Thomass Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Some Clubs, like New Plymouth, have suddenly come down with the Set Weights and Penalties disease...is there no cure? Perhaps they've been influenced, paid off...even imbibed into turning a previous COMPETITIVE race into a One way procession... Just like Saturday's race CONSENSUS was gift wrapped a luxurious Weight in her last 2 starts...thanks to the FARCICAL SW&P rules of engagement The first and foremost inexplicable fact is the 18 Month rule Win a G1 within 18 months of the current race and you receive a 3kg penalty.... 18 months plus one day? NOTHING!!! Simply bizarre stuff CONSENSUS was narrowly beaten 12 months ago in a G1...surely that race indicates she was still 'competitive' and deserved a 'penalty' in line with the winner of that race? Yea Na, the winner gets 3kgs...the narrow loser....what Paddy shot at...NADA If Clubs are going to carry on this nonsense of removing all of these Iconic Handicap races...for the sake of keeping their Group Status Then take the obvious route...WFA At least that's fair...SW&P simply isn't... The connections of CONSENSUS got away with daylight robbery...their hands should be shaking as they receive their stipend 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshu Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Totally disagree.good luck to the connections of consensus. Rules are rules and they played the game and it was in their favour so kudos to them. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Disagree with what shu?? Yea yea...'good luck, well done, big ups, you legends, congrats, you're deserving' That b/s belongs over on the other site This is a debate about a FARCE Shu How can you reconcile the fact Conny received 3kgs off a neddy who beat her by sfa 12 months ago is the question... ...when she got nothing for that...or being a G1 winner? Winning a race off the Minimum...like a Maidener $90,000 gifted away Shu That could buy you an awful lot of Choos in Honkers Jimmy Did the connections of the neddys, supremely well off under SW&F All Penalties, get the Committee of NP imbibed so they'd make a rash ridiculous decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshu Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Only thing that belongs on the other site is you you village idiot 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Don't go there Joffrey...we know you can't debate topics in Te Aroha... So if you can't add anything further...let it slide son Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Don't see anything wrong with it. Trainers of horses entering know the rules. Next you'll complain about WFA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 And as a system, it's certainly not as stuffed as the handicapping one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 And there shouldn't be any black type handicap racing. What a joke that is, albeit not funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 3 in a row..well done with the Tri...you finished yet? Having 3 vastly different systems in terms of weight carried is just ridiculous Almost everyone agrees, bar you, that the SW&F All P's is totally inequitable A nose separation equals 3kg? Yea Na thanks 18 months Nothing...17 months 30 days 3 kgs? yea na thanks again The Southern Hemisphere is renowned for its Iconic Handicaps Imagine introducing the Donny or Epsom as a SW&F All P....the Aussies would fall over laughing Were destroying the fabric of our racing with this garbage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 40 minutes ago, mardigras said: And as a system, it's certainly not as stuffed as the handicapping one. Which is the real problem NOT the conditions that races are run under. I mentioned to Reefton how the class of the field that Consensus beat was nowhere near the quality of the one that we beat with Madame Shinko in 2006. You are correct that the handicapping system is one of the biggest causes of the deterioration in the quality of our fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Which is the real problem NOT the conditions that races are run under. I mentioned to Reefton how the class of the field that Consensus beat was nowhere near the quality of the one that we beat with Madame Shinko in 2006. You are correct that the handicapping system is one of the biggest causes of the deterioration in the quality of our fields. Agree...and while all kudos are due to the connections of this good mare for playing the system as it is, SW & P don't belong - IMHO. Handicaps shouldn't be in the 'pattern' system, handicaps are all about betting - and clever placing. No reason why a hcp can't be worth huge money, but a measure of the class of the breed, it isn't. Black type races - esp Grp races - are about determining the best of the breed, the best of an age group, the best filly or colt of their generation. Edited February 5, 2019 by Freda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Seen a rating 78 battler win an open class race, carried 52kg with the 2kg claimer on, wins well, then gets 5 points and carries 58.5kg in a listed race, with no claims, seems a steep jump in the weights, drops 1 point for an un placed run.l find the system hard to fathom, how many kgs does 1 point equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Shad said: l find the system hard to fathom, how many kgs does 1 point equal. 0.5 in a handicap race. To be effective, they should consider running races with a top weight around 62 down to 52. 1 point per kilo or similar. And proper handicapping of performance. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 SW&P is ridiculous -it should be abolished immediately. Black Type may be considered a measure of ability by some but often it is merely a reflection of a small field or atrocious track conditions. Somehow the world got by prior to the introduction of Pattern racing. It could only have an inkling of respectability if countries each had a set percentage of Black Type races. As things stand it is very hard to avoid black type in Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) Can you give us the number/percentage of black type in Ireland. And the same for NZ and Oz. Cheers. SW&P may be poor, but no worse than NZ handicapping. And as I said, all black type should be WFA since the idea of black type is to find the best horse. 'Iconic' handicaps can run for whatever money they like, but there is zero point in black type handicap racing. Edited February 6, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 6/02/2019 at 6:46 AM, mardigras said: 0.5 in a handicap race. To be effective, they should consider running races with a top weight around 62 down to 52. 1 point per kilo or similar. And proper handicapping of performance. Trainers go nuts if they receive anymore than 58 Have a range of 48-58 and import a whole lot of Asian kids...just like the Sth Is does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Thomass said: Trainers go nuts if they receive anymore than 58 Have a range of 48-58 and import a whole lot of Asian kids...just like the Sth Is does Bad luck for trainers then. I don't see many complaining in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 14 hours ago, mardigras said: Can you give us the number/percentage of black type in Ireland. And the same for NZ and Oz. Cheers. I can. They are about the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpiper Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I like SW&P, the conditions are straightforward and the race type serves as a stepping stone up to or back down from WFA. What I really do not like is changing the conditions of races which have a history to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 23 hours ago, mardigras said: Can you give us the number/percentage of black type in Ireland. And the same for NZ and Oz. Cheers. SW&P may be poor, but no worse than NZ handicapping. And as I said, all black type should be WFA since the idea of black type is to find the best horse. 'Iconic' handicaps can run for whatever money they like, but there is zero point in black type handicap racing. Going from memory it used to be about 15% , NZ & OZ 4-6% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 22 minutes ago, Fred said: Going from memory it used to be about 15% , NZ & OZ 4-6% I stand to be corrected but I think you are mistaken Fred. The NZ Pattern committee aim is about 5% Group and Listed races and it hovers around there. The latest figures I have for Ireland are 2016. 120 Group and Listed races from 2577 total races. 4.65%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Someone else may have more accurate or recent data? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 9 hours ago, Sandpiper said: I like SW&P, the conditions are straightforward and the race type serves as a stepping stone up to or back down from WFA. What I really do not like is changing the conditions of races which have a history to them. Somebody told me it was inequatable?? Could you show how straight forward it is please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 47 minutes ago, curious said: Someone else may have more accurate or recent data? I looked at Irish racing. Looked to be 127 from 2800 races. It is a little misleading as they also run NH. But there isn't a lot in it, and certainly no where near 15%. And from a quality perspective, I doubt we are anywhere near their level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Was that last season? Similar numbers to 2016. About 4.5%. A bit less than NZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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