Cobalt + With A Rather Serious Consequence

[Yankiwi]

I guess Mr. Pringle didn't get the memo to keep a dead rabbit in his freezer, like happened in the O'Regan incident.

https://racingintegrityboard.org.nz/decisions/non-raceday-inquiry-written-decision-dated-17-july-2024-robert-pringle/

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

I guess Mr. Pringle didn't get the memo to keep a dead rabbit in his freezer, like happened in the O'Regan incident.

https://racingintegrityboard.org.nz/decisions/non-raceday-inquiry-written-decision-dated-17-july-2024-robert-pringle/

He should appeal that decision and I'm willing to help. 

[Chief Stipe]

@Yankiwi can you pass my email address on admin@bitofayarn.com.

Thanks.

Or do you want to help?

[Yankiwi]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

He should appeal that decision and I'm willing to help. 

Good on you Chief.

It's about time you stepped up.

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

Good on you Chief.

It's about time you stepped up.

It's about time you and @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers stood down.

When I first read the judgement I wondered how long it would take your trainspotting to find it.

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

I personally can’t wait to read all the additional reckons you’ll add to Mr Pringle’s vituperative nonsense in the appeal of a strict liability charge @Chief Stipe. I have my popcorn ready. 

Edited July 19 by Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

I personally can’t wait to read all the additional reckons you’ll add to Mr Pringle’s vituperative nonsense in the appeal of a strict liability charge @Chief Stipe. I have my popcorn ready. 

Why would you be bothered?  Explain to us all how it supports your agenda?

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why would you be bothered?  Explain to us all how it supports your agenda?

Mr Pringle’s actions speak to the character of those who participate in the industry, that’s why. He freely admitted to giving his greyhound a supplement for horses twice a day including race day, a known EPO, that is not licensed for use in dogs and at an uncontrolled dose which would be far higher than a dog should have been given if it was licensed for their use. He claims other trainers use this same horse supplement too. Then he concocted completely implausible scenarios to try and point the finger elsewhere for a strict liability offence that even the usually lenient adjunct committee disregarded. 
 

And you @Chief Stipe think he has grounds for an appeal - and I can’t wait to hear on what grounds - again speaks to the character of the few people in New Zealand who support this industry. 

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

He freely admitted to giving his greyhound a supplement for horses twice a day including race day, a known EPO,

It is a supplement with the following active ingredients:

Active Constituents:

Each 30 mL dose contains:

IRON 300 mg

COPPER 30 mg

COBALT 1.1 mg

FOLIC ACID 9 mg

It is NOT EPO!  So that's your first piece of alarmist misinformation.

 

29 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

that is not licensed for use in dogs and at an uncontrolled dose which would be far higher than a dog should have been given if it was licensed for their use.

Again factually incorrect.

Pringle was charged under the following rule (not because it wasn't licensed):

 

14. Under GRNZ Prohibited Substance Regulations for the Rules of Racing, substances capable at any time acting directly or indirectly on the blood system are Prohibited Substances. Cobalt is capable of acting upon the blood system and, under the Rules, when present in urine above 100 ng/mL, is a Prohibited Substance in accordance with the Rules.

Now this is where the rules have a few holes in them.  What does "substances capable at any time acting directly or indirectly on the blood system" actually mean?  It is a very broad catchall rule and could cover a myriad of substances.  For example Cobalt is a key component of the Vitamen B complexes - particularly B12.

35 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Then he concocted completely implausible scenarios to try and point the finger elsewhere for a strict liability offence that even the usually lenient adjunct committee disregarded. 

They were only implausible in your mind.  Where is the evidence for a "...usually lenient adjunct committee..."  that's just your opinion.  Please provide some facts.

The whole Cobalt issue in racing has caused many injustices.  I suggest you do some more research.

Where is the evidence that Cobalt at the levels found are performancing enhancing?

@Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers you are welcome to practice you anti-Greyhound Racing arguments on BOAY and you need more practice.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Is that the best you've got @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers ?  Suggest you get back to making banners.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

giving his greyhound a supplement for horses twice a day including race day, a known EPO

Some education for you EPO is short for erythropoietin.

Can you please cite the evidence showing that Ironvita is a known EPO?  

[BitofaLegend]

6 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Mr Pringle’s actions speak to the character of those who participate in the industry, that’s why. He freely admitted to giving his greyhound a supplement for horses twice a day including race day, a known EPO, that is not licensed for use in dogs and at an uncontrolled dose which would be far higher than a dog should have been given if it was licensed for their use. He claims other trainers use this same horse supplement too. Then he concocted completely implausible scenarios to try and point the finger elsewhere for a strict liability offence that even the usually lenient adjunct committee disregarded. 
 

And you @Chief Stipe think he has grounds for an appeal - and I can’t wait to hear on what grounds - again speaks to the character of the few people in New Zealand who support this industry. 

What a fucken moron jesus christ.

Vets give this product to dogs aswell. Its a common supplement.

This isnt a harmful drug at all.

Its commonly used to help with recovery. Thats it. The only issue here is too much cobalt can lead to a positive because it can be considered a performance enhancer which is why there are guidelines in place to not give products containing cobalt within 48hrs of a race

[Yankiwi]

11 hours ago, BitofaLegend said:

The only issue here is too much cobalt can lead to a positive because it can be considered a performance enhancer which is why there are guidelines in place to not give products containing cobalt within 48hrs of a race

 

This I believe is where the problem is and makes it very serious.

 

 

By giving a dog what is considered to be a performance enhancing substance 4 to 6 hours prior to the race points directly towards the trainer doing so to give his change an unfair advantage.

The exact reason why dogs are swabbed on a race day in the first place.

He wasn't hard done by.

He did it on purpose & he got caught.

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

 

By giving a dog what is considered to be a performance enhancing substance

Is it performance enhancing?  Can you please list the cites?  Or are you taking the @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers approach to presenting facts?  

[BitofaLegend]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Is it performance enhancing?  Can you please list the cites?  Or are you taking the @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers approach to presenting facts?  

In this case, i dont think it matters if it actually is or not because its banned regardless on raceday.

The only fault i could find is he gave it race day. If he did this 2 days earlier. It probably wouldnt have been an issue and a high reading wouldnt have been returned. 

I doubt he gave it to the dog for improved performance either. Probably gave it for recovery after the race.

[BitofaLegend]

3 minutes ago, BitofaLegend said:

In this case, i dont think it matters if it actually is or not because its banned regardless on raceday.

The only fault i could find is he gave it race day. If he did this 2 days earlier. It probably wouldnt have been an issue and a high reading wouldnt have been returned. 

I doubt he gave it to the dog for improved performance either. Probably gave it for recovery after the race.

Should reword that to say its a controlled substance on raceday because cobalt isnt banned, just a certain level of the product is.

And as Yankiwi has pointed out, they are more concerned about how it was given raceday then the fact it was given

 

Edited July 20 by BitofaLegend

[Yankiwi]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Is it performance enhancing?  Can you please list the cites?

 

My words were

5 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

considered to be a performance enhancing substance

 

https://greyhoundstar.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/WALLIS-INQUIRY.pdf

 

 

Here's the NZ rule~

 

Here's the test results~

 

He knowingly & intentionally gave his dog Cobalt on race day.

Instead of being critical about his actions, you're critical of my action, simply talking about it.

Says lot about you @Chief Stipe, doesn't it?

[Yankiwi]

Yet again, the big race was tarnished.

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

Yet again, the big race was tarnished.

But you're making sure the world knows.  Why?  

[Chief Stipe]

On 20/07/2024 at 3:42 PM, Yankiwi said:

He knowingly & intentionally gave his dog Cobalt on race day.

Instead of being critical about his actions, you're critical of my action, simply talking about it.

Says lot about you @Chief Stipe, doesn't it?

Actually you are not "simply talking about it"!  You have an obsessive campaign to find ANYTHING to criticise GRNZ and its participants about.  That says a lot about you.

[Chief Stipe]

On 20/07/2024 at 3:42 PM, Yankiwi said:

 

https://greyhoundstar.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/WALLIS-INQUIRY.pdf

 

That's bollocks.  Cite some research that Cobalt has any effect on a Greyhound's performance.

It MAY stimulate natural EPO production but it ISN'T artificial EPO.

[Chief Stipe]

@Yankiwi and @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers

STATEMENT ON COBALT TESTING IN GREYHOUNDS:

Derek A Major BVSc MACVSc CMAVA

I have been in Equine Veterinary Practice since 1989. In January, 2014 I was granted an Animal Care and Ethics Permit to perform cobalt excretion studies in horses, and I have been performing various trials on the urine and blood levels of cobalt in horses following routine administration of common vitamins and minerals. I have been involved in providing advice and evidence to horse trainers charged with breaching current cobalt regulations in Thoroughbred and Harness Racing.

I have no interest, financial or otherwise, in the sport of Greyhound racing. I am however deeply disturbed that the industry has followed the lead from horse racing and imposed a urinary threshold on cobalt in dogs. I believe that the horse threshold was developed on inadequate and flawed science.

I am a strong champion of animal welfare, and I fully appreciate regularity authorities’ concern to protect the welfare of dogs and horses. I would condemn any attempt to wilfully dose any animal with large doses of cobalt, for perceived performance advantage.

Cobalt is an essential trace nutrient in mammals. Its sole role is as a structural component of the Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) molecule, which is essential to red blood cell function.

I have 3 areas of concern:

1. Urine is the wrong test medium

Cobalt is one of a group of elements classified as “heavy metals”. This group includes iron, copper, zinc, arsenic, selenium and lead, among others. Some of these are essential to life, in varying quantities – cobalt being one of them. Characteristic of heavy metals is the tendency to accumulate in a number of body tissues. High levels can lead to signs of toxicity. Cobalt intoxication has been reported in humans, and lead poisoning is recognised in many species.

When a horse or dog is exposed to a continued low level of cobalt levels in the blood plasma and red cells rises. Most of the cobalt in blood is bound to plasma protein, and ultimately is incorporated into the red blood cells, where it remains for the life of the cell – around 120 days. This may account for 90% of the cobalt in blood, and is NOT measured in urine tests.

Urine testing simply measures the free ionised cobalt “spilling over” into the urine. Urine testing measures what “was” in the animal” not what “is” in the animal.

Indeed, such simple factors as water intake and concentration of the urine can have a profound effect on urine cobalt levels. As a starting point it is essential to correct measured levels against urine creatinine or specific gravity.

The more appropriate test is that adopted.

2. Cobalt is not performance- enhancing

Interest in illicit cobalt use as a performance-enhancer in racing horses and dogs can be traced back to some speculative articles in the lay press from the sport of Cycling. It was proposed that cobalt in humans might stimulate erythropoietin (EPO), and lead to increased red cell production. This speculation comes from discussions in the scientific literature dating back to the 1940’s and even 1930’s, which referred to laboratory studies on rabbit and rat red blood cells.

Such studies as have been done in horses have failed to support this proposal, showing No increase in red cells and NO increase in haemopoietin, even after very large doses of cobalt.

Given the120 day life span of red blood cells any such effect would require dosing months before racing, and raceday urine testing would be irrelevant. Furthermore, given the massive reserves of red blood cells stored in the spleen it is highly questionable whether increasing the count would make the horse run faster or slower.

3. Uncontrolled Population Studies are Flawed

The horse urine level was set on the basis of statistical analysis of an uncontrolled population study. Without reliable knowledge of the total cobalt exposure of each individual in the study, the “normal” range cannot be defined. I understand a parallel approach has been adopted for Greyhound Racing. Total exposure includes “native” cobalt in the feed, water and environment, as well as legitimate vitamin and mineral supplements, in addition to any illicit administration.

4. Greyhound Racing does not need to invent a new “scandal”.

Having previously stated my disinterest I can only observe that Greyhound Racing in New South Wales is struggling to improve its reputation in the public eye. In my opinion Horse Racing has suffered a severe loss of reputation in recent years, and many trainers have been unfairly disadvantaged, on the basis of flawed and inadequate science. I would urge the Grey hound industry NOT to follow that path.

Association of Racing Commissioners

International. Cobalt in blood plasma is measured, and sanctions applied when the level exceeds 25ppm.

2. Cobalt is not performance- enhancing

Interest in illicit cobalt use as a performance-enhancer in racing horses and dogs can be traced back to some speculative articles in the lay press from the sport of Cycling. It was proposed that cobalt in humans might stimulate erythropoietin (EPO), and lead to increased red cell production. This speculation comes from discussions in the scientific literature dating back to the 1940’s and even 1930’s, which referred to laboratory studies on rabbit and rat red blood cells.

Such studies as have been done in horses have failed to support this proposal, showing No increase in red cells and NO increase in haemopoietin, even after very large doses of cobalt.

Given the120 day life span of red blood cells any such effect would require dosing months before racing, and raceday urine testing would be irrelevant. Furthermore, given the massive reserves of red blood cells stored in the spleen it is highly questionable whether increasing the count would make the horse run faster or slower.

3. Uncontrolled Population Studies are Flawed

The horse urine level was set on the basis of statistical analysis of an uncontrolled population study. Without reliable knowledge of the total cobalt exposure of each individual in the study, the “normal” range cannot be defined. I understand a parallel approach has been adopted for Greyhound Racing. Total exposure includes “native” cobalt in the feed, water and environment, as well as legitimate vitamin and mineral supplements, in addition to any illicit administration.

4. Greyhound Racing does not need to invent a new “scandal”.

Having previously stated my disinterest I can only observe that Greyhound Racing in New South Wales is struggling to improve its reputation in the public eye. In my opinion Horse Racing has suffered a severe loss of reputation in recent years, and many trainers have been unfairly disadvantaged, on the basis of flawed and inadequate science. I would urge the Greyhound industry NOT to follow that path.

[Chief Stipe]

This is an extract from a review (for @Yankiwi and @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers education endogenous means naturally produced within the body of the animal):

If cobalt could increase endogenous EPO production with achievable equine doses, then this would potentially confer a competitive advantage in equine sports. Typical equine doses of cobalt which might be clandestinely administered with the intent of performance enhancement cannot be accurately determined, since this information is not commonly made available. However, dose rates (based on interviews by author C.K. Fenger with trainers on the condition of anonymity) appear to range from occasional ‘low’ doses of 100 up to 400 mg cobalt chloride, typically diluted in 1000 ml of saline and administered by slow IV drip. According to regulators with the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission, ‘intelligence’ has revealed that repeated ‘high’ doses of as much as 4 mg/kg (1,800 mg total dose for a typical 450 kg horse) of cobalt chloride have been administered by rapid IV bolus (Waldridge, 2015). However, neither a single modest IV dose of 100 mg cobalt chloride (49 mg cobalt ion, Knych et al., 2015), nor a repeated high dose of 1.8 mg/kg cobalt chloride (810 mg cobalt ion for a typical 450 kg horse) every 4 days for 7 treatments (Waldridge, 2015) resulted in any haematologic effects in horses.

[Chief Stipe]

Yes Pringle was cheating to administer Ironvita within 48 hours of a race however if he believes that it made a difference then the science suggests he is wrong.

The Cobalt scandals have been the biggest beatups in racing in modern times.  About all the administration of Cobalt would possibly do is help reduce anaemia in racing animals under stress from high performance training and racing.

If ANYONE can cite a scientific research paper that shows the administration of Cobalt has increased the performace of a racehorse or greyhound I'd be interested to see it.

[Chief Stipe]

On 20/07/2024 at 3:42 PM, Yankiwi said:

Instead of being critical about his actions, you're critical of my action, simply talking about it.

Says lot about you @Chief Stipe, doesn't it?

I'm extremely critical of the meme's you produce.

As for Cobalt I wish someone would challenge the science on the issue when charged.  It has cost millions of dollars to participants and the industry in Thoroughbred Racing both here and particularly in OZ.  

What if the Racing Stipes came out and said the truth - "Hey guys Cobalt does nothing to increase performance unless your dog or horse is anaemic.  So you are wasting your time using it if you think you are getting an advantage.  Also too much may have the opposite effect."