Tony Pike's Horses Scratched at Doomben for Late Treatment

[curious]

3 hours ago, Boxie said:

So Pike might be OK because the interpretation of the rule and it's application by the RIU in New Zealand has been different to OZ?

I doubt it. The definition of clear day was quite clear when the rule was gazetted in 2016 if people can't understand it from reading the rule. It could only be misinterpreted by those who haven't or can't read the rule IMO. Here is the rule as gazetted in 2016:

4. Rule 804(5) – Prohibited Substance Offences

This amendment makes it an offence to administer, attempt to administer or cause to be administered any substance that meets the definition within the Rules of an “alkalinising agent”. “Clear Day” means a 24-hour period from 12.01am to 12.00 midnight.

804(5)(a) A person, except for a Veterinarian who is an official, shall not, during a day of racing, administer by injection, nasal gastric tube, gastric tube, ventilator or nebulizer to a horse entered in a Race, or trial to which the Third Appendix hereto applies, on that day of racing any substance whatsoever, unless such administration occurred after the horse has raced or under the direction of a Stipendiary Steward or Investigator. For the purposes of this sub-Rule the day of racing is deemed to commence at 12.01am and to conclude after the last Race.

(b) A person must not administer an alkalinising agent, in any manner, to a horse which is engaged to run in any Race, trial or jump-out:

(i) at any time on the day of the scheduled Race, trial or jump-out and prior to the start of such event; and

(ii) at any time during the one Clear Day prior to 12.01am on the day of the scheduled Race, official trial, or jump-out.

[curious]

2 hours ago, mardigras said:

What benefit or otherwise the treatment causes is irrelevant. And of course I have not drawn a conclusion about previous runners. But if the log books exist, they should be examined if what Dark Beau wrote is accurate. In that case, any Pike horses to have raced in Australia are potentially in breach of that rule since its inception, and likewise in NZ since the start of the rule here.

I agree. It is the implication only of what Mr. Pike has said to Queensland stewards and we only know what has actually been reported. It is not reported that he clearly stated it is his usual practice.

However what Dark Beau said indicates that it is. Perhaps Dark Beau would revert and tell us all how he knows what he said and thus potentially confirm it or otherwise.

[wally]

19 hours ago, curious said:

Sorry Dark Beau but it's no more legal in New Zealand to administer alkalising agents the day before the race than it is in Australia. If that's what he has been doing here, the RIU should be investigating and if as reported, " Stewards fined Pike $500, accepting there had been a misunderstanding of the differing rules between Australia and New Zealand", then the stewards over there must be very gullible and have been lied to and sucked in.

The NZ rule is quite clear on this and what he was penalised for over there is equally illegal here.

804(5)(b) A person must not administer an alkalinising agent, in any manner, to a horse which is

            engaged to run in any Race, trial or jump-out: [Added 15 April 2016]

(i) at any time on the day of the scheduled Race, trial or jump out and prior to the start of such event; and

(ii) at any time during the one Clear Day prior to 12.01am on the day of the scheduled race, official trial, or jump out.

 

Someone needs to read the rules.

 

 

curious it says one clear day even though it was administered at 5 am     that makes no difference

[curious]

13 minutes ago, wally said:

curious it says one clear day even though it was administered at 5 am     that makes no difference

Not clear I get your point. 1 clear day is 12.01 am the day before raceday till 12.01am on raceday. 5 a.m. is 5 hours into that clear day, so clearly breaches the administration rule. Is that clear or am I misunderstanding your point/question?

[Boxie]

Curious from what I understand the rule is quite clear and the same as OZ.  If you are going to administer an alkalising agent you have until 12:01am on Friday if your horse is racing on the Saturday.

Now I don't know many trainers that fast work on a Thursday and given the fact that to get the full benefit from an alkalsing agent you need to give it soon after the hard workout.

A shame that the owners have copped it for two horses costs in listed 100k races.

[mardigras]

8 minutes ago, Boxie said:

Curious from what I understand the rule is quite clear and the same as OZ.  If you are going to administer an alkalising agent you have until 12:01am on Friday if your horse is racing on the Saturday.

Now I don't know many trainers that fast work on a Thursday and given the fact that to get the full benefit from an alkalsing agent you need to give it soon after the hard workout.

A shame that the owners have copped it for two horses costs in listed 100k races.

I agree, the rule is clear (and I think curious thinks the same). And that rule was broken.

[curious]

34 minutes ago, Boxie said:

Curious from what I understand the rule is quite clear and the same as OZ.  If you are going to administer an alkalising agent you have until 12:01am on Friday if your horse is racing on the Saturday.

Now I don't know many trainers that fast work on a Thursday and given the fact that to get the full benefit from an alkalsing agent you need to give it soon after the hard workout.

A shame that the owners have copped it for two horses costs in listed 100k races.

Correct Boxie and indeed a shame for the owners that the trainer did not comply with the rules, largely at their cost probably but think about this.

Let's say horses a and b both have an equally testing gallop on Tuesday. Horse a is trained by a trainer prepared to break the rules so gets treated with a recovery assisting alkalinising agent that day through Friday - 4 days. Horse b trained by a trainer complying with the rules treats his horse for only 3 days with the same treatment. Assuming the treatment has at least a minimal effect, then surely horse a has a better chance of running towards its best capability on Saturday.

So, while the rule being effected may have negatively impacted the owners of two horses in this instance, had it not been implemented it would potentially have disadvantaged the owners of all other horses in their two respective races. That's simply not fair and should be stomped out.

The larger implication is that horses given such an illegal advantage may perform better than punters expect them to. So, this behaviour potentially disadvantages punters who expect all horses to be treated equally and within the rules as well and punters are the ones that provide the revenue that provides stakes for owners. To continue to do that, they need to trust that rules are being adhered to and there is a level playing field in the same way that other owners and trainers do.

 

[MaltedMilkshake]

All I can say is if they were my horses there would be no way I’m coping the scratching fees and any associated costs.  The trainer can stump up for those .....

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, MaltedMilkshake said:

All I can say is if they were my horses there would be no way I’m coping the scratching fees and any associated costs.  The trainer can stump up for those .....

You'd have good grounds. A mistake totally at the hands of the trainer/staff and nothing to do with the owner I would have thought. It is diffcult to fathom how such an incident ever came about especially for such an experienced trainer who has often traveled horses.

[curious]

12 minutes ago, mardigras said:

You'd have good grounds. A mistake totally at the hands of the trainer/staff and nothing to do with the owner I would have thought. It is diffcult to fathom how such an incident ever came about especially for such an experienced trainer who has often traveled horses.

Especially when a colleague was pinged for the same thing at Flemington 18 months ago. https://www.racenet.com.au/news/xtravagant-trainer-fined-for-treatment-20160910

It just seems that everyone else knows it's illegal both here and in Oz but if he were intending to cheat, why would he enter the illegal treatment in the log that investigators were likely to peruse and then mislead Queensland stewards about NZ rules? Something doesn't add up.

[The Centaur]

 

1 hour ago, curious said:

It just seems that everyone else knows it's illegal both here and in Oz but if he were intending to cheat, why would he enter the illegal treatment in the log that investigators were likely to peruse and then mislead Queensland stewards about NZ rules? Something doesn't add up.

Yes it appears Pike was caught out only because he or the staff wrote it up in the stable log book. In other words was Pike being too honest? If nothing had been written up nothing would have happened.

In my short stint as owner/trainer back on the seventies there used to be a 7 day rule meaning any treatments given 7 days prior to racing had to be notified to the club by 5.00pm Friday before the Saturday. Being honest and perhaps naive I notified them. Then come Saturday morning at breakfast at the accommodation house a club rep came up to me and said we've scratched your horse because the withholding period for the ointment had changed. Thereafter I never bothered with the notification and I don't think many others were doing either.

[von Smallhaussen]

9 hours ago, The Centaur said:

 

Yes it appears Pike was caught out only because he or the staff wrote it up in the stable log book. In other words was Pike being too honest? If nothing had been written up nothing would have happened.

just goes to show that Pikey is a good bloke that believes that if you are going to cheat you must cheat fairly. ?

Edited May 13, 2018 by von Smallhaussen

[wally]

On 14/05/2018 at 6:43 AM, von Smallhaussen said:

just goes to show that Pikey is a good bloke that believes that if you are going to cheat you must cheat fairly. ?

rumour has it pike was dobbed in by a local trainer

[curious]

32 minutes ago, wally said:

rumour has it pike was dobbed in by a local trainer

In many professions, doing so is an ethical obligation. Should racing be different? Watch or know someone's cheating and mum's the word? No wonder punters and funding are fleeing NZ racing.

[curious]

Is there any word on whether the RIU are following up with an investigation on this?

[Rowley Mile]

Not this side of the ditch Curious, nada, zilch........treading on eggshells, a Pandora's box.....

[Rowley Mile]

When I was training here in Oz, ignorance was no excuse, you either knew the rules or you didn't, but if you told porkies to the stipes, well, you got plenty, and it wasn't good plenty!