Cobalt + With A Rather Serious Consequence

[Chief Stipe]

Another conclusion from some research done in 2020 on racehorses:

In the second component of the study, we investigated the effect of a Co dose sufficient to maintain plasma levels over 300 μg/l on performance and found no effect on indices of either aerobic or anaerobic performance.

[Yankiwi]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes Pringle was cheating to administer Ironvita within 48 hours of a race.

You said it Chief. Very good.

 

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But you're making sure the world knows.  Why? 

Transparency, or lack thereof. GRNZ is always claiming they have full transparency.

Those positive cobalt swabs were taken on 28 Jan & 15 Feb, or roughly 4 months prior to the Silver Collar taking place.

Why weren't the public/punters informed that Grande Vue Ace was currently under investigation for returning two positive swabs for Cobalt, with the swabs returning very high levels well in excess of the threshold?

 

 

16. GRANDE VUE ACE was post-race swabbed and on 2 March 2024, ELS issued an Analytical Report detailing the sample had screened with a Cobalt level of 189 µg/L.

189 / 3.44 = 55 times the median level of a greyhound.

 

5. GRAND VUE ACE was pre-race swabbed and on 13 February 2024, the Eurofins ELS Limited laboratory (ELS) issued an Analytical Report detailing the sample had screened with a Cobalt level of 290 micrograms per litre of urine (ug/L).

290 / 3.44 = 84 times the median level of a greyhound.

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

On 7/19/2024 at 4:18 PM, Chief Stipe said:

It is a supplement with the following active ingredients:

Active Constituents:

Each 30 mL dose contains:

IRON 300 mg

COPPER 30 mg

COBALT 1.1 mg

FOLIC ACID 9 mg

It is NOT EPO!  So that's your first piece of alarmist misinformation.

 

 

The Adjudicators certainly seem concerned about its potential to increase EPO - from the decision ID: RIB44381
 

7. The use of Cobalt as a potential performance-enhancing agent has been reported in human and equine athletes. It has been postulated that the enhanced erythropoiesis (production of red blood cells) and increased circulating erythropoietin concentrations following Cobalt administration, have the potential to improve athletic performance by raising the blood oxygen carrying capacity. Cobalt has been found to increase erythropoietin (EPO) concentrations in dogs.

^emphasis mine 

 

 

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

On 7/19/2024 at 4:18 PM, Chief Stipe said:

 

 

Again factually incorrect.

Pringle was charged under the following rule (not because it wasn't licensed):

 

14. Under GRNZ Prohibited Substance Regulations for the Rules of Racing, substances capable at any time acting directly or indirectly on the blood system are Prohibited Substances. Cobalt is capable of acting upon the blood system and, under the Rules, when present in urine above 100 ng/mL, is a Prohibited Substance in accordance with the Rules.

 

 

And my point (which clearly passed you right on by though you directly asked for it) was the behaviour of Mr Pringle speaks to his character. 

Who gives a dog they claim to love horse supplements that is not licensed for use in dogs and which he had received no veterinary advice to do so (or none that he tabled - I'd love to see it) and just because other trainers allegedly do (although clearly smarter at it).

And you agree that " Pringle was cheating to administer Ironvita within 48 hours" - by his own, freely given written submission he did this on race day in an uncontrolled squirt from a bottle - but you don't think the other claims he made about supposedly tampered chicken broth + and beaks and intestines + he must have still had supplement on his hands (hours later - does the man not ever wash his hands?) when he helped a steward open a sample are implausible? Heard of Occam's razor? I'm sure glad the adjudicators must have. 

So what, do tell us, are Mr Pringle's grounds for appeal here exactly? Just that you don't like this rule? I mean, some people don't like the speed limits on our roads but they are the law and if you are caught breaking them, there are consequences. 

Ah well, if GRNZ agree with you they can just change it, like they have done with other rule changes.

 

 

Edited July 22 by Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

7. The use of Cobalt as a potential performance-enhancing agent has been reported in human and equine athletes. It has been postulated that the enhanced erythropoiesis (production of red blood cells) and increased circulating erythropoietin concentrations following Cobalt administration, have the potential to improve athletic performance by raising the blood oxygen carrying capacity. Cobalt has been found to increase erythropoietin (EPO) concentrations in dogs.

^emphasis mine 

 

Where is the research?  CITE THE RESEARCH.  Emphasis mine.

I can post two research studies that clearly show Cobalt had no effect on equine performance.  I cannot find any research that supports that it does.

 

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Who gives a dog they claim to love horse supplements that is not licensed for use in dogs and which he had received no veterinary advice to do so (or none that he tabled - I'd love to see it) and just because other trainers allegedly do (although clearly smarter at it).

As was pointed out to you but which your selective bias chooses to ignore is that Ironvita can be used on dogs and is sometimes recommended to be used on dogs.  You could choose something more expensive that had the same contents but labeled to give to dogs such as

https://www.hvhoofandequinehealthcareproducts.com/product-page/virbac-ironcyclen

10 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

So what, do tell us, are Mr Pringle's grounds for appeal here exactly? Just that you don't like this rule? I mean, some people don't like the speed limits on our roads but they are the law and if you are caught breaking them, there are consequences.

The grounds for appeal would be that the rule is non-specific - it is a catchall that in many respects is detrimental to the health and welfare of dogs.  The second grounds would be that there is no evidence that Cobalt at the levels administered are performance enhancing.

Answer this question:

Why don't they test for Iron levels under the same catchall rule?  Afterall following your logic Iron is an erythropoiesis enhancing agent.  That's why many women take Iron supplements once a month.

BTW there is 300x the amount of Iron in Ironvita than there is Cobalt.

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Where is the research?  CITE THE RESEARCH.  Emphasis mine.

I can post two research studies that clearly show Cobalt had no effect on equine performance.  I cannot find any research that supports that it does.

 

Dunno if you know this but greyhounds aren’t horses. You don’t have any research on its effects in dogs so you can’t say it has no impact on them. 

Imagine if we allowed drugs tested on animals to be rolled out on humans without proper, robust research into their impacts, side effects and efficacy? I mean, we’re an animal too, what could be the harm? Only that 95% of new drugs that are shown to be safe and effective in animals fail in human trials. 

So pony up with research on dogs and colbalt or sit down eh?

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

As was pointed out to you but which your selective bias chooses to ignore is that Ironvita can be used on dogs and is sometimes recommended to be used on dogs.  You could choose something more expensive that had the same contents but labeled to give to dogs such as

https://www.hvhoofandequinehealthcareproducts.com/product-page/virbac-ironcyclen

The grounds for appeal would be that the rule is non-specific - it is a catchall that in many respects is detrimental to the health and welfare of dogs.  The second grounds would be that there is no evidence that Cobalt at the levels administered are performance enhancing.

Answer this question:

Why don't they test for Iron levels under the same catchall rule?  Afterall following your logic Iron is an erythropoiesis enhancing agent.  That's why many women take Iron supplements once a month.

BTW there is 300x the amount of Iron in Ironvita than there is Cobalt

Love your whataboutisms don’t you? Screeching ‘but look over here at this other thing I think is wrong!!!! Stamps foot’ isn’t a defenced to this or any other charge. 

Also you don't seem to know much about iron and human health - ‘many women take iron once a month’ (lololol cos we can’t use actual terms like menstruation?) will do nothing. Iron meds need to be taken for a sustained length of time to impact lowered iron levels, and iron infusions are usually at least one week apart. 

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Dunno if you know this but greyhounds aren’t horses. You don’t have any research on its effects in dogs so you can’t say it has no impact on them. 

Imagine if we allowed drugs tested on animals to be rolled out on humans without proper, robust research into their impacts, side effects and efficacy? I mean, we’re an animal too, what could be the harm? Only that 95% of new drugs that are shown to be safe and effective in animals fail in human trials. 

So pony up with research on dogs and colbalt or sit down eh?

Ironvita is NOT a drug.  It is a dietary supplement.  Legal at that.

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Love your whataboutisms don’t you? Screeching ‘but look over here at this other thing I think is wrong!!!! Stamps foot’ isn’t a defenced to this or any other charge. 

Also you don't seem to know much about iron and human health - ‘many women take iron once a month’ (lololol cos we can’t use actual terms like menstruation?) will do nothing. Iron meds need to be taken for a sustained length of time to impact lowered iron levels, and iron infusions are usually at least one week apart. 

In your obsession you miss the point. Iron (Fe) does the same thing as Cobalt.

Neither are a drug.  They are a basic element essential to the production of blood.  

Suggest you go do your homework.

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

In your obsession you miss the point. Iron (Fe) does the same thing as Cobalt.

Neither are a drug.  They are a basic element essential to the production of blood.  

Suggest you go do your homework.

In your wilful ignorance you miss the point that cobalt does not occur naturally in greyhounds at the level detected in Mr Pringle’s dog and it only got there because the adjudicators believe and as (again I repeat) he freely admitted in his written submission, as a result of giving his hound a supplement licensed for use in horses not dogs. 
 

Lord it gets boring having to repeat these basic facts adnauseam to you 

 

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

In your wilful ignorance you miss the point that cobalt does not occur naturally in greyhounds at the level detected in Mr Pringle’s dog

Neither would Iron.

You miss the point because the chemistry is beyond you.

32 minutes ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Lord it gets boring having to repeat these basic facts adnauseam to you 

Ditto responding to the ignorant.

What you are proving from your position of wanting to cancel Greyhound racing is that the Greyhound Administrators are shooting themselves in the paw.

The question is:

Is Cobalt at x level a PED?

Cite the science that says it is.  Not opinion or supposition - the research.

 

[Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Neither would Iron.

You miss the point because the chemistry is beyond you.

Ditto responding to the ignorant.

What you are proving from your position of wanting to cancel Greyhound racing is that the Greyhound Administrators are shooting themselves in the paw.

The question is:

Is Cobalt at x level a PED?

Cite the science that says it is.  Not opinion or supposition - the research.

 

Still banging on with your whataboutisms re iron, when the charge is for cobalt and which you can provide research for the effects of only in horses which are not, and have never been, greyhounds. Love your commitment to irrelevance! 

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Still banging on with your whataboutisms re iron, when the charge is for cobalt and which you can provide research for the effects of only in horses which are not, and have never been, greyhounds. Love your commitment to irrelevance! 

Are you intellectually challenged?  

Where is the research that Cobalt is performance enhancing for racing horses or dogs?

Using your own logic Fe has a similar effect as Co on erythropoiesis.

Let's face it your logic and anti-greyhound stance is based on little of substance. 

[Yankiwi]

15 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

In your obsession you miss the point. Iron (Fe) does the same thing as Cobalt.

Chief makes a very good point here.

If Iron can increase blood's ability to carry Oxygen in a similar way to which Cobalt does, GRNZ needs to set a threshold for the Iron level in urine into the rule book & the RIB's lab needs to start testing for it.

Now that Cobalt has been proven to have been used within the code in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, it's time they start digging much deeper when future positive Arsenic swabs occur. They've been very dismissive in all the previous instances.

Since the new racing season starts in about a week, what better time than now to set an Iron threshold & begin targeting the cheats?

Edited July 23 by Yankiwi

[Chief Stipe]

50 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

Chief makes a very good point here.

If Iron can increase blood's ability to carry Oxygen in a similar way to which Cobalt does, GRNZ needs to set a threshold for the Iron level in urine into the rule book & the RIB's lab needs to start testing for it.

You miss the point entirely.  There is no evidence that either Fe or Co at a certain level improves performance.  I've been critical of the catchall rule across all three codes.  It tends to capture more good people than bad.

To take your point further - are you going to ban training?  Afterall improving the efficiency of the cardio-vascular system and its oxygen carrying capacity is the goal of high performance training.  Of course you can give all the Ironvita you want in training.

I'm not actually sure you really do care about animal welfare.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

Now that Cobalt has been proven to have been used within the code in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage,

There is no such proof that an unfair advantage was gained.  Indeed the limited available research shows that there isn't any advantage.

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

Since the new racing season starts in about a week, what better time than now to set an Iron threshold & begin targeting the cheats?

Again you miss the point entirely.  Clearly you have no interest in animal welfare or Greyhound Racing continuing.  Obvisiously you and @Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers attend the same meetings.

[Chief Stipe]

23 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Dunno if you know this but greyhounds aren’t horses. You don’t have any research on its effects in dogs so you can’t say it has no impact on them. 

Nor do you or you would have cited it.  Unless of course you are lazy and driven by pure ideology. 

15 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

In your wilful ignorance you miss the point that cobalt does not occur naturally in greyhounds at the level detected in Mr Pringle’s dog

Based on what research?

15 hours ago, Seeyounexttuesdaytrainers said:

Lord it gets boring having to repeat these basic facts adnauseam to you 

 What facts?  Other than Pringle admitting he administered Ironvita which caused the level of Cobalt to measure above the arbitary threshold.  What are the facts that it was performance enhancing or even detrimental to the welfare of the dog?  If it isn't OK to give Ironvita within 48 hours of a race why is it OK to administer every day for the time between races (less 2 days) which on average can be 5 to 12 days?

[Yankiwi]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

There is no such proof that an unfair advantage was gained.  Indeed the limited available research shows that there isn't any advantage.

Seems UNSW & Australian Racing Forensic Lab believe Cobalt is performance enhancing.

 

 

https://www.unsw.edu.au/science/our-research/materials-sciences/materials-sciences-research-impacts/cobalt-threshold