint it pink and re-name it Flying Pink Pig Ignorance...

From the Chief Vet at Racing Victoria, Brian Stewart...

“Furosemide definitely enhances racing performances beyond what might be expected by ameliorating EIPH”, said Stewart.

This is probably related to the loss of 10 to 15kg of excess body fluid, as Furosemide is a diuretic, but it also may be related to clearing mild pulmonary oedema, bronchodilation and by causing an alkalinizing effect similar to sodium bicarbonate.

 

“Training gallops performed on Furosemide will be influenced by the performance enhancing effects of the drug.

“This is the reason that the Hong Kong Jockey Club does not permit the use of Furosemide in training because customers believe that the recording of training gallops may be misleading if it is influenced by the use of the drug.”

So not only can you train them harder without 15 kgs of extra fluid but you can do so without the normal risks associated with the possibility of Bleeding...

Stop cut'n'pasting nonsense from cheating American training websites 

thanks

 

You definitely don't know anything about horse welfare or training one.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Thomass said:

That's right...but it's continued use only encourages Bleeders from Breeding and weakening the breed...

Why Germany bans them from Breeding of course...

Its time to get serious about animal welfare and using this drug is part and parcel of that consideration...

Bullshit.  Banning bleeders from breeding will not stop bleeding.  Physiologically a horse is not designed to do what we ask them to do.  

You want to kill racing completely?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

5 hours ago, Thomass said:

That's right...but it's continued use only encourages Bleeders from Breeding and weakening the breed...

Why Germany bans them from Breeding of course...

Its time to get serious about animal welfare and using this drug is part and parcel of that consideration...

Thommo there is no-one more serious than I when it comes to horse welfare, therefore I beg to differ with you on this. Most horses bleed after galloping, I'll rephrase.......at sometime in their career they will bleed. Some shallow and some deep, you gallop them in hot, humid weather, or smoke infused atmosphere such as we have over here at the moment and you increase the chances dramatically, as Taree was called off due to smoke.....

Anything that increases a horses longevity is a good thing, keeps owners in the game longer and employment for everyone, and at risk of sounding boring...it keeps arsehole slaughter men at the horse knackers idle, and that has to be bloody wonderful...IMO.

[Thomass]

So you'd be in favour of race day LASIX as well no doubt Joe?

Four hours before racing...no fluids allowed after that....racing dehydrated...otherwise it defeats the purpose...which is dangerous in itself

If the 'new' reality is having a "Social License" to race...as Bernie states....

...then the future is Drug free isn't it?

[Joe Bloggs]

No Thommo, I don't agree with LASIX Raceday, but hey, that's just me, other's do.........but hell's bell's it should be allowable as an aid to training, and it is. As I said, it's about longevity, and I'm yet to see a horse suffer adverse effects when it's used as it should be......most reputable vets agree,. Anyway, IMO and it's yours......let's find another issue to debate.

[Thomass]

Fair enough...

But if the alternative to racing with LASIX is the German version of selecting Superior genetics...I.e. banning Bleeders from Breeding...

...that's the best solution isn't it?

All it takes is a brave decision along the German lines of ferreting out inferior genes...certainly sounds macabre and they've tried that before with humans but failed miserably...

Imagine the general publics horror though if it got out that Waller was using Drugs on WINX...to make her piss a days urine out in an hour...just so they could train her harder?

But in the meantime before the ban on Bleeders breeding comes in...and LASIX remains the Drug of choice...

The Feds need to let Punters know who's USING Drugs and who's NOT in training...

Just like HK did...but then BANNED it...

Its called INTEGRITY of the product isn't it?

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Thomass said:

But if the alternative to racing with LASIX is the German version of selecting Superior genetics...I.e. banning Bleeders from Breeding...

 

90% of thoroughbreds bleed (experience EIPH) to some degree after high performance exercise.  Has Germany banned 90% of the horse population from breeding?  NO.  They have only banned those that bleed at a high level.  Will preventing those that bleed from breeding eliminate bleeding from the thoroughbred?  NO.  Why not?  

The genetic/heritability of EIPH is disputed.  The focus arises from a single research paper undertaken in the South African racing jurisdiction and published in 2004.  This paper has been widely critiqued and the assertions it made do not align with what we understand about Thoroughbred genetics.  That is the incidence of EIPH is too high to indicate solely a genetic influence as is its level of consistency.  With the latter there hasn't been a significant change in the incidence of bleeders over time.

Further some of the foundation sires of the thoroughbred species were known bleeders i.e. the condition has been in the species for over 300 years.  So trying to bred the condition out is not an option particularly when there is a physiological component to EIPH.  Race horses are not designed to be raced the way we race them.  Unfortunately that fact once in the hands of the anti horse racing mob will do more to kill racing than whether or not trainers use Lasix as a preventative measure.

Addendum:  The leading sire in Germany - Soldier Hollow has three lines of Northern Dancer blood.

2 hours ago, Thomass said:

Imagine the general publics horror though if it got out that Waller was using Drugs on WINX...to make her piss a days urine out in an hour...just so they could train her harder?

 

There is no evidence that I'm aware of that WINX was on Lasix.  Contrary to what the Chief Vet in VIC says there is little evidence to show that using LASIX is performance enhancing.  The assumption is based on the fact that LASIX is a diuretic that causes a horse to urinate 15 litres of water in an hour.  So it is assumed that 15 litres equates to 15kg less weight for the horse to carry therefore it goes faster!  This is only an assumption and no study has shown that this is the case.  I cannot see why a trainer would use LASIX frequently in training as the recovery to full hydration and electrolyte replacement can take up to 72 hours.  

Further if losing 15 litres (15kg) is performance enhancing then all a trainer needs to do is to not give a horse any water 24 hours before a race.  Why?  Because a horse naturally urinates 15 litres in a 24 hour period.

2 hours ago, Thomass said:

The Feds need to let Punters know who's USING Drugs and who's NOT in training...

 

Why does it matter what a trainer uses legally in training?  Like most of your "Blueprint" how does this information assist your punting strategy?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Mate the Germans don't always get it right........WW1, WW2, ring a bell? Look, the Chief got to the point in an earlier post, bleeding is not genetic, it's not congenital, it's brought on by extreme exertion, eg......galloping........I bet Winx was on drugs......legal drugs to help her, increase her longevity, it worked, I hope to fuck it works on mine, I don't have Waller's resources Thommo, bloody good luck to him as without the best vet science we are going to run second to the bloke that has....that's life......

[Thomass]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

90% of thoroughbreds bleed (experience EIPH) to some degree after high performance exercise.  Has Germany banned 90% of the horse population from breeding?  NO.  They have only banned those that bleed at a high level.  Will preventing those that bleed from breeding eliminate bleeding from the thoroughbred?  NO.  Why not?  

The genetic/heritability of EIPH is disputed.  The focus arises from a single research paper undertaken in the South African racing jurisdiction and published in 2004.  This paper has been widely critiqued and the assertions it made do not align with what we understand about Thoroughbred genetics.  That is the incidence of EIPH is too high to indicate solely a genetic influence as is its level of consistency.  With the latter there hasn't been a significant change in the incidence of bleeders over time.

Further some of the foundation sires of the thoroughbred species were known bleeders i.e. the condition has been in the species for over 300 years.  So trying to bred the condition out is not an option particularly when there is a physiological component to EIPH.  Race horses are not designed to be raced the way we race them.  Unfortunately that fact once in the hands of the anti horse racing mob will do more to kill racing than whether or not trainers use Lasix as a preventative measure.

Addendum:  The leading sire in Germany - Soldier Hollow has three lines of Northern Dancer blood.

There is no evidence that I'm aware of that WINX was on Lasix.  Contrary to what the Chief Vet in VIC says there is little evidence to show that using LASIX is performance enhancing.  The assumption is based on the fact that LASIX is a diuretic that causes a horse to urinate 15 litres of water in an hour.  So it is assumed that 15 litres equates to 15kg less weight for the horse to carry therefore it goes faster!  This is only an assumption and no study has shown that this is the case.  I cannot see why a trainer would use LASIX frequently in training as the recovery to full hydration and electrolyte replacement can take up to 72 hours.  

Further if losing 15 litres (15kg) is performance enhancing then all a trainer needs to do is to not give a horse any water 24 hours before a race.  Why?  Because a horse naturally urinates 15 litres in a 24 hour period.

Why does it matter what a trainer uses legally in training?  Like most of your "Blueprint" how does this information assist your punting strategy?

 

Results from an Australian research project suggest exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH) may have a genetic component. Scientists from the University of Sydney looked at the pedigrees and incidences of EIPH in 117,088 racing starts by Thoroughbred racehorses over a period of more than ten years. Bleeding from the nostrils (epistaxis), a manifestation of severe EIPH, was seen in 2,474 horses. Information was collected on a number of factors that might be related to epistaxis.

After analyzing data on the age, sex, and birth year for the horses, the researchers found that these factors were significantly related to epistaxis, though no significant correlation was found for track condition, track surface, length of race, trainer, jockey, number of horses in a race, or time of year.

There was strong evidence of a genetic influence in horses with epistaxis. When pedigrees for these horses were compared, several sire lines figured prominently among horses that bled. The researchers said this information could be helpful in managing horses with a tendency to have severe EIPH.

So that's the Genetic evidence...

And the PERFORMANCE ENHANCING peer reviewed evidence is EVERYWHERE

As for training with it....just ask HK Punters about it...clearly if some are on it in training and others not it can't be tolerated...

Its about INTEGRITY of the Punting Product...ok?

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Its about INTEGRITY of the Punting Product...ok?

How is about INTEGRITY?  What does a punter do with this information?  It is like most of your Blueprint it means NOTHING!

[Chief Stipe]

As for the paper you have produced I suspect it is similarly flawed as the 2004 paper.

Maybe there is a relationship between the "go fast" gene and EIPH?

The fact is that the condition has been prevalent in the breed for over 300 years.  It's incidence level hasn't changed significantly in that time.

Has the breeding rules in Germany altered the incidence in their racing?  I doubt it.

BTW do you know Germany's rules on racing breeders?  You may find some hypocrisy there.

It is extremely ironic that the leading sire in Germany for 3 of the last 4 years Soldier Hollow has 3 lines of Northern Dancer blood.  I recall one of your hypotheses was it all started with him.  Which it didn't.

You also cherry picked from the research paper and don't highlight that there are other factors that are NOT related to genetics.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Also the study only looked at grade 4 EIPH I.e. epistaxis which is the extreme where bleeding from both nostrils occur.

Research has also shown that certain environmental conditions and training regimes can be linked to EIPH.

Given that 90% of race horses experience EIPH to some degree the following statement makes sense:

“When we consider that the Thoroughbred (racing) population is closed (no out-crossing to other breeds), we must remain conscious of the fact that the breed may not be able to afford the loss of a large number of horses from the gene pool because this may also result in a loss of a number of good traits as well as genes for epistaxis,” Velie said.

[Joe Bloggs]

May and suggest Thommo, the Aussies love using these euphemism's......they are totally ambiguous .........I've been in the industry since God played fullback and most of the vet's I've discussed bleeders with are same page......bad luck.......some bad management, galloping the shit out of a suspected bleeder comes to an ill end...but bugger me, some trainers do!

[Chief Stipe]

Tend to agree Joe.  Some trainers are better at managing the endemic condition that others.

I owned a good galloper who bled.  I'm convinced that the dusty stable conditions contributed.  Also I'm also convinced that a two night stay in the Te Rapa stables didn't help.  The stalls hadn't had the sawdust changed for years and the level of dust in the air was horrendous.  After he raced he started coughing.

Was beaten narrowly after storming home and they broke 1:21.

Waller is obviously a detail man and I'm sure he would only use Lasix on a horse that had shown vulnerability.

The USA has a high incidence of breeders and it should be noted the environmental conditions that the horses are trained in must be a contributing factor.

[Joe Bloggs]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Tend to agree Joe.  Some trainers are better at managing the endemic condition that others.

I owned a good galloper who bled.  I'm convinced that the dusty stable conditions contributed.  Also I'm also convinced that a two night stay in the Te Rapa stables didn't help.  The stalls hadn't had the sawdust changed for years and the level of dust in the air was horrendous.  After he raced he started coughing.

Was beaten narrowly after storming home and they broke 1:21.

Waller is obviously a detail man and I'm sure he would only use Lasix on a horse that had shown vulnerability.

The USA has a high incidence of breeders and it should be noted the environmental conditions that the horses are trained in must be a contributing factor.

Gesus b krist...you must have been gutted, 1-21........it's just so hard to get a good horse, to lose one to bleeding and to have that ability is so bloody sad.....dust is the biggest factor in my opinion, I had sand walk in walk outs when I had my best horses.....no dust, and very forgiving......straw is just so expensive over 25 bucks a bail if you can get it, and dusty.......I can't understand people with sawdust bedding not wetting down at least twice a day and cleaning it out totally once a month Chief, and yet the lazy buggers scratch their head when their horse bleeds.....go figure.

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Gesus b krist...you must have been gutted, 1-21........it's just so hard to get a good horse, to lose one to bleeding and to have that ability is so bloody sad.....dust is the biggest factor in my opinion, I had sand walk in walk outs when I had my best horses.....no dust, and very forgiving......straw is just so expensive over 25 bucks a bail if you can get it, and dusty.......I can't understand people with sawdust bedding not wetting down at least twice a day and cleaning it out totally once a month Chief, and yet the lazy buggers scratch their head when their horse bleeds.....go figure.

Yep was gutted.  But gutted for lots of reasons.  Racing him brought to my attention what was wrong with NZ racing.

In 17 starts he returned a check 15 times.  5 wins.  Yet it was costing money to race him.  Go figure.

Only cost a raffle ticket and a $400 mare off the knackers truck to breed him.

Got offered big money after his second start win but that turned to custard because the other owner didn't want to sell.

Next win got another bigger offer and he went and hurt himself one day AFTER the original vet cert expired.

[Fred]

Why would you put a horse in a dusty box ? there are alternatives at Te Rapa  and if it was too cold for a yard why not dampen the sawdust ? Who was the trainer?

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Fred said:

Why would you put a horse in a dusty box ? there are alternatives at Te Rapa  and if it was too cold for a yard why not dampen the sawdust ? Who was the trainer?

Surely the bigger question is why didn't Te Rapa clean the boxes?

[Thomass]

19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How is about INTEGRITY?  What does a punter do with this information?  It is like most of your Blueprint it means NOTHING!

Just let the BP go already..it's clouding your already suspect judgments...

Im sorry for prefacing 'the bleedin' obvious' when commenting on your stuff..but ditto AGAIN

A neddy training on LASIX v one who's not...while acknowledging its "performance enhancing"

ask yaself Einstein...ffs

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Thomass said:

A neddy training on LASIX v one who's not...while acknowledging its "performance enhancing"

ask yaself Einstein...ffs

There is no evidence that it is performance enhancing and it can't be used immediately prior to a race!!!!  Do you want it published if a trainer doesn't give a horse water 24 hours before a race or a training gallop?