jeff gural(meadowlands) on cheats

[the galah]

Now this man is someone who clearly knows what he is talking about.

Much maligned for banning a few trainers not that many years ago,but in those cases it turned out he already had access to the evidence that those he was labelling cheats,were just that.

Well hes doing it again,based on all the evidence gathered by authoritites in that recent huge drug cheating scandel in the USA.Turns out he helped fund the investigation to the tune of $2.5 million of their own money.

So this is part of what he said when banning another 33 trainers,who he has evidence of having used the likes of EPO.Many had been setting their horses for upcoming racing at the meadowlands.He expects to ban more as the authorities release exactly who else was buying the performance enhancers for use on their harness racehorses.

"The whole thing is terrible. They lucked out that i kept the meadowlands open,but their luck ran out because I am honest.

ITS SAD BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHEAT. THEY FELT THEY HAD TO FEED THEIR FAMALIES AND THEY COULDN'T WIN A RACE UNLESS THEY DID.

Whats sad is Howard Taylor.Hes an owner,not a trainer.He had to be giving EPO to his trainers to use and  NOT A SINGLE TRAINER PICKED UP THE PHONE AND SAID I HAVE AN OWNWER WHO WANTS ME TO USE EPO ON HIS HORSES.HE HAS 150 HORSES AND LOTS OF TRAINERS.

YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT AT LEAST ONE TRAINER WOULD HAVE PICKED UP THE PHONE AND TOLD US WHAT WAS GOING ON...".But they didn't.

Jeff Gural is not stupid. People in australasia aren't stupid either. They know this type of thing happens even here.Obviously not on the same scale,but it happens and authorities need to focus on it.

Edited November 4, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

I think jeff gural hit the nail on the head with something he said about trainers and owners. ..

"Honest trainers have got to Feed their famalies". They must be given a fair chance to do so. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

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Edited November 4, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

. People in australasia aren't stupid either. They know this type of thing happens even here.

Where's the evidence?

[the galah]

25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Where's the evidence?

If you've got a spare 2.5 million i think i could mount an investigation which could gather enough evidence to get authorities to take some action.Thats what those connected with the meadowlands spent.

Lets put that to one side.

The question i have is,does hrnz or our RIB have plans to contact US authorities?

If they are really interested in tracking down cheats over here, you would think they would want to know what products the new zealander was purchasing. The one who's name they published as being on the list of clients of the corrupt vet.

Surely we don't want owners in nz buying performance enhancers overseas,or knowingly using trainers in the USA who use them.If he was going to do that,its reasonable to ask what would have stopped him from bringing them here after his many visits to the USA.

I have always thought it was easy enough to put 2 and 2 together and get 4 ,when gural chose to have the nz name published,instead of having it blanked out like he did some. My guess would be it was because of the personal attacks the nz person made against him.. 

Then once they got what products he was paying for,they could either exonerate him, or if not,they could undertake a proper investigation and see where all that leads.

Of course i think that would be the last thing HRNZ would want to do for obvious reasons.They wouldn't want to turn that rock over would they.

Edited November 5, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

If you've got a spare 2.5 million i think i could mount an investigation which could gather enough evidence to get authorities to take some action.Thats what those connected with the meadowlands spent.

Lets put that to one side

No let's  not "put that to one side".

NZ spent 7 times that amount of money on INCA and found SFA.

There is no evidence of extensive PED use in NZ.  

You conveniently overlook the fact that only about six on the list returned positives.  The others allegedly were sold and it is presumed they used the mislabelled drugs but no evidence from testing confirmed their use.  Now you may argue those drugs aren't testable when in fact they are.

Just like @Archie Butterfly aka Peter Profit you are casting aspersions on unamed license holders in NZ and OZ without any evidence.  It is destructive and harmful.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Surely we don't want owners in nz buying performance enhancers overseas,or knowingly using trainers in the USA who use them.If he was going to do that,its reasonable to ask what would have stopped him from bringing them here after his many visits to the USA.

There are all sorts of barriers to overcome to get the alleged drugs into NZ let alone use then without being detected.

The details of what they were and who was on the list have been publicly available for quite sometime.   Yet nothing has been found in NZ.

According to @Archie Butterfly they're sprinkling the stuff on their breakfast cereal out at Woodend Beach.  Yet nothing absolutely nothing has been found.

Accept it's because there isn't anything to find.

[the galah]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just like @Archie Butterfly aka Peter Profit you are casting aspersions on unamed license holders in NZ and OZ without any evidence.  It is destructive and harmful.

What is destructive and harmful is people who would rather bury there head in the sand.

I'm just stating a fact.

Just look up the list of clients that the corrupt vet that they ordered to forfeit 3 million,fined $250,000 and jailed for 11 years for supplying so many trainers with performance enhancers.His business turned over a million a year.

Just scroll down to where it has NZ beside his name. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, the galah said:

What is destructive and harmful is people who would rather bury there head in the sand.

Bury their head in the sand about what?  Some theory that there is widespread drug cheating?  WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!!!

10 hours ago, the galah said:

I'm just stating a fact.

What FACT?

10 hours ago, the galah said:

Just look up the list of clients that the corrupt vet that they ordered to forfeit 3 million,fined $250,000 and jailed for 11 years for supplying so many trainers with performance enhancers.His business turned over a million a year.

IN THE USA.  Where is the NZ evidence?

The vet went to jail because of label fraud.  Arguably most of the people that bought the snake oil thought it was something else.

Where are the positives in the USA for the use of the mislabelled products?

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Bury their head in the sand about what?  Some theory that there is widespread drug cheating?  WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!!!

What FACT?

IN THE USA.  Where is the NZ evidence?

The vet went to jail because of label fraud.  Arguably most of the people that bought the snake oil thought it was something else.

Where are the positives in the USA for the use of the mislabelled products?

Whenever we discuss this we both end up saying the same things.

You say i said "some theory about widespread drug cheating" to which i say i never said it was widespread. 

What fact you ask. The thing i said was a fact.  i.e. That a nz person was a client of the vet who got 11 years for peddling performance enhancers. I don't know exactly what he was buying,but suggested nz authorities should find out ,because it was well known amongst yonkers trainers what that vet sold.

You say the 30 people or so,who nearly all went to jail and had to forfeit most of their assets,plead guilty to mostly 1 charge of label fraud. I say if you bothered to read the evidence and the coverage it always referred to racehorse doping, performance enhancers and animal abuse and fraud.

i have said that everytime someone like gural says that perfomance enhancers are being used,you get this avalanche of people saying no they aren't. Then it all ends up down the track that gural was right and often the people who criticse gural the most have been those associated with those accused.

I saythat type of scenario plays out around the world. The only difference being at the meadowlands they actually want to catch the cheats because they know how harmful it is to the industry.

You say,no positives i a sign that no one is using performance enhancers,i say well just look at the usa and you will see thats not true because the majority who admitted to using peformance enhancers returned no positives and all many boosted that they were using stuff that wouldn't be picked up in testing and that the corrupt vet made sure of that.

Then you and i sort of come to the end of our concersation,you thinking well i have to put it out there that i don't agree with the galh and me thinking,if nz authorities really are interested in catching drug cheats,wouldn't you think they would at least make enquiries with USA authoriities about what and why the high profile nz person was dealing with someone that was widely known to peddle performance enhancers.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

That a nz person was a client of the vet who got 11 years for peddling performance enhancers.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE STATE THE FACT THAT HE WASN'T JAILED FOR PEDDLING PEDS BUT FOR MISLABELLING E.G. FRAUD!!!!!!

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

You say the 30 people or so,who nearly all went to jail and had to forfeit most of their assets,plead guilty to mostly 1 charge of label fraud.

YES.  YES. YES.

I have read most of what had been reported even the detailed court documents.

There were over 2,000 people on the dodgy Vet's customer list.  How many of them are in jail for USING these so called PEDS?  How many positives were recorded?  6 for none of the drugs that they were supposedly receiving.

If anything the 2,000 on the list are victims as they were defrauded and given something that wasn't true to label.  Assuming of course that there was actually anything in the stuff.

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

all many boosted that they were using stuff that wouldn't be picked up in testing and that the corrupt vet made sure of that.

BECAUSE THE VET WAS SUCH A FRAUD THAT THEY WEREN'T EVEN GETTING WHAT THEY WERE ALLEGED TO BE GETTING!  It's the oldest scam in the book!

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

if nz authorities really are interested in catching drug cheats,wouldn't you think they would at least make enquiries with USA authoriities about what and why the high profile nz person was dealing with someone that was widely known to peddle performance enhancers.

Why do they need to make enquiries?  Everything is published and the alleged drugs in question are specifically tested for.  

The bigger question you should ask is what are the connections to the privately owned but industry funded NZ testing Lab.  Is that Lab up to date with testing technology?  Should NZ outsource more to other international standard Labs and overseas?

Is the RIB wasting too much money on pointless investigations like INCA?

Why don't they release the full details of the test results for positives particularly in environmental contamination cases?  My opinion on why they don't is that anyone with an ounce of knowledge on the subject would know that the levels detected cannot but performance enhancing.

[Chief Stipe]

17 hours ago, the galah said:

You say i said "some theory about widespread drug cheating" to which i say i never said it was widespread. 

By the fact that you DON'T name names but by inference bring the whole industry into disrepute. 

The irony is if you aren't using the medications that are available today on your horse then your horse's health is suffering.

 

[the galah]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE STATE THE FACT THAT HE WASN'T JAILED FOR PEDDLING PEDS BUT FOR MISLABELLING E.G. FRAUD!!!!!!

For petes sake. Here is the United States attorneys office statement after his sentencing.

"seth Fishman received a 11 year jail sentence today for his role at the helm of an approxiamtely 20 year scheme to mayfacture,market and sell to racehorse trainers and others in the racing industry untestable performance drugs for use in professional racing.Gishman was one of over 30 defendants charged...each arising from this offices multi year investigation of the abuse of racehorses through the use of performancing enhancing drugs.....

Fishman created and marketed these drugs as untestable under typical anti doping screens and extolled the virtues of these illegal drugs by describing his method of creating customised products.

Fishman incorporated a sham  business operation designed to appear that it was outside US juridiction and pressured employees into signing non disclosure agreements.... he designed labels so as to give no hint of the provenance of the unsage drugs he was shipping across the country.

He vragged how he had used political favors to quash a 2011 incestuigation.Drugs seized included blood building drugs(for example bb3 and other epogen mimetic substances),vasodialators and bags of bleeder drugs each designed to increase performance."

Of course if you had followed the cases chief,you would realise that for example at the yonkers track,the leading trainers were his clients and there was a direct link in how they had gone to the top of the trainers table and when they became his clients.

[the galah]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

By the fact that you DON'T name names but by inference bring the whole industry into disrepute. 

The irony is if you aren't using the medications that are available today on your horse then your horse's health is suffering.

 

Look,you know i named the person as john curtin,owner of auckland reactor. The man who made regular trips to new york The first nz person to get covid. The person who used harnesslink to attavk gural for banning certain trainers.

The one who used his website to criticise anyone who said the all stars were on anything.

Remember blue magic and how that came to be in use. 

I named him because harnesslink actually published the list on their website....

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

Look,you know i named the person as john curtin,owner of auckland reactor. The man who made regular trips to new york The first nz person to get covid. The person who used harnesslink to attavk gural for banning certain trainers.

The one who used his website to criticise anyone who said the all stars were on anything.

Remember blue magic and how that came to be in use. 

I named him because harnesslink actually published the list on their website....

 

That explains your All Star aspersions and focus.

So how does/did Curtain get the stuff into New Zealand?  How did it not show up in testing?

There were 2,000 people on the list.  Doesn't prove anything.  You'd be surprised what mailing lists you'd be on!!!!

You are looking for something that isn't there.  I know the RIB aren't the perfect organisation but given the size of the industry in NZ do you really think they couldn't find something if it was there?

However it does give fodder to the likes of @Archie Butterfly to peddle to make money meanwhile discrediting the industry that feeds him.

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

For petes sake. Here is the United States attorneys office statement after his sentencing.

"seth Fishman received a 11 year jail sentence today for his role at the helm of an approxiamtely 20 year scheme to mayfacture,market and sell to racehorse trainers and others in the racing industry untestable performance drugs for use in professional racing.Gishman was one of over 30 defendants charged...each arising from this offices multi year investigation of the abuse of racehorses through the use of performancing enhancing drugs.....

Fishman created and marketed these drugs as untestable under typical anti doping screens and extolled the virtues of these illegal drugs by describing his method of creating customised products.

Fishman incorporated a sham  business operation designed to appear that it was outside US juridiction and pressured employees into signing non disclosure agreements.... he designed labels so as to give no hint of the provenance of the unsage drugs he was shipping across the country.

He vragged how he had used political favors to quash a 2011 incestuigation.Drugs seized included blood building drugs(for example bb3 and other epogen mimetic substances),vasodialators and bags of bleeder drugs each designed to increase performance."

Of course if you had followed the cases chief,you would realise that for example at the yonkers track,the leading trainers were his clients and there was a direct link in how they had gone to the top of the trainers table and when they became his clients.

BUT WHERE ARE THE POSITIVES!!!!!!!!!  The drugs identified in the multi-million dollar investigation are easily detectable!!!  How many of the 2,000 on the client list were caught using the drugs in races?

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You are looking for something that isn't there. 

But his name is on that list.So it is there. 

the list was  taken in 2020. It did not say whether the clients named were current or historical and whether the purchases being made were for anything illegal or not.

Gural has subsequently recently obtained information about which current trainers/owners participating at the meadowlands purchased epogen and thymosyn.

Thats why hes just banned another 33.

What i'm saying is,if he can obtain what the clients were purchasing then nz authorities should make similar enquires. Then if its all fine and above board,then good,but if not they should take similar action here.

You have to ask yourself though,given the evidence that such large numbers knew about Mr Fishman,wouldn't you be wanting to avoid making purchases off him if you were honest.

The list also has people like peter tritton,father of shane tritton who was at the forefront of discussions around the use of performance enhancers when he was in australisa.Now you can guarantee tritton would have known about the vets reputation,but that is not evidence of what he was buying from him.

But as you say its all supposition with no exact proof. But gural at least had the will to take steps to obtain the truth and punish the dishonest.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

But his name is on that list.So it is there.

Along with 1,999 others!!!   FFS!

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

the list was  taken in 2020. It did not say whether the clients named were current or historical and whether the purchases being made were for anything illegal or not.

Exactly!!!  So why caste aspersions on Curtain?

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

Gural has subsequently recently obtained information about which current trainers/owners participating at the meadowlands purchased epogen and thymosyn.

They didn't know that that was what they were purchasing nor for that matter what was actually in the bottles as they were MISLABELLED!!!!

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

Thats why hes just banned another 33.

On the basis of what?  He has opened himself up to litigation.

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

You have to ask yourself though,given the evidence that such large numbers knew about Mr Fishman,wouldn't you be wanting to avoid making purchases off him if you were honest.

Aren't you retrospectively applying knowledge that was obtained under investigation?  They may have known Fishman but did any of them know what they were purchasing?  If they did know then they could have purchased it cheaper somewhere else!

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

The list also has people like peter tritton,father of shane tritton who was at the forefront of discussions around the use of performance enhancers when he was in australisa.Now you can guarantee tritton would have known about the vets reputation,but that is not evidence of what he was buying from him.

So where is the evidence?

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

But as you say its all supposition with no exact proof. But gural at least had the will to take steps to obtain the truth and punish the dishonest.

Who is being dishonest?  They may have administered something that was no better than lolly water!  Gural is punishing people on the basis that they bought something that wasn't what it was said to be.  There is no evidence that they used it or gained an advantage nor that what was contained in each of their bottles was EPO or thymosin.  Hence NO AUTHORITIES have charged them and NO POSITIVES were returned.  All those charges and convicted were convicted on the basis of committing fraud.  Who knows Curtain may have even been duped.  There are so many similarities with the Police involvement in INCA.  

[the galah]

Got it.

you say over a 20 year period,worldwide,people bought stuff from fishman that he said were performance enhancers that could beat the testing regime,and none of them cottoned on to it being "snake oil" as you put it.

You say it was coincidental that the trainers jumped to the top of the premiership tables at the likes of yonkers at the same time they started getting fishmans stuff.

You say the 7 vets who onsold his products were duped.

Everyone of his clients was a mug.

You think testing picks up all perfromance enhancers.

By the way,Gural was sued and they chucked the cases out of court. His comments after were to the effect,bring it on again if you dare and it makes him want to  go harder after the cheats and that he had the money to deal with any such stupid lawsuits. 

Nothing of what you argue makes any sense to me. So we will have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 7, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

you say over a 20 year period,worldwide,people bought stuff from fishman that he said were performance enhancers that could beat the testing regime,and none of them cottoned on to it being "snake oil" as you put it.

YEP.  Especially in the last 10.

[Forbury]

Here's a next start winner if you can get on at the Meadowlands big m. https://youtu.be/JCkHiAYCySs?si=zv_BhNaBXfUK0Tfr

[Forbury]

I believe that this is what happened with Grimson he was approached by a scientist chemistry vet etc who has the real deal goods story over.