curious Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: Why are you refusing to acknowledge the 50% drop since '75?? I'm not refusing to acknowledge it although there are anomolies in the figures which for example included Puerto Rico until 2016. I'm saying that there is no evidence that Lasix has much if anything to do with that reduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: What a simply ridiculous comparison... What is ridiculous about it? You want to allow one tx for EIPH on racedays and not another even though you argue those txs are weakening the breed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Then take your horses to Hong Kong. Lock them up in an artificial sterile environment where they don't see or gallop on a grassy green paddock for the rest of their racing career if not the rest of their life. Hong Kong needs you Thomarse. Get your vaccination and go! Write this in sandscrit and take it to bed with you Horses in training are only allowed therapeutic medication with a qualified veterinary diagnosis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 28, 2021 Author Share Posted June 28, 2021 21 minutes ago, Thomass said: Write this in sandscrit and take it to bed with you Horses in training are only allowed therapeutic medication with a qualified veterinary diagnosis. What's your point? Hong Kong is a closed system. All the horses are stabled on the same piece of land. There is only one veterinary clinic. Are you proposing such a system for all racing jurisdictions? Regardless since you are right on top of all the treatments in Hong Kong can you post data on what therapeutics are used, how often they are prescribed and in what volumes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 49 minutes ago, Thomass said: Write this in sandscrit and take it to bed with you Horses in training are only allowed therapeutic medication with a qualified veterinary diagnosis. Isn't that already the case in most jurisdictions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 48 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: What's your point? Hong Kong is a closed system. All the horses are stabled on the same piece of land. There is only one veterinary clinic. Are you proposing such a system for all racing jurisdictions? Regardless since you are right on top of all the treatments in Hong Kong can you post data on what therapeutics are used, how often they are prescribed and in what volumes? Yea lets go...You and me.... 1 bag...and don't pack any of your Lefty protesting material on human rights You're going to love these thresholds MEDICATION AND PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES 1. The Rules are based upon participation free of prohibited substances and, therefore, all racehorses in Hong Kong are tested pre-race for such substances. Selected horses will also be tested post-race. 2. The Rules provide that "The Stewards shall have the power to withdraw at their discretion any declared runner if a pre-race test taken from such horse is reported by the Chief Racing Chemist or other chemist authorised by him as positive or potentially positive for the presence of any prohibited substance." 3. The Trainer may also be punished for breaching the Rules, in the event that a horse which has been declared to start in a race, is found to have been administered or been exposed to a prohibited substance. 4. Whilst in Hong Kong no treatment of any sort may be given to any racehorse without prior permission from the Club's veterinary surgeons who are the only persons authorised to administer all treatments. If in doubt about treatment of any sort, the horse's Trainer, or his authorised representative should contact one of the Club's veterinary surgeons. There are many specific Rules and Instructions concerning treatment of racehorses in Hong Kong and you should be aware that on the day it is to race, no horse shall receive any treatment which includes any injection, any form of inhalation therapy or nasogastric intubation. Also, intra-articular injections are not permitted within two (2) clear days of racing, where a clear day does not include the day of administration or the day of the race. This applies to the procedure itself and not the medications used, which may well have longer pre-race restrictions applied. No horse is permitted to be subject to a endoscopic examination on the day on which it is to race until after having competed in its race without the express approval of Executive Manager of the Department of Veterinary Regulation. The use of ice, ice packs or cold water treatment on a horse's limbs within two (2) hours of the scheduled time of the race is strictly prohibited. 5. It must be noted that any person providing veterinary services in Hong Kong must, as a statutory requirement, under the Veterinary Surgeons Registration Ordinance, be registered with the Veterinary Surgeons Board of Hong Kong. To obtain such registration may take several weeks. Should a horse's connections anticipate that they may require the services of their own, or a specialist veterinary surgeon, then application to the Veterinary Surgeons Board of Hong Kong must be made at least four (4) weeks prior to such services being required. 6. It should be emphasised that all treatments given to, or procedures carried out on, a horse by a visiting veterinary surgeon, who has been properly registered in Hong Kong, shall be supervised by a Club veterinary surgeon. 7. The prohibited substances under the Club's Rules are: a) Substances capable at any time of causing an action or effect, or both an action and effect, within one or more of the following mammalian body systems: the nervous system the cardiovascular system the respiratory system the digestive system the urinary system the reproductive system the musculoskeletal system the blood system the immune system except for licensed vaccines against infectious agents the endocrine system b) Endocrine secretions and their synthetic counterparts c) Masking agents d) Oxygen carriers e) Agents that directly or indirectly affect or manipulate gene express. Prohibited substances below the following thresholds are not actionable: Threshold name Threshold Arsenic 0.3 microgram total arsenic per millilitre in urine Boldenone 0.015 microgram free and conjugated boldenone per millilitre in urine from male horses (other than geldings) Carbon dioxide 36 millimoles available carbon dioxide per litre in plasma Dimethyl sulphoxide 15 micrograms dimethyl sulphoxide per millilitre in urine, or 1 microgram dimethyl sulphoxide per millilitre in plasma Estranediol in male horses (other than geldings) 0.045 microgram free and glucuroconjugated 5a-estrane-3b, 17a-diol per millilitre in urine. Hydrocortisone 1 microgram hydrocortisone per millilitre in urine Methoxytyramine 4 micrograms free and conjugated 3-methoxytyramine per millilitre in urine Salicylic acid 750 micrograms salicylic acid per millilitre in urine, or 6.5 micrograms salicylic acid per millilitre in plasma Testosterone 0.02 microgram free and conjugated testosterone per millilitre in urine from geldings, or 0.055 microgram free and conjugated testosterone per millilitre in urine from fillies and mares (unless in foal) Theobromine 2 micrograms theobromine per millilitre in urine The conjugated substance is the substance that can be liberated from conjugates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 26 minutes ago, curious said: Isn't that already the case in most jurisdictions? Of course....how's your comprehension skills today wee c?....any day Thats why she said "BEST PRACTICE AROUND THE WORLD" NOT USA ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 28, 2021 Author Share Posted June 28, 2021 28 minutes ago, Thomass said: You're going to love these thresholds Don't see any picograms there Thomarse. So who got what and how much in the last month in Hong Kong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 51 minutes ago, Thomass said: NOT USA So, you think in the US they get prescription drugs without a prescription or them being supplied by a vet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 No...in the Druggiest Drug country of the World... ...the 'trainer' simply tells the 'Vet' how it's gunna be ...you only have to look at the disgraceful use of thyroxine... ...where 3 'Vets' wrote out 80% of the scripts to know what goes down NZTR should be going down the root of licensing approved Vets...similar to race day...after the recent positive swabs... ...entirely avoidable positives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: NZTR should be going down the root of licensing approved Vets...similar to race day...after the recent positive swabs... ...entirely avoidable positives Which ones are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 So NZTR's commitment to 'therapeutics' is just a bunch of words... ...Lip service et el... ...no rules in place...just leave it up to a 'trainer' to decide if a horse in constant pain is best served by living off shit like Bute...and other NSAIDS A desperate need then to have rules in place and NZTR appointed Vets to approve therapeutics without being on a constant drug regime New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing’s vision for thoroughbred welfare “A thoroughbred should be provided a good life, with the care and conditions that will allow the horse to thrive and perform to its natural abilities.” New Zealand is a signatory to Article 6 of the IFHA International Agreement on Breeding Racing and Wagering, which sets out provisions governing the use of prohibited substances and recuperation: Racehorses are prohibited from racing with any prohibited substance in their bodies All therapies for horses involved in racing or race training, including rest periods, treatments, and pharmaceuticals, should be based upon a specific diagnosis, administered in the context of a valid and transparent owner-trainer-veterinarian relationship, and given in the interests of the horse’s health and welfare Following any therapy given to a racehorse, a sufficient period should elapse prior to racing such that any therapeutic pharmaceuticals are no longer present and are not capable of giving the horse an advantage nor potentially detrimental to its welfare. Prohibited substances New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing bans the use of any substance that influences a horse’s speed, stamina or courage in racing. Drugs must not be allowed to modify the racing performance of the horse, adversely impact on its welfare or conceal genetic or acquired conditions. This includes substances such as alkalinising agents (bicarbonates), hormones, peptides and anabolic steroids that could be administered in ‘out of competition’ training periods to improve a horse’s physique and conditioning. Any confirmed detection of prohibited substances or metabolites of prohibited substances will result in the horse being disqualified from the race and, in most cases, will result in sanctions on the trainer. These sanctions are usually a combination of suspension and fines. Therapeutic drug use Horses are inspected pre- and post-race by Stipendiary Stewards and the race day veterinarian to ensure they are fit to race. Horses must not race under the effect of any pain killer, in an effort to avoid prevent horses racing while injured. After any veterinary treatment, horses must have sufficient time to recuperate before competing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...no rules in place...just leave it up to a 'trainer' to decide if a horse in constant pain is best served by living off shit like Bute...and other NSAIDS Don't you see the hypocrisy and contradiction in what you are posting? You are saying don't administer therapeutic treatments to treat pain i.e. leave a horse in pain. It is becoming more and more obvious that you are part of the Anti-Racing movement and have no compassion for a racehorse at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Don't you see the hypocrisy and contradiction in what you are posting? You are saying don't administer therapeutic treatments to treat pain i.e. leave a horse in pain. It is becoming more and more obvious that you are part of the Anti-Racing movement and have no compassion for a racehorse at all. Rubbish.... .."should be based on a specific diagnosis" Does NOT mean continually using 'therapeutics' throughout a campaign as can happen now... Theres no "compassion" in that AT ALL NZTR need to take control of the "owner, trainer, Vet relationship" to avoid any non compassion scenarios... Obviously if a horse is experiencing continual problems it should be rested Yet you want the option of continual NASAID's.... ZERO "compassion" there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 34 minutes ago, Thomass said: NZTR need to take control of the "owner, trainer, Vet relationship" to avoid any non compassion scenarios... What you want NZTR to train them as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: Yet you want the option of continual NASAID's.... Where have I advocated continual use of NSAID's? If you want a completely closed system like Hong Kong then go to there. I know which environment I'd rather see my horses trained in - OZ and NZ. WINX and Verry Elleegant look very happy horses to me. Thomarse you are a fraud. You have no compassion for the Equine athlete and want the industry closed down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) After Neasham admitted trainers ROUTINELY give NSAIDS after Tuesady fast work you said Which reinforces the point that I've made about the elite Trainers being proactive in the administration of medication as preventative measures. The other point I made about Vets being contracted to governing bodies such as HK is the fact ZAAKI's Vet OVERPROSCRIBED this Drug returning a positive pre race Youd NEVER get a contracted Vet doing that Witness Oughahan's recent positive here...again an out of touch Vet Youve admitted you love drugs, whips and ANYTHING that forces a Thoroughbred to go as fast as possible under as much pressure as possible... ...and you see nothing wrong with the likes of WINX being administered pissing drugs..where thats all they do for a few hours to dehydrate them...so they can be thrashed in hard work ...for the MONEY...and.... ...TO HELL WITH THEIR WELFARE Edited June 29, 2021 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 46 minutes ago, Thomass said: After Neasham admitted trainers ROUTINELY give NSAIDS after Tuesady fast work you said You'd rather a horse after fastwork who was feeling discomfort to not be treated with an off the shelf anti-inflammatory? 47 minutes ago, Thomass said: Which reinforces the point that I've made about the elite Trainers being proactive in the administration of medication as preventative measures. You haven't reinforced any points. There are many many legal therapeutics both chemical and non-chemical that have a preventative action. It is in the interests of equine health and welfare to use them. Yet you are happy to bang blindfolds on horses who are scared to actually race. 50 minutes ago, Thomass said: The other point I made about Vets being contracted to governing bodies such as HK is the fact ZAAKI's Vet OVERPROSCRIBED this Drug returning a positive pre race Youd NEVER get a contracted Vet doing that Witness Oughahan's recent positive here...again an out of touch Vet So because a Vet has a contract they are not going to make any mistakes? As it is the industry isn't rife with "mistakes". No matter how much you state it you can't change the facts. But could the Industry and the Feds along with the Chief Vet Grierson do more to list recommended therapeutic medications, their dosage and withholding time - hell yes. Also they could do more about defining thresholds for therapeutic medications rather than having what can only be describe is a cop out lazy zero threshold policy. Even if you had what you want contracted Vets dispensing ALL medications these actions would have to be taken. Otherwise what recommendations does the contracted Vet work with? Of course in an industry with declining real returns to stakeholders you want to add considerable extra cost for no benefit. 57 minutes ago, Thomass said: Youve admitted you love drugs, whips and ANYTHING that forces a Thoroughbred to go as fast as possible under as much pressure as possible... I've admitted no such thing. I find it incongruous that drugs we humans happily pop down our throats every morning on a regular basis are deemed to be illegal in a racehorse e.g. proton inhibitors like Losec, Omeprazole etc which treat stomach ulcers in horses. Or preventative measures like Lasix to limit the inevitable EIPH. You are a hypocrite when you actively promote the blind folding of horses (blinkers) to make them GO FAST! Hell you even call them GO FAST's! 1 hour ago, Thomass said: ...and you see nothing wrong with the likes of WINX being administered pissing drugs..where thats all they do for a few hours to dehydrate them...so they can be thrashed in hard work That's an extreme exaggeration. Yes Lasix used in high doses is a diuretic but the level is much less likely when the drug is used as a preventative measure. What would you rather see? A horse drown in its own blood which you could have prevented or a horse urinating a bit more and having to drink a bit more? Do you really believe Winx was "thrashed in hard work"? That just indicates you ignorance of Equine health and welfare. Do you really think that if she had been "thrashed" constantly in hard work that she would have won as many races or raced at the very top of the elite level for so many seasons? As I've said before YOU don't actually care about horse welfare or racing. You constantly want to bring it down albeit from a position of being ill informed and ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: ...for the MONEY...and.... ...TO HELL WITH THEIR WELFARE Hypocrite. You promote blind folding scared horses so you can WIN on the PUNT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: You'd rather a horse after fastwork who was feeling discomfort to not be treated with an off the shelf anti-inflammatory? How do you know they're feeling "discomfort"? If they're lame...they should be RESTED..not loaded up with drugs! You haven't reinforced any points. There are many many legal therapeutics both chemical and non-chemical that have a preventative action. It is in the interests of equine health and welfare to use them. Yet you are happy to bang blindfolds on horses who are scared to actually race. You want Thoroughbreds on a continual drug regime...most enlightened Industry heavyweights like Santa Anita's Barb Stronach want change and horses rested when showing pain and stress So because a Vet has a contract they are not going to make any mistakes? As it is the industry isn't rife with "mistakes". No matter how much you state it you can't change the facts. Obviously a contracted Vet won't be ignoring recommended dose rates as Neashams Vet did But could the Industry and the Feds along with the Chief Vet Grierson do more to list recommended therapeutic medications, their dosage and withholding time - hell yes. Also they could do more about defining thresholds for therapeutic medications rather than having what can only be describe is a cop out lazy zero threshold policy. Even if you had what you want contracted Vets dispensing ALL medications these actions would have to be taken. Otherwise what recommendations does the contracted Vet work with? Write them! Of course in an industry with declining real returns to stakeholders you want to add considerable extra cost for no benefit. SFA! I've admitted no such thing. I find it incongruous that drugs we humans happily pop down our throats every morning on a regular basis are deemed to be illegal in a racehorse e.g. proton inhibitors like Losec, Omeprazole etc which treat stomach ulcers in horses. Or preventative measures like Lasix to limit the inevitable EIPH. Race horses ARE NOT on continual ulcer treatment...HK DONT use LASIX...EVER...if they can do it we can do it...and if Germany can REFUSE to admit high end Bleeders to the Stud Book...everyone can You are a hypocrite when you actively promote the blind folding of horses (blinkers) to make them GO FAST! Hell you even call them GO FAST's! Utter nonsense comparing Blinkers to drugs! Whipping makes them go much faster..under PAIN and STRESS....a key cause of EIPH That's an extreme exaggeration. Yes Lasix used in high doses is a diuretic but the level is much less likely when the drug is used as a preventative measure. What would you rather see? A horse drown in its own blood which you could have prevented or a horse urinating a bit more and having to drink a bit more? See HK! Do you really believe Winx was "thrashed in hard work"? That just indicates you ignorance of Equine health and welfare. Do you really think that if she had been "thrashed" constantly in hard work that she would have won as many races or raced at the very top of the elite level for so many seasons? LASIX allows Thoroughbreds to be worked far harder which heightens the chance of pain and stress...no wonder trainers "routinely administer NSAID's after fast work" As I've said before YOU don't actually care about horse welfare or racing. You constantly want to bring it down albeit from a position of being ill informed and ignorant. Au contrare....Its YOU who wants continual drug use along with no holds Barred whipping...both enabling even more stress and pain... ...and you won't acknowledge the 'Social License' the Racing Industry operates under because you know the public would be horrified at stars like WINX being given drugs to dehydrate them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 9 minutes ago, Thomass said: How do you know they're feeling "discomfort"? If they're lame...they should be RESTED..not loaded up with drugs! Once again you use an emotive subjective statement to support your assertion. What constitutes "loaded up with drugs"? Does the administration of a topical anti-inflammatory cream to a joint that has heat in it constitute "loading up with drug"? You honestly have no idea about training a racehorse. 11 minutes ago, Thomass said: You want Thoroughbreds on a continual drug regime...most enlightened Industry heavyweights like Santa Anita's Barb Stronach want change and horses rested when showing pain and stress I've never ever said that in any post. 11 minutes ago, Thomass said: Obviously a contracted Vet won't be ignoring recommended dose rates as Neashams Vet did Doesn't prevent mistakes from happening just because someone has a contract! You keep ignoring one of the key points that I make and that is where are the extensive guidelines on therapeutic treatments per ailment and practical thresholds above zero? 14 minutes ago, Thomass said: Write them! That would be as pointless as getting you to write them although in my case I don't profess to be the expert like you do. The responsibility is that of the Chief Vet. What does he do? Other than pitch up at JCA hearings sounding equivocal. 15 minutes ago, Thomass said: Race horses ARE NOT on continual ulcer treatment Perhaps they should be as it is a chronic problem for horses in training because of high energy feeds. If it is alright for you to take proton inhibitors and half an hour before you porridge in the morning why not for a horse? 17 minutes ago, Thomass said: Au contrare....Its YOU who wants continual drug use along with no holds Barred whipping...both enabling even more stress and pain... Again fake news as I've never said either of those things. 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...and you won't acknowledge the 'Social License' the Racing Industry operates under because you know the public would be horrified at stars like WINX being given drugs to dehydrate them No I don't put your concept of 'Social License' before the health and welfare of the elite equine athlete. You do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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