Thomass Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 18 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Also the study only looked at grade 4 EIPH I.e. epistaxis which is the extreme where bleeding from both nostrils occur. Research has also shown that certain environmental conditions and training regimes can be linked to EIPH. Given that 90% of race horses experience EIPH to some degree the following statement makes sense: “When we consider that the Thoroughbred (racing) population is closed (no out-crossing to other breeds), we must remain conscious of the fact that the breed may not be able to afford the loss of a large number of horses from the gene pool because this may also result in a loss of a number of good traits as well as genes for epistaxis,” Velie said. Honestly...let's take it 'as read' that most Bleed....we all know this... Again...OBVIOUSLY it's the degree they bleed...High degree it's @ 1/2% some say 3%.... And let's come up to present day Speed on this Drug thing Theres a real push now for 'World Wide' Racing Rules...that includes 'Drug Free' racing... Its hard to imagine World Jurisdictions allowing the use of this Drug any further... ..taking into account that it's also a MASKING AGENT for other drugs... ...so the Feds show up to do an out of competition test the week before...Trainers says "oh weve just given it LASIX so we can train WINX harder" Yea na...this DRUG has had its day I'm afraid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 21, 2019 Author Share Posted November 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: There is no evidence that it is performance enhancing and it can't be used immediately prior to a race!!!! Do you want it published if a trainer doesn't give a horse water 24 hours before a race or a training gallop? Oh that's right you v the HEAD VET RACING VIC. ffs And it's simply a ridiculous example you give...when LASIX admin' is 4 hours before racing so they race dehydrated after 4 not 24! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Thomass said: Theres a real push now for 'World Wide' Racing Rules...that includes 'Drug Free' racing... In OZ and NZ it isn't used in racing but allowed in TRAINING. If you introduce "drug free training" then you will impact the health and welfare of ALL thoroughbreds in training. 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: taking into account that it's also a MASKING AGENT for other drugs This assumption has been disproven. It was assumed because a horse receiving Lasix urinated about 15 litres of urine in an hour that it was helping to flush detectable metabolites. Modern day testing has disproved this assumption. Again it is not used in racing in OZ and NZ only training and there is a 48 hour withholding period. 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: "oh weve just given it LASIX so we can train WINX harder" I'm not aware of anyone making that statement let alone the trainer of WINX - Chris Waller. It is another piece of fiction that you have written. 8 minutes ago, Thomass said: Yea na...this DRUG has had its day I'm afraid... If that does occur it will be a sad day for the welfare of the thoroughbred race horse as there are no effective alternative treatments for the endemic condition of EIPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 30 minutes ago, Thomass said: Oh that's right you v the HEAD VET RACING VIC. ffs That are many vets that are respected in their field of equine medicine that have publicly stated that Lasix isn't performance enhancing. As for the head vet of Victorian Racing after he and his associates disputed the opposing opinion from the world's leading equine orthopaedician of the their reasons for scratching two horses from the Melbourne Cup nominations I start to doubt his ability. Also trotting up on raceday a stallion in front of fillies and mares 45 minutes before it races doesn't seem to be a sound animal management practice when the said horse could have been tested much earlier in the day. 30 minutes ago, Thomass said: And it's simply a ridiculous example you give...when LASIX admin' is 4 hours before racing so they race dehydrated after 4 not 24! It's not a ridiculous example but your response highlights your lack of knowledge and plain ignorance on the subject. Lasix CANNOT be administered 4 hours before a race in OZ or NZ!! The full rehydration after a Lasix dose can take up to 72 hours primarily because the horse doesn't feel the need to drink. Again you could replicate this effect by not providing water for the 24 hours before a horse races presumably to simulate the supposed performance enhancement of being 15kg's lighter. Indeed I'm aware that some trainers do this in a process called "drawing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: That are many vets that are respected in their field of equine medicine that have publicly stated that Lasix isn't performance enhancing. As for the head vet of Victorian Racing after he and his associates disputed the opposing opinion from the world's leading equine orthopaedician of the their reasons for scratching two horses from the Melbourne Cup nominations I start to doubt his ability. Also trotting up on raceday a stallion in front of fillies and mares 45 minutes before it races doesn't seem to be a sound animal management practice when the said horse could have been tested much earlier in the day. It's not a ridiculous example but your response highlights your lack of knowledge and plain ignorance on the subject. Lasix CANNOT be administered 4 hours before a race in OZ or NZ!! The full rehydration after a Lasix dose can take up to 72 hours primarily because the horse doesn't feel the need to drink. Again you could replicate this effect by not providing water for the 24 hours before a horse races presumably to simulate the supposed performance enhancement of being 15kg's lighter. Indeed I'm aware that some trainers do this in a process called "drawing." I think it's difficult to use VIC as an example chief, VIC has been behind everywhere, except NZ for ever on things like Integrity, Transparency you name it, bullying was and still is a serious issue within the VIC industry, they can't hold their heads up at all, the prosecution of their cobalt cases are now front and centre, they really are a basket case and only ever so slightly in front of the ridiculed and inept RIU and JCA in NZ.......having said that, NZ has some world class vets, Tim Pearce up in the CD as an example, VIC on the other hand, well you've seen the capabilities of some there, the less said about VIC the better.....IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 22, 2019 Author Share Posted November 22, 2019 23 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: That are many vets that are respected in their field of equine medicine that have publicly stated that Lasix isn't performance enhancing. As for the head vet of Victorian Racing after he and his associates disputed the opposing opinion from the world's leading equine orthopaedician of the their reasons for scratching two horses from the Melbourne Cup nominations I start to doubt his ability. Also trotting up on raceday a stallion in front of fillies and mares 45 minutes before it races doesn't seem to be a sound animal management practice when the said horse could have been tested much earlier in the day. It's not a ridiculous example but your response highlights your lack of knowledge and plain ignorance on the subject. Lasix CANNOT be administered 4 hours before a race in OZ or NZ!! The full rehydration after a Lasix dose can take up to 72 hours primarily because the horse doesn't feel the need to drink. Again you could replicate this effect by not providing water for the 24 hours before a horse races presumably to simulate the supposed performance enhancement of being 15kg's lighter. Indeed I'm aware that some trainers do this in a process called "drawing." Really? Who, Yankee Vets with shares in the LASIX industry? Get a grip...15 kgs lighter and they don't run faster? pfffft The World's moving on from the way Waller and his mates train...if HK and Germany can do it the World can can.... The Thoroughbred breed has NEVER been so weak..1952 average 40 starts...now down to 10.... LASIX weakens a Horse's physiology...Imagine the effect of constantly running dehydrated.... The SOCIAL LICENSE to race Thoroughbreds is rapidly becoming a 'thang'... Why are we still putting weaned foals through needless branding pain when the tech has long existed to get rid? The constant needling of Thoroughbreds on race day to test for go fast bloods...some despise the process... SOCIAL LICENSE...paste it in your hats and say NO to LASIX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 24, 2019 Author Share Posted November 24, 2019 Where are you boys...pretty much accepted the inevitable of no WINX like admin? Heres a HK study that should put yous fellas well and truely to bed... HK doesn't need it...we don't need it.... Bleeding Bucks?: Hong Kong EIPH Study Results Released Back to: Shared Content Archive Horses based in Hong Kong that experience exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhaging (EIPH) raced just as long as their non-bleeding contemporaries without the addition of furosemide, commonly known as Lasix, according to a study published Friday by researchers from the Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center. These findings resulted from one of the first reports using epidemiologic analysis of longitudinal data regarding the Thoroughbred racehorse. Dr. Stephanie A. Preston, MS, PhD, of the Equine Soundness and Sports Medicine Program of the Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center at the University of Kentucky and one of the paper’s co-authors said, “The first thing that is very important is the epidemiologic analysis of longitudinal data. The longitudinal component means that we are analyzing data throughout the career of the horse. We don’t have access to that kind of information in the United States which is why I went to Hong Kong.” She said, “What I think is most important over all about this finding is that the health status of a Thoroughbred racehorse is not a static moment in time. It can’t be measured as such. You can’t simply scope a horse one time and grade its severity and be certain and have any confidence whatsoever after reading my paper, that the result is actually a good reflection of the horse’s disease status over time. It’s a very good example of why we need to look at research more closely.” A member of the industry for 25 years prior to obtaining her PhD, Preston noted that her experiences as a jockey and as a manager of her family’s racing stable were vital in her approach to this research. “I have always been a diehard medication person,” Preston continued. “Every single horse that we ran, they raced on Lasix. Why I went back to get a PhD in the first place is that I am very passionate about issues that are related to welfare and racing. Obviously that’s become a very important topic for all of us these past few years.” Preston added, “It’s important to have data and scientific evidence to form our opinion and certainly to form our policies.” Preston’s approach was specifically centered on using racehorses that were actually still racing, so the results could be as applicable to the Lasix question as possible. “It is very important to the industry because it’s based on real-life horses,” Preston remarked. “What prompted me to do this study is I’m actually very interested in lameness and the number of injuries that we see in Thoroughbreds and what’s causing that. Why constantly every year, are we seeing fewer and fewer starts for the American horses when the rest of the world is not having that problem?” Armed with the Hong Kong Jockey Club data from her original lameness study, Preston turned her attention to one of the major differences between U.S. racing and the majority of the rest of the world–Lasix use. Preston set out to discover what happens when you don’t run on Lasix. An overarching theme with the Hong Kong Jockey Club is the idea of total transparency, so that the bettor may participate with maximum confidence. Hong Kong does not breed their own horses, so all data collected was from active racehorses in training. For the purposes of increasing uniformity, all of the data was collected from 822 imported New Zealand-bred geldings of the 836 total horses imported from that country between 2007-2012. “For a lot of different reasons, the Hong Kong Jockey Club controls everything,” Preston said. “They have totally revamped the racing model and gotten into the mode of complete transparency. Every record that can influence a bettor’s decision to bet on Horse A versus Horse B is known to them, including their veterinary records. I think the model works because people feel very confident in their betting strategies because they have complete information.” Preston’s study divided the horses into four groups: those that bled (EIPH+), those that did not bleed (EIPH-), those that experienced bleeding from the nostrils (epistaxis) and those that were not examined through endoscopy. EIPH+ horses were divided further according to the severity of their bleeding (1-4, with 4 being highest barring epistaxis) and highest severity grade (in incidents of multiple levels of EIPH+ observed) to see if there was any correlation between severity grades and causes of retirement. A majority–732/822 horses–had at least one endoscopic exam during the study duration, with 99% of those individuals examined experiencing multiple examinations. EIPH+ was diagnosed most often after racing 256/405 (63%); then after breezing 220/405 (54%); after a barrier trial 180/405 (44%); and 48/405 (11%) after an official veterinary examination. Usually, EIPH+ horses experience multiple levels of severity of EIPH+ during their careers, but lower levels of EIPH were more common in the population, than the higher levels. Also, if a horse experienced a high level of EIPH, they usually experienced a lower level of EIPH during their careers: grade three (74%), grade four (76%), and epistaxis (85%). “It doesn’t appear to affect their performance, but I haven’t been able to model that over time and say only horses that reach a severity of grade three actually go on to a higher grade,” said Preston. Horses that were EIPH+ made a higher number of lifetime starts, but not significantly different than EIPH- horses (p=0.17). Number of starts was associated with EIPH, not age. The study also found that horses that were EIPH+ were retired after a longer period of time from importation than the horses in the other groups. Ninety percent of horses that experienced epistaxis 27/30 were voluntarily retired, whereas EIPH+ horses with a maximum grade of less than three were retired for other reasons than EIPH (85%). Horses that experienced a minimum grade of three or higher EIPH were retired for EIPH-related reasons (52%). “There doesn’t appear to be a reliable pattern of progression,” added Preston. “The horses that bleed a one or a two severity seem to keep doing fine. They might bleed a two then a three, then back to a one.” Considering that the U.S. spends well over $100 million a year administering Lasix, determining if the drug helps decrease the bleeding severity with reliable data is an important next step. “What my paper does not answer is if Lasix can decrease the severity,” added Preston. “I think the next question is: does it in fact reduce the severity of bleeding and if it does, that is a whole different discussion. If Lasix doesn’t, and its only effect is weight loss and that increases the performance, than I don’t think there is any debate about whether we should do away with the race-day use of Lasix.” “There is data to suggest that the better horses for whatever reason, perhaps exertion, tend to bleed a little bit more, but it doesn’t affect their overall health status or number of races run,” she said. “I would be a very, very strong proponent of the methodology behind the scientific work that says horses in Hong Kong race absolutely perfectly fine without the pre-race administration of furosemide. In fact, they have longer careers than in the United States.” Asked if she felt the Hong Kong horses’ results reflect what we would find in the U.S. population in terms of bleeding frequency and severity, Preston pointed out the scarcity of data. “When your sample is representative of the population, you can then draw inferences in the paper from the population,” Preston commented. “I don’t have that data to make that comparison, but I don’t think there is any biological reason that New Zealand-bred horses that would be racing in Hong Kong would be any different than any other Thoroughbred population in the world.” Preston originally integrated performance parameters, winning percentages, earnings and other factors into the study, but found that it became too complicated for a single paper. She is already hard at work on the next step concerning the Lasix issue. “It did make sense to me, the more involved I got, to separate them,” she added. “The first question is what happens when we race without Lasix. The second question is, what happens amongst horses with different pedigrees, which is a proxy in the next study for country of origin. Thirdly, let’s talk about what happens to performance. I really would hope that this discussion engages people in the idea that we need to do more research and rely less on subjective opinions.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Thanks for the article Thomaas but I fail to see how it actually supports your argument. It raises more questions than answers and the most important question of whether Lasix alleviates EIPH is not addressed. Keep cherry picking Google for something that actually supports you argument. BTW you never answered my question about what the German racing jurisdiction does with horses that bleed. The answer is they allow them to continue to race. Doesn't say much for their animal welfare and race safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 Yes, I think it's called EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE... "HK horses race just fine without LASIX, in fact longer careers than the US" And one would think with HK's confined horse status the problem would be greater than jurisdictions like Australasia... We don't need it and Waller certainly doesn't need to give WINX like horses anymore... I wonder why they're struggling to get her in foal? As for Germany...Everyone knows there's 'degrees' of....but they certainly won't breed from the worst sufferers...EPISTAXIS... ...or breed from Horses having raced with drugs in their system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thomass said: "HK horses race just fine without LASIX, in fact longer careers than the US" But they still bleed and there was not comparative analysis with those given Lasix. No doubt there are other reasons why Hong Kong horses have longer careers for example there is ample evidence that the synthetic tracks in USA are proving detrimental to horse longevity. The sample that the data was collected from were ALL New Zealand geldings and the assumption was made that that subset of the global horse population was representative of the whole. It can't possibly be when one considers the differences in the rearing of young horses here compared to the rest of the world. 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: We don't need it and Waller certainly doesn't need to give WINX like horses anymore... You keep saying this but where is the evidence to prove that WINX was on Lasix? 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: I wonder why they're struggling to get her in foal? Your inference that it has something to do with Lasix is drawing a long bow. But I guess we couldn't expect anything less from a conspiracist. I thought with your often self promoted experience working on stud farms that you would know that getting a racehorse in foal soon after finishing her race career isn't always easy. 10 minutes ago, Thomass said: And one would think with HK's confined horse status the problem would be greater than jurisdictions like Australasia... Why would it be? The horses spend most of their time in a controlled environment. Keep on Googling you might find something that supports your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 So let's put this nonsense to bed once and for all....from a neddys mouth... Not only race day..but IN TRAINING as well...as happens in HK... why should Punters have to put up with totally inaccurate training times? HK Punters said na...the Suits said..ok... ‘Bleeding in horses is not a problem that requires fixing’ In fact it is worse than that. It actually only really provides an advantage to the trainer who brings the horse to the race in a poor condition. That horse’s performance will benefit more from pre-race painkillers than one brought sound and feeling well. How is that good? But still, they all run a bit harder, further increasing their chances of a sudden injury. And they come back often sorer than they would have been if they hadn’t been treated, if they hadn’t pushed themselves quite so hard. Lasix is a diuretic used to lessen the severity of bleeding. It eliminates water in the horse, lowers its weight and, whether through that mechanism or another unknown one, studies suggest it can increase a horse’s racing time by one second (around seven lengths). See previous paragraph as to why that is a problem. I have said before that bleeding in horses is not a problem that requires fixing. I trained a horse that first bled as a 3-year old. It won a Graded stakes as an 8-year-old. He ran 69 races for me. He is 26 now. I never medicated him for bleeding, for racing or training. He is grazing in a paddock in Kentucky now. He has cost us an arm and a leg and remains in rude health. Minor bleeds are not a serious health or welfare issue. If the horse bleeds to an extent it negatively impacts performance, tough. That animal is not fit for purpose. Retire it, find it another life. Do not breed from it. The old adage is breed the best to the best and hope for the best - not breed the unsound bleeder to the unsound bleeder and find some stronger meds. The combination of Bute and Lasix treatment has another consequence, - ironically one they were introduced to combat. They were brought in to keep horses racing more regularly and so help maintain field sizes. Lasix dehydrates the horse, and both drugs tend to enable the horse to run harder and faster than it would without those drugs. Add in the often very hot conditions horses run in the USA and it is perhaps not surprising that starts per year per horse have declined ever since pre-race medication was introduced. It takes horses longer to recover from their races, because they have run harder on a tough surface and are dehydrated. And the public looks on with mistrust and distaste, and now I have to say, to the Stronach Group, to Churchill Downs Inc, to CHRB (California Horse Racing Board), to KHRC (Kentucky Horse Racing Commission), to NYRA (New York Racing Association), what don’t you get? Race-day medications should have gone long ago. For the perception of the sport. For the short-term welfare of horse and rider. For the long-term integrity of the Thoroughbred breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Keep Googling Thomaas I'm sure you can cherry pick more opinion. Are you going to promote making it illegal to not give horses any water 24 hours before a race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 I subscribe to numerous Veterinary Journals so I'm certainly up to date with the latest... That article was in this weeks TDN, so I thought you could LEARN something... Trainers can do whatever they like to produce 'best performance'...but if they're on Drugs... Punters are ENTITLED to know about it...ask HK punters They have access to ALL Vet and Drug admins...and so they should... Just as WE SHOULD...and that's coming here...paste that In your top hat Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Again the article is opinion with no quantifiable evidence to back it up. Geez he uses a sample size of ONE to assert that horses don't need it. AGAIN it refers to meds used for race day which doesn't apply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 4 hours ago, Thomass said: Punters are ENTITLED to know about it...ask HK punters They have access to ALL Vet and Drug admins...and so they should... Hong Kong has a closed system. It isn't even comparable to New Zealand. As for knowing "every medication" a horse has in training provides no useful information to the punter. Of course you will now show us how it influences you bets in the Hong Kong market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 This is going round in circles. As far as my humble opinion goes, I am - and have been for years - aware that most horses bleed. Some bleed all the time, some less often, but that is the unfortunate reality of equine physiology, added to the fact that we ask far more of them than they are designed to do. The practice here in NZ of requiring a horse to be stood down is, I feel, not entirely fair. With the knowledge that most horses do bleed, it seems unfair to discriminate against a horse that shows blood from the nostrils when most of the field it has competed against will be bleeding too, just less obviously. I assess my horses as to their performance, if they are racing well and consistently, I assume that they are coping with the level of disability ok. If they are not, then bleeding is considered, along with a raft of other possibilities including lack of ability....and their future is decided on the basis of that assessment. If a runner has a bad bleed and drops out of contention, clearly that animal isn't able to cope at all, and another job should be considered - IMO. One of my better performers - Ranger - a good middle-distance animal [ winner of the Easter Classic and Grt Autumn Hcp when those races were really worth winning ] bled badly before he ever went to the races. He won nine, bled nearly every time. But when he won his last race, the Greymouth Cup, he scraped home just beating horses that a year or so earlier he would have beaten with a leg tied up. I retired him with the full support of his owner. The Lasix argument doesn't concern me, I don't believe in drug-assisted performance. Whether it is scientific or not, I support the stance taken by Japan and Germany in their quest for the superior performer. As in the quoted article, the best and soundest racehorses are COPING with the condition better than their peers. A recent addition to our stallion ranks was a known bleeder in Europe...he won't be the only one of course, but has a high profile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 Compared to the rest of the World we have far tougher 'bleeders' rules... So that should be changed... Do you know of any trainers using LASIX here then Freda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Thomass said: Compared to the rest of the World we have far tougher 'bleeders' rules... So that should be changed... Do you know of any trainers using LASIX here then Freda? No...but I wouldn't be likely to, I don't have any interest in who is using what, 'cos I don't bother. Some might say I should, looking at a patch of less-than-stellar form....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 Fair enough...only asked to get a gauge how widespread it is here...especially after Wallers fine for getting caught Its part of this 'Social License' they're talking about though isn't it? If HK doesn't need it, even with their confined possibly more dusty confinement... ...we shouldn't...also skewing training reports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 20 hours ago, Thomass said: Fair enough...only asked to get a gauge how widespread it is here...especially after Wallers fine for getting caught Its part of this 'Social License' they're talking about though isn't it? If HK doesn't need it, even with their confined possibly more dusty confinement... ...we shouldn't...also skewing training reports Certainly, in my small circles, no indication that Lasix is being used, but that is very local. Couldn't possibly comment about other areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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