curious Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Wouldn't it depend on what their budget was for gambling? I would have thought that people only lose what they can afford to lose. Anymore than that and it is pathological. Exactly. Explain that to John Allen and co in some way they can understand. Does it really matter if they lose that budget with 100 winners or 500? I suspect the result will be the same and it won't affect what they choose to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, mardigras said: I'd say you are right. And I'll add that races with shorter priced favourites attract less totalisator betting (more fixed odds betting). More of these that race (and then win) that are bet through fixed odds isn't necessarily going to help the industry. Less money bet through the tote is also not a positive. Really? All up betting helps turnover bigtime. Someone starts a $50 all up, if it keeps coming in,can easily have thousands or more on later races, so is that not creating turnover that otherwise wouldnt exsist? I know many punters that take all up bets, mostly on favoured runners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Really? All up betting helps turnover bigtime. Someone starts a $50 all up, if it keeps coming in,can easily have thousands or more on later races, so is that not creating turnover that otherwise wouldnt exsist? I know many punters that take all up bets, mostly on favoured runners. Don't confuse turnover with revenue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Really? All up betting helps turnover bigtime. Someone starts a $50 all up, if it keeps coming in,can easily have thousands or more on later races, so is that not creating turnover that otherwise wouldnt exsist? I know many punters that take all up bets, mostly on favoured runners. Can you explain how turnover helps NZ TAB. I thought their revenue was based on punters losses. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, mardigras said: Can you explain how turnover helps NZ TAB. I thought their revenue was based on punters losses. You serious? TAB get a slice of every dollar spent on turnover. Interesting to see what sort of spin you put on this. Just to confirm, so we dont turn this into punting 101 debacle, you do agree that tab get a slice of every dollar invested, at various deductions. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 32 minutes ago, Newmarket said: You serious? TAB get a slice of every dollar spent on turnover. Interesting to see what sort of spin you put on this. Just to confirm, so we dont turn this into punting 101 debacle, you do agree that tab get a slice of every dollar invested, at various deductions. If 10,000 is bet then on the tote 1,500 is taken by the TAB. That leaves 8,500 returned to the punter I.e. the winning punters. If no one puts new money in the pool then it will decrease as will the TAB takeout in dollar terms. The TAB needs losers to make money. Turnover figures only justify over the top salaries at the NZRB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 49 minutes ago, Newmarket said: You serious? TAB get a slice of every dollar spent on turnover. Interesting to see what sort of spin you put on this. Just to confirm, so we dont turn this into punting 101 debacle, you do agree that tab get a slice of every dollar invested, at various deductions. It makes no difference what I write. You have your views. Next you're going to tell me that over the course of a year, the total gross revenue from tote betting is not equal to the sum of all the losses from losing punters minus the sum of winnings from all the winning punters for the year (less any rebates they pay out and any bonus/free bet adjustments). I guess you think it works differently. Next you'll be telling me that when I put $10k on the tote, I've contributed 15% of that to their gross revenue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Newmarket said: You serious? TAB get a slice of every dollar spent on turnover. Interesting to see what sort of spin you put on this. Just to confirm, so we dont turn this into punting 101 debacle, you do agree that tab get a slice of every dollar invested, at various deductions. You can't be serious Newmarket. If I receive (on average) $12,000 for every $10,000 of turnover I do. What slice do the TAB get from that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, curious said: You can't be serious Newmarket. If I receive (on average) $12,000 for every $10,000 of turnover I do. What slice do the TAB get from that? Um minus $2k? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, curious said: You can't be serious Newmarket. If I receive (on average) $12,000 for every $10,000 of turnover I do. What slice do the TAB get from that? So every $10k you spend at the TAB, you get back $12k. No ifs, or buts, that is what you average? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, curious said: You can't be serious Newmarket. If I receive (on average) $12,000 for every $10,000 of turnover I do. What slice do the TAB get from that? 6 minutes ago, Newmarket said: So every $10k you spend at the TAB, you get back $12k. No ifs, or buts, that is what you average? That looks like an "if" to me "but" you haven't answered the question. Edited March 3, 2019 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, curious said: That looks like an "if" to me "but" you haven't answered the question. Ok, i will play your game. For a start, if a punter is making $12k from every $10k bet constantly, TAB will get rid of you quick, you know that so it was a bloody stupid question. Anyway, as per usual you and mardi swing off the subject. Now i was talking about about turnover, so which is best option. A, Curious has 2 x $1000 win tote bets on nz tab, one loses one wins paying $2, gets $2000 back. B, Newmarket has $2000 in account, he bets on most races during the day, turns over more than $5000 for the day, ends day with same money in account, $2000. So which punter made the TAB more money for the day? Surely this is easy to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Ok, i will play your game. For a start, if a punter is making $12k from every $10k bet constantly, TAB will get rid of you quick, you know that so it was a bloody stupid question. No they won't, not if that is from tote betting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Anyway, as per usual you and mardi swing off the subject. Now i was talking about about turnover, so which is best option. A, Curious has 2 x $1000 win tote bets on nz tab, one loses one wins paying $2, gets $2000 back. B, Newmarket has $2000 in account, he bets on most races during the day, turns over more than $5000 for the day, ends day with same money in account, $2000. So which punter made the TAB more money for the day? Surely this is easy to decide. You both made the TAB the same. Nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, mardigras said: You both made the TAB the same. Nothing. Correction there, the TAB makes nothing out of each individual guys pocket, but they do make much more money on Newmarkets bet acitivity. The nature of pari-mutual is the TAB's cut is taken before any divis are paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, barryb said: Correction there, the TAB makes nothing out of each individual guys pocket, but they do make much more money on Newmarkets bet acitivity. The nature of pari-mutual is the TAB's cut is taken before any divis are paid. Wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, barryb said: Correction there, the TAB makes nothing out of each individual guys pocket, but they do make much more money on Newmarkets bet acitivity. The nature of pari-mutual is the TAB's cut is taken before any divis are paid. That's largely irrelevant. Since if Newmarket loses less than the 'takeout', then the rest are simply supplying the takeout at a higher rate. Which means they are losing their allowable 'losses' faster. Which means, unless punters are prepared to lose more, again, the TAB will not make more from Newmarket's betting, if he doesn't lose. It's the TAB rules - there is nothing deducted from Newmarket's bets. It's taken from the pool. If a punter affects the level of takeout that others get, that does not help the TAB revenue. If you don't lose overall with the TAB on tote betting, you cannot claim to have contributed to their revenue. Since your bet never gets a deduction. The only revenue is your losses. Even the annual report will tell you that, along with the betting rules which reinforce that. Edited March 3, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, barryb said: Correction there, the TAB makes nothing out of each individual guys pocket, but they do make much more money on Newmarkets bet acitivity. The nature of pari-mutual is the TAB's cut is taken before any divis are paid. Thank you Barry, i was just about to jump off cliff. Think curious and mardi relate to betfair most of time. At Least TAB has started offering bonus bets on certain races, that is a start. Hopefully they will continue to offer more. I see every week i have been sent offer that if i deposit $30, i will get $20 bonus bet, its a start. Only thing, its usually only that day, so i forget, otherwise i probably would. I notice beteasy are changing all their reward points, boosts, bonus top ups etc this month. Its a competitive market at the moment, in fact at least once a month, they give me free $100 bonus bet if i top up $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Thank you Barry, i was just about to jump off cliff. Think curious and mardi relate to betfair most of time. It has nothing to do with betfair. You're asserting that you betting $5k and losing nothing will make the TAB more gross revenue than a person who bets $2k and loses nothing. To do that, the other punters must have been prepared to lose more in your case than in Curious's case. Why would that be? So suddenly, Curious has two bets and loses nothing staking $2k. And the TAB punter revenue is $50k for the day. Then you come in and bet $5k, lose nothing and yet the other punters have suddenly lost $50k + $750. Amazing. I hope you're not an accountant. Edited March 3, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, mardigras said: That's largely irrelevant. Since if Newmarket loses less than the 'takeout', then the rest are simply supplying the takeout at a higher rate. Which means they are losing their allowable 'losses' faster. Which means, unless punters are prepared to lose more, again, the TAB will not make more from Newmarket's betting, if he doesn't lose. It's the TAB rules - there is nothing deducted from Newmarket's bets. It's taken from the pool. If a punter affects the level of takeout that others get, that does not help the TAB revenue. If you don't lose overall with the TAB on tote betting, you cannot claim to have contributed to their revenue. Since your bet never gets a deduction. The only revenue is your losses. Even the annual report will tell you that, along with the betting rules which reinforce that. But, i am betting into pools. On that example, i have turned over $5k, won on some, lost on others. That 15% takeout, when does it get taken out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Newmarket said: But, i am betting into pools. On that example, i have turned over $5k, won on some, lost on others. That 15% takeout, when does it get taken out? When the race is finalised. But it isn't taken from your bet. If you lose, you don't know where your money went as it is not defined. When you win, you don't know where it has come from. But the TAB revenue is the sum of losses less the sum of winnings from a race (They know what defines the amount. The TAB rules where that % comes from the pool of money bet). Edited March 3, 2019 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, mardigras said: When the race is finalised. But it isn't taken from your bet. If you lose, you don't know where your money went as it is not defined. When you win, you don't know where it has come from. But the TAB revenue is the sum of losses less the sum of winnings from a race (They know what defines the amount. The TAB rules where that % comes from the pool of money bet). So if i lose in a race, i am paying a takeout? Regardless, the scenario above that i posted, must show that i pay more takeouts with my win- loss than curious did?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, Newmarket said: So if i lose in a race, i am paying a takeout? Regardless, the scenario above that i posted, must show that i pay more takeouts with my win- loss than curious did?? It doesn't state that in the rules of racing. The individual punter does not have a deduction from their bet. Which part of that are you not understanding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Newmarket, if I bet $10k and collect 12k, that means that some other punter/s bet 10k and collect $6k. That punter/s losses of 4k are then roughly split between my profit and the TAB's gross revenue. Not a red cent of my turnover has gone to the TAB or NZ Racing. I'm not sure that I can make that any clearer. Did you and John Allen have the same math's teacher. He also thinks that punters will suddenly be willing to lose more if they have more betting options. How stupid is that? And how is it going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, mardigras said: It doesn't state that in the rules of racing. The individual punter does not have a deduction from their bet. Which part of that are you not understanding? We have certain takeout rates on different bet types. Now i thought they were taken out when placing bet, here is the reason why. When taking exotic bets, TAB shows will pays. If you look at some small meetings, it is easy to look at doubles will pays, these are min $1 units, so its easy to see takeout has been deducted before will pays shown. Otherwise, will pays would be less that what is shown dont you think. Same as early win/ place tote odds, can clearly work out takeout has been taken. Your example is mickey mouse, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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