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Bit Of A Yarn

Tiered prizemoney structure?


curious

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Can someone help me understand this aspect of the Messara recommendations? I can not see from the report how this will lead to increasing revenue? It seems to me more part of the problem than part of any useful solution and I can't see anything in the report that would persuade me otherwise. That's all assuming that the $110m for stakes actually materialises from the proposed strategies.

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We don't run sufficient races to delineate the level of horse. So all that will happen is what happens now. Horses will run where they need to run and there will be no difference between any of the 'tiers'. And as it is, we already run too many races. Messara can't be this stupid given what has been claimed about him. Someone must have led him down the garden path and he got hoodwinked by the smell of the roses.

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20 minutes ago, mardigras said:

We don't run sufficient races to delineate the level of horse. So all that will happen is what happens now. Horses will run where they need to run and there will be no difference between any of the 'tiers'. And as it is, we already run too many races. Messara can't be this stupid given what has been claimed about him. Someone must have led him down the garden path and he got hoodwinked by the smell of the roses.

Yes but tiered racing is a significant factor in Thomas's betting strategies.  Saturday racing is so superior to midweek racing.  NOT!

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2 hours ago, curious said:

Can someone help me understand this aspect of the Messara recommendations? I can not see from the report how this will lead to increasing revenue? It seems to me more part of the problem than part of any useful solution and I can't see anything in the report that would persuade me otherwise. That's all assuming that the $110m for stakes actually materialises from the proposed strategies.

Here is the actual wording in the report

I think he is just stating, as you have, that when the money is available through strategies stated in the report, that the matrix of money will total enough across the racing calendar to effectively double stakemoney on offer

 

"We have worked closely with NZTR on this and we propose that the following Prizemoney Matrix should apply in New Zealand as and when at least $110 million of prizemoney can realistically be funded, which should be the situation if the other recommendations in this report are adopted.

....... the proposed Prizemoney Matrix would result in an approximate doubling of New Zealand prizemoney overall, and a doubling of the returns to owners, which is absolutely required for the reasons outlined elsewhere in this Review."

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but tiered racing is a significant factor in Thomas's betting strategies.  Saturday racing is so superior to midweek racing.  NOT!

Chief, luckily we're trying to have a serious discussion and we don't need to bring irrelevancies into it :) 

Edited by mardigras
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24 minutes ago, hesi said:

Here is the actual wording in the report

I think he is just stating, as you have, that when the money is available through strategies stated in the report, that the matrix of money will total enough across the racing calendar to effectively double stakemoney on offer

 

"We have worked closely with NZTR on this and we propose that the following Prizemoney Matrix should apply in New Zealand as and when at least $110 million of prizemoney can realistically be funded, which should be the situation if the other recommendations in this report are adopted.

....... the proposed Prizemoney Matrix would result in an approximate doubling of New Zealand prizemoney overall, and a doubling of the returns to owners, which is absolutely required for the reasons outlined elsewhere in this Review."

 

 

I get that but why have the tiers when the same horses will be going round in each tier as now? How can that possibly improve the product or revenue. Makes no sense to me and the report gives no explanation that I can see.

It's another tired old idea that already hasn't worked. Sounds like another big breeder initiative to me, not anything that will help racing.

Edited by curious
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9 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Chief, luckily we're trying to have a serious discussion and we don't need to bring irrelevancies into it :) 

My apologies Mardigras.  Yes this is a serious subject.  A tiered structure is lunacy.  The even crazier aspect of this is that we have been "trialing" such a concept for years now and there is ample evidence to show it is a failure.  However I suspect it gives management another tool to further screw over those clubs/tracks it wants seen gone!

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2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

My apologies Mardigras.  Yes this is a serious subject.  A tiered structure is lunacy.  The even crazier aspect of this is that we have been "trialing" such a concept for years now and there is ample evidence to show it is a failure.  However I suspect it gives management another tool to further screw over those clubs/tracks it wants seen gone!

I don't see how any of this can work. I think there's a fair chance that those clubs will simply walk away with their assets, so they won't have those and they'll be trying to run the same number of racedays on the remaining 28 tracks using a failed tiered stakes structure which will be even less sustainable than it is now.

I dealt with John a bit in the late 80s and had a lot of respect for him and some degree of hope about this review but the more I consider it, he seems to have developed a level of perspicacity similar to Winnie's.

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7 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes but tiered racing is a significant factor in Thomas's betting strategies.  Saturday racing is so superior to midweek racing.  NOT!

Of course Premier Saturday racing is superior to mid weak...

Do you live under a rock??

Invariably neddys run faster, harder and are battle hardened when the money's up

...and in bigger fields... where anything that can go wrong...often does...and more often...

wake up

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2 hours ago, curious said:

Really? Wanna put up some evidence?

He doesn't use facts. For this year (excluding 3 weeks in late May/June when I was overseas), Saturday races with a stake of $30k+ averaged 10.17 starters. The rest of the races averaged 10.52. 

'...and in bigger fields... where anything that can go wrong...often does...and more often...' Yeah right.

Everything he does is based on what he perceives as being expected. But he can't back it up - he doesn't understand or use times. he generalises everything, but he can't even get the generalisations right.

And evidently he can't count either.

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18 hours ago, Thomass said:

Of course Premier Saturday racing is superior to mid weak...

I think it really depends on your punting style, approach!

Back in a day when punting was my job, then 50% of my betting would have been done in g1 races, mainly large place bets.  

I chose that approach as I thought those races had the most exposed form and you could attempt to apply some sort of logic via the lead in races.

I should perhaps declare that I would be on course perhaps for a 100 meetings a season and car pooled with some  successful jockeys! A couple who were very conservative in sharing info, but when they did it could prove very helpful, that info could actually be about a horse with 'form' but not up to the class of the race in was in! Being able to confidently negate a publicly perceived strong chance can be very helpful I have found! 

Quite a revers now a days  to my betting style! now it's more of a serious hobby.  

Nowadays there is a real randomness to my betting, it is now based  90% on how my eye sees the horse! At a guess? 50% of my bets would be in lower class races at small meetings!  I don't attempt to 'work out form' at all. Perhaps 50% of the bets would be on horse having their fresh up run!  

I would perhaps have 1 bet for every 50 races watched! 

When it comes to field size numbers I would much rather bet in small fields! 

Having been won over to that old saying of "Small fish are sweet"

Reflecting on the ongoing discussion about 'betting approaches' on this site (and the old Racechat rip) it does at time become a tad 'old school yard name calling' and at times rather Groundhog Day!  sigh...

My take is that wagering/betting is vey much a heterogenous domain - a whole lot of punters competing against each other- and hence "Each to their own!!!".

I presume it would it be true to say that perhaps 90%= of all punters show a loss??

Edited by Justamugpunter
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I agree that each to their own is a fair comment. 

However, if someone comes in here claiming their methods are the keys to success, then they should be prepared for the backlash if they are simply flawed.

If they don't try to continually spruik these methods, there would be no need to rebuke them. They should just keep 'each to their own'  methods to themselves.

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Coming from somebody who admits they have no f in idea about punting in NZ...

You can't distinguish between a mid weak maiden win and an HQ black type performer...

Because you're a flawed statsman who believes a 6L 'every chance' is the same as 'unlucky az'..

At least Magoo was funny az...

...you're just boring with the perspicacity of a lensless drone

 

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Your 'ignorami' Rap sheet's as long as a Chumps...

..and your as slow az a sloth...and they've got pretty long arms too...

But what shows you up most is your denial that each progressive Class of race signifies an increase in time made good...

HK gives you the Stats...but you can't be bothered 

next

 

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2 minutes ago, Thomass said:

But what shows you up most is your denial that each progressive Class of race signifies an increase in time made good..

I've never denied such a thing. It IS a generalisation. I don't care about generalisations since you can't apply those to an individual horse.

Back to the topic, how is tiered racing going to change anything positively for the industry? It won't help of course, but I expect to hear back from you on some other topic of which you know equally little about anyway.

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