Pukekohe Today

[curious]

And just fyi Newmarket, I know little about betfair and don't bet with them, nor do I bet with the NZTAB more than a handful of times a year, though I may do shortly but it won't be on racing.

[Newmarket]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

Newmarket, if I bet $10k and collect 12k, that means that some other punter/s bet 10k and collect $6k. That punter/s losses of 4k are then roughly split between my profit and the TAB's gross revenue. Not a red cent of my turnover has gone to the TAB or NZ Racing. I'm not sure that I can make that any clearer. Did you and John Allen have the same math's teacher. He also thinks that punters will suddenly be willing to lose more if they have more betting options. How stupid is that?  And how is it going?

So if you lose the $10k, tab get nothing of that either? 

[curious]

2 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

So if you lose the $10k, tab get nothing of that either? 

I'm not sure what you are not understanding here. If I lose the 10k, the TAB and other punters get that. Neither get any of it if I win. This does not seem like rocket science to me. What are you missing?

[curious]

It's like your insane comment about a $50 all up. If it loses, the TAB and other punters earn $50. If it wins, neither get zippo.

[mardigras]

19 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

We have certain takeout rates on different bet types. Now i thought they were taken out when placing bet, here is the reason why.

When taking exotic bets, TAB shows will pays. If you look at some small meetings, it is easy to look at doubles will pays, these are min $1 units, so its easy to see takeout has been deducted before will pays shown. Otherwise, will pays would be less that what is shown dont you think. Same as early win/ place tote odds, can clearly work out takeout has been taken. Your example is mickey mouse, 

 

Yep, the will pays will show what is calculated after they take their allowable deduction from what is the 'pool' at that time. But if you read the NZ TAB racing rules, it states, the takeout is taken from the pool.

I can't help it if my example is mickey mouse to you. It probably just means you are struggling to understand the difference between takeout being taken from my bet versus takeout being taken from the pool of money bet. That's more your issue than mine. if you  can't grasp that, then forget replying except to indicate that you can't grasp that.

Edited March 3, 2019 by mardigras

[Newmarket]

Not sure it is me that is struggling, you have stated you have no idea what or when or how the takeout is happening? 

Lets just confirm the basics first, Firstly i always thought, and in fact told by the tab that takeouts are deducted as soon as bet is placed, so deducted amount is shown straight away in pool. You say the opposite, so yes, maybe i am finding it hard to grasp. 

So help me, I bet $100 on a horse, pays $5, so $500 return, what does the tab takeout come to? 

I lose $100, so no takeout to tab? 

[barryb]

Ok Newmarket this is my final take on it.

rounded for ease of understanding.

Barry & NM both place a $1 bet

$2 is in the pool, the TAB take 20% of the $2.  =40c

Barry wins & is paid $1.60 the TAB profit 40c which is totally funded by the loser, NM, as is Barry's 60c profit.

Now had Barry not placed a bet. $1 from NM would be in the pool, TAB take is 20% of $1 = 20c, so therefore Barry placing his bet added a further 20c to the TAB profit as the pool size expanded due to his bet.

Barry makes 60c profit the TAB makes 40c, NM funds the lot.

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by barryb

[Newmarket]

15 minutes ago, barryb said:

Ok Newmarket this is my final take on it.

rounded for ease of understanding.

Barry & NM both place a $1 bet

$2 is in the pool, the TAB take 20% of the $2.  =40c

Barry wins & is paid $1.60 the TAB profit 40c which is totally funded by the loser, NM, as is Barry's 60c profit.

Now had Barry not placed a bet. $1 from NM would be in the pool, TAB take is 20% of $1 = 20c, so therefore Barry placing his bet added a further 20c to the TAB profit as the pool size expanded due to his bet.

Barry makes 60c profit the TAB makes 40c, NM funds the lot.

 

Barry, i understand this, which i thought was the case. But the scenario i posted, i cant see how i would not pay more to the tab with takeouts due to more loses/ wins?? That is what i am struggling with. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Newmarket

[The Crucible]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Newmarket, if I bet $10k and collect 12k, that means that some other punter/s bet 10k and collect $6k. That punter/s losses of 4k are then roughly split between my profit and the TAB's gross revenue. Not a red cent of my turnover has gone to the TAB or NZ Racing. I'm not sure that I can make that any clearer. Did you and John Allen have the same math's teacher. He also thinks that punters will suddenly be willing to lose more if they have more betting options. How stupid is that?  And how is it going?

On the tote (win or place) the TAB are guaranteed to take ~15% of what you bet whether you win or lose.

In your example, but using 15% instead of the 10% that you've used, you bet $10k and other punter(s) bet $10k.  That's $20k gross in the pool and the TAB take 15% or $3k - $1.5k of your bet and $1.5k from the other punter(s).

That leaves $17k to be paid out.  You collect $12k and the other punter(s) collect $5k.

The other punter(s) made a net loss of $5k - they gave $1.5k to the TAB and they gave $3.5k to you.

And you've made a profit of $2k - $3.5k from the other punter(s) less the $1.5k you gave to the TAB.

The higher the tote turnover the better the TAB will do.

[The Crucible]

3 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Now i was talking about about turnover, so which is best option. 

A, Curious has 2 x $1000 win tote bets on nz tab, one loses one wins paying $2, gets $2000 back. 

B, Newmarket has $2000 in account, he bets on most races during the day, turns over more than $5000 for the day, ends day with same money in account, $2000. 

So which punter made the TAB more money for the day? Surely this is easy to decide. 

As per my previous post, TAB take a share of turnover - whether you win or lose, they make 15% on every bet that you place.

Therefore TAB much prefer Option B.

[Newmarket]

Thanks TC, thought same. 

[The Crucible]

Some others on here seem to have complicated a very simple totalisator process.

Everyone places their bets, the TAB takes 15% of all of those bets and pays out the balance. 

There's no difference between the TAB taking 15% of your bet or 15% of the pool.  Your bet goes in to the pool so it's the same thing.

[mardigras]

9 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Not sure it is me that is struggling, you have stated you have no idea what or when or how the takeout is happening? 

Where have I stated that. I have stated the takeout happens when the race is finalised. Pretty simple really.

[mardigras]

8 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Barry, i understand this, which i thought was the case. But the scenario i posted, i cant see how i would not pay more to the tab with takeouts due to more loses/ wins?? That is what i am struggling with. 

You're certainly struggling with this, no doubt. because you keep claiming that YOU are paying the takeout. YOU don't. The pool does.

[Newmarket]

7 minutes ago, mardigras said:

You're certainly struggling with this, no doubt. because you keep claiming that YOU are paying the takeout. YOU don't. The pool does.

You are the one struggling. Read The Crucibles posts, they make sense. 

[mardigras]

8 hours ago, The Crucible said:

On the tote (win or place) the TAB are guaranteed to take ~15% of what you bet whether you win or lose.

In your example, but using 15% instead of the 10% that you've used, you bet $10k and other punter(s) bet $10k.  That's $20k gross in the pool and the TAB take 15% or $3k - $1.5k of your bet and $1.5k from the other punter(s).

That leaves $17k to be paid out.  You collect $12k and the other punter(s) collect $5k.

The other punter(s) made a net loss of $5k - they gave $1.5k to the TAB and they gave $3.5k to you.

And you've made a profit of $2k - $3.5k from the other punter(s) less the $1.5k you gave to the TAB.

The higher the tote turnover the better the TAB will do.

The numbers of the takeout are correct. The money however, does not come from your bet. The racing rules state that. 

7 hours ago, The Crucible said:

There's no difference between the TAB taking 15% of your bet or 15% of the pool.  Your bet goes in to the pool so it's the same thing.

Of course there is. The amount is the same. Where it comes from is not defined. 

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, Newmarket said:

You are the one struggling. Read The Crucibles posts, they make sense. 

They make sense. But they're wrong. Ignorant.

[mardigras]

Pretty sure these relate to pools, not individual bets. As opposed to what The Crucible states, they are NOT the same thing.

 

(b) Statutory deduction – Win 
 
The statutory deduction for commingled Win pools will be 17.50%.   
Where a pool is scheduled to be commingled, but the Board 
decides to un-commingle the pool before any betting data is 
exchanged with the Hong Kong Jockey Club, then the statutory 
deduction for that Win pool will be the statutory deduction as listed 
in APPENDIX 1. 

“Dividend Pool” means, the sum of money placed as bets on a 
specific pool, less Refunds and statutory deductions.  From time to 
time it may also include amounts carried forward from previous 
dividend pools and may also include amounts from any Prize Reserve 
Pool. 
 

The rules refer to pools. They don't refer to any individual bet being subject to commission/takeout. Yet for some reason, you've made the leap to claim your bet has commission when all it does is give the TAB a right to take commission. No one knows who actually pays it. I know this is simple, but clearly not simple enough.

[Newmarket]

16 minutes ago, mardigras said:

They make sense. But they're wrong. Ignorant.

Oh, ok. So where does the pool come from??? FFS, its the punters you tosser,  No one knows who actually pays for it???

Jesus, well here is a guess. Maybe the punter, as i have said and others, TAKEOUT IS TAKEN OUT WHEN BET IS PLACED. You cant confirm otherwise, so you have just made yourself look farkin stupid. 

As for my earlier example, my bets placed throughout the day would have have given more money to tab, regardless of where it came from. For a so called maths genius, you can be a simple prick. Anyway, i have had enough, hopefully somebody else can put you straight as well. 

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, The Crucible said:

As per my previous post, TAB take a share of turnover - whether you win or lose, they make 15% on every bet that you place.

Therefore TAB much prefer Option B.

Wrong.  The extra $3,000 turned over was Newmarkets only for a short time.  He ended up contributing zero to TAB revenue.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Oh, ok. So where does the pool come from??? FFS, its the punters you tosser,  No one knows who actually pays for it???

Jesus, well here is a guess. Maybe the punter, as i have said and others, TAKEOUT IS TAKEN OUT WHEN BET IS PLACED. You cant confirm otherwise, so you have just made yourself look farkin stupid. 

As for my earlier example, my bets placed throughout the day would have have given more money to tab, regardless of where it came from. For a so called maths genius, you can be a simple prick. Anyway, i have had enough, hopefully somebody else can put you straight as well. 

You're wrong on this Newmarket.  I'm starting to suspect that many at the NZRB think like this.

[mardigras]

8 hours ago, The Crucible said:

As per my previous post, TAB take a share of turnover - whether you win or lose, they make 15% on every bet that you place.

Therefore TAB much prefer Option B.

I guess that's why rebates have been such a success. The annual report has been showing such a rise in profits since they were introduced. They only prefer option B in the short term, because option B doesn't deal with what the impact those bets have had on the loss rate of the other participants. The same way that high volume tote punters that don't lose are causing the remaining tote punters to lose at a faster rate than otherwise. 

They will only lose so much. But you are asserting that they will happily lose more and more just because someone else has put more money into the pools. Remind me not to go into business with you.

In this very example, if NM puts $5k into the pools and loses nothing on the day. The remaining tote punters have lost an extra $750 dollars than if he didn't bet. And you think they're just going to be happy doing that for the rest of the year.

[mardigras]

7 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

Oh, ok. So where does the pool come from??? FFS, its the punters you tosser,  No one knows who actually pays for it???

Jesus, well here is a guess. Maybe the punter, as i have said and others, TAKEOUT IS TAKEN OUT WHEN BET IS PLACED. You cant confirm otherwise, so you have just made yourself look farkin stupid. 

As for my earlier example, my bets placed throughout the day would have have given more money to tab, regardless of where it came from. For a so called maths genius, you can be a simple prick. Anyway, i have had enough, hopefully somebody else can put you straight as well. 

I didn't say the pool doesn't come from the punters. But the difference is clear. The takeout comes from the pool. It doesn't come from your bet.

I'm pretty confident it doesn't come out when my bet is taken. Since when my bet gets scratched, I get ALL my money back.

Nice to see your language. Is this how you speak to people?

Edited March 3, 2019 by mardigras

[mardigras]

9 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

As for my earlier example, my bets placed throughout the day would have have given more money to tab, regardless of where it came from. For a so called maths genius, you can be a simple prick. Anyway, i have had enough, hopefully somebody else can put you straight as well. 

Where have I said otherwise? 

You are looking so narrowly that you haven't considered the losses from the others and the impact over the year to the TAB revenue. But that is how you think. You bet more, the TAB gets more. But the results of them doing this have proven otherwise.

And then when I stated that races with shorter priced horses will have less tote turnover, you seemed to poo poo that by suggesting everyone will have those horses in their multis. 

Well I suggest you go and have a look at the betting on Winx's race as an example.

[Newmarket]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You're wrong on this Newmarket.  I'm starting to suspect that many at the NZRB think like this.

I think your wrong. So, we all agree 15 % taken from pool, if not when bet placed, when bets paid out, either way 15% deducted from total pool. 

Now that is on every pool, so for someone gambling each race, if you are even at the end of the day, yet turned over many thousands, somewhere along the way you have collected off many markets?  So takeout rates would be better for tab?