How Many Jockey's Will Sign Up For This?

[Thomass]

What is?

I think you'll find I've been anti Whip for years if that's the problem Freda?

The research in fact found an average 3L advantage to Whip races cf non whip according to Oz Form guru Dan O'Sullivan....

Im tipping NZTR will gradually ease into @8 in totality with zero consecutive strides allowed...they'll never do anything too radical...just follow the other sheep

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Thomass said:

The research in fact found an average 3L advantage to Whip races cf non whip according to Oz Form guru Dan O'Sullivan....

You still haven't posted any links to any reputable research. 

[Thomass]

I'm baking me Vogel like bread today...busy az

Ive shown you how to use Googs before...Just do that...then look up Dan O'Sullivan on twitter....

"whipping makes them go faster"

Its inda stats...ok?

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Ive shown you how to use Googs before...Just do that...then look up Dan O'Sullivan on twitter....

 

I mean "scientific research" not some punter's musings!

[Thomass]

I don't think theres many scientists involved in form analysis...Curious may say she's one..but she simply lectures on how to become one...

No, Dan is the Doyen of Oz Form...cadence, splits, et el...you think it he does it

Just accept what he says is legit...Betfear got him on board and they don't employ widgets...ok?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Thomass said:

I don't think theres many scientists involved in form analysis...Curious may say she's one..but she simply lectures on how to become one...

No, Dan is the Doyen of Oz Form...cadence, splits, et el...you think it he does it

Just accept what he says is legit...Betfear got him on board and they don't employ widgets...ok?

Geez you are the master of obfuscation!  

I asked for links to the science that show horses experience pain.  Once you have done that can you then provide us with some evidence that there is a causative link between the whip, pain and horses going faster.

With regard to your "Dan the Punting Expert" - can you provide us with links to his data that provides evidence to support his assertion that whipping makes horses go faster.

 

[Nostradamus]

On 28/01/2021 at 1:54 PM, Chief Stipe said:

Neither get to ride mug or poorly trained and educated horses.

That's not true they do ride bad horses, they even travel up and down the UK riding allsorts even on the AWT. The whip rule works every where else on this planet so why can't it work in NZ. When watching the extremely poor horsemanship of kiwi jockeys it's far from world class, in fact it's an embarrassment to the world horse race industry. A true horseman/woman does not need to bash a horse to the line it's disgraceful. It's time for NZ racing to be apart of the 21st century and the big wigs need to take them pretty rose glasses off before it really is to late. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Nostradamus said:

That's not true they do ride bad horses, they even travel up and down the UK riding allsorts even on the AWT. The whip rule works every where else on this planet so why can't it work in NZ.

We were talking about banning whips completely.  However the rules vary between jurisdictions.  These are the rules in the UK:

https://www.thepja.co.uk/service/whip-use/#:~:text=Whip Rules,whip in some other way.

UK Whip Rules

The permitted number of uses of the whip with hands off the reins is 7 times for Flat races and 8 times for Jumps race.

Stewards will consider whether to hold an enquiry if a rider has used his whip 8 times or more in a Flat race or 9 times or more in a Jump race or misused the whip in some other way.

When deciding whether or not to hold an enquiry, Stewards will consider how the rider has used the whip during the course of the entire race, with particular attention to its use in the closing stages, and relevant factors such as:

1. The manner in which the whip was used, including the degree of force
2. The purpose for which the whip was used
3. The distance over which the whip was used and whether the number of times it was used was reasonable and necessary
4. Whether the horse was continuing to respond.

Provided that the manner in which the whip had been used was measured, Stewards may choose to disregard occasions when the whip has been used in the following circumstances:

All Races

1. To keep a horse in contention or to maintain a challenging position prior to what would be considered the closing stages of a race
2. To maintain a horse’s focus and concentration
3. To correct a horse that is noticeably hanging
4. Where there is only light contact with the horse

Jump Races

1. Following a mistake at an obstacle
2. To correct a horse that is running down an obstacle.
3. Stewards may be less tolerant about should a rider use the whip 8 times or more in a Flat race or 9 times or more in a Jump race:
4. When the horse is young or inexperienced
5. When a rider continues to use the whip when not being directly challenged for a finishing position
6. When a rider fails to recognise that his use of the whip is not having the intended effect.

[curious]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Geez you are the master of obfuscation!  

I asked for links to the science that show horses experience pain.  Once you have done that can you then provide us with some evidence that there is a causative link between the whip, pain and horses going faster.

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2020/11/12/first-conclusive-evidence-horses-hurt-by-whips--whips-don-t-aid-.html

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, curious said:

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2020/11/12/first-conclusive-evidence-horses-hurt-by-whips--whips-don-t-aid-.html

Spot the flaws in the research methodology.

[Basil]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Spot the flaws in the research methodology.

Well, go on then Chief — enlighten us.

[Chief Stipe]

For a start the second study was an analysis of Stewards reports which are subjective in themselves.  They also compared the non-whip races ridden by Apprentices vs whip races ridden by some Apprentices and fully fledged Jockey's.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

For a start the second study was an analysis of Stewards reports which are subjective in themselves.  They also compared the non-whip races ridden by Apprentices vs whip races ridden by some Apprentices and fully fledged Jockey's.

Have you read the papers?

[curious]

They contradict Thommo's claims.

To summarise, the results of this study show that jockeys in
more advanced placings at the 400 and 200 m positions before the
post in races whip their horses more frequently. To gain the
advantageous placings at 400 m positions, no horses were whipped
while between the 400 and 200 m positions only half were
whipped. On average, they achieved highest speeds when there
was no whip use, and the increased whip use was most frequent in
fatigued horses. That increased whip use was not associated with
significant maintenance of velocity as a predictor of superior race
placing at the finish of the race. Further studies with on-board
sensors of gait characteristics are required to study responses to
whipping in individual horses.
The authors conclude that, under an ethical framework that
considers costs paid by horses against benefits accrued by humans
[11], these data make whipping tired horses in the name of sport
very difficult to justify. However, it is worth noting that other
ethical frameworks would not condone the practice even if it did,
contrary to the findings of this study, cause horses to run faster.

Edited February 5, 2021 by curious

[Gammalite]

Whether you have a whip or not a jockey /harness driver is virtually trying to 'Scare ' the horse into going faster.

There is a LOT of noise (vocally) on the ' home bend' at any racetrack in I would say every race!, as the ' human component' tries to coerce his charge to give it all they've got .

The whip can make a lot of noise and is useful in this task as well. (You can only yell and scream so much) unless you are Damien Oliver who has endless resource of vocal energy at a great decibel too !!! lol....

The whip can be handy to wave up outside the winkers to 'Threaten' the horse and scare it to give more effort as well. Jockeys do a GREAT job with this technique.

NO JOCKEY or DRIVER wants to physically hurt a horse with the whip. They are just trying to win the race.

I would be happy to go without a Whip if so requested by Rule Changes and try it out.

BUT I can say in the 500 odd races I competed in , a whip helped 'coerce' the horse in some way in 100% of those races. Definitely would of been far fewer Placed results without it. It's very hard keeping them going after a pressure event like a horse race at those speeds.!!

[Basil]

14 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

For a start the second study was an analysis of Stewards reports which are subjective in themselves.  They also compared the non-whip races ridden by Apprentices vs whip races ridden by some Apprentices and fully fledged Jockey's.

Yes, stewards' reports are somewhat subjective, but hard to see why they would be systematically biased in one direction or another. With a big enough sample, this isn't a major issue.  And what do you suggest should be used instead?

As for the comparison issue, that's precisely the point.  It's actually a rather clever, and obvious, identification strategy.  Any possible bias resulting from differences between apprentice and senior jockeys would work in the opposite direction — towards finding more dangerous incidents in the (non-whip-yielding) apprentice races.

You asked for scientific evidence and were provided with it. Simply dismissing it out of hand, without even reading it, because you don't want it to be right isn't a very convincing argument. 

[Dark Beau]

On 4/02/2021 at 8:31 PM, Thomass said:

Im tipping NZTR will gradually ease into @8 in totality with zero consecutive strides allowed...they'll never do anything too radical...just follow the other sheep

Sadly we will follow like sheep!

Why the modern NZ'er can mostly only follow I don't know? [Jacinda Ardern excepted]

Why we think Australian's are better administrators [TAB and NZTR] I don't know?

Once upon a time NZ led the way in so many things from giving Women the vote, to conquering Everest, to discovering the proton or splitting the atom as it was colloquially known, when I was a kid. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Basil said:

Yes, stewards' reports are somewhat subjective, but hard to see why they would be systematically biased in one direction or another. With a big enough sample, this isn't a major issue.  And what do you suggest should be used instead?

As for the comparison issue, that's precisely the point.  It's actually a rather clever, and obvious, identification strategy.  Any possible bias resulting from differences between apprentice and senior jockeys would work in the opposite direction — towards finding more dangerous incidents in the (non-whip-yielding) apprentice races.

You asked for scientific evidence and were provided with it. Simply dismissing it out of hand, without even reading it, because you don't want it to be right isn't a very convincing argument. 

You've contradicted yourself.  On the one hand you admit bias then proclaim it to be scientific evidence.  It is neither scientific nor evidence.

[Basil]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You've contradicted yourself.  On the one hand you admit bias then proclaim it to be scientific evidence.  It is neither scientific nor evidence.

Time for a little lesson in research design. In attempting to test a hypothesis, one is always exposed to a variety of problems, including statistical bias, i.e., the possibility that the parameter you're trying to estimate (in this case the mean of the number of dangerous incidents in a race) is higher or lower than its true value.  Far from 'admitting' such bias, I've simply pointed out that any possible bias in this case — if it exists at all — actually strengthens the researchers' conclusion. Why? Because if whip use actually enhances safety, then the inclusion of whip-yielding apprentices (who are likely to be less 'safe' in general) in open races should make the observed 'safety' difference between open and apprentice races greater still. That even after this the estimated difference is zero makes the result stronger, not weaker.

Having taken a quick look at the paper itself, and as someone with considerable experience in empirical research, I can confirm it's certainly evidence for the view that whip usage doesn't enhance safety and that it follows established scientific methods. That you personally don't like its conclusions doesn't undermine its validity.      

[billy connolly]

17 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Whether you have a whip or not a jockey /harness driver is virtually trying to 'Scare ' the horse into going faster.

There is a LOT of noise (vocally) on the ' home bend' at any racetrack in I would say every race!, as the ' human component' tries to coerce his charge to give it all they've got .

The whip can make a lot of noise and is useful in this task as well.

Correct, yet we have pepole like FREDA (who'd have never ridden a horse at speed) espousing ill-informed crap on whip use.

Far more harm is caused to a horse by trainers lining up half-fit or tired horses or by racing horses out of their class than is ever caused by a soft whip.

The whip (used correctly) is an aid just as blinkers/winkers etc. are.

[curious]

19 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Whether you have a whip or not a jockey /harness driver is virtually trying to 'Scare ' the horse into going faster.

There is a LOT of noise (vocally) on the ' home bend' at any racetrack in I would say every race!, as the ' human component' tries to coerce his charge to give it all they've got .

The whip can make a lot of noise and is useful in this task as well. (You can only yell and scream so much) unless you are Damien Oliver who has endless resource of vocal energy at a great decibel too !!! lol....

The whip can be handy to wave up outside the winkers to 'Threaten' the horse and scare it to give more effort as well. Jockeys do a GREAT job with this technique.

NO JOCKEY or DRIVER wants to physically hurt a horse with the whip. They are just trying to win the race.

I would be happy to go without a Whip if so requested by Rule Changes and try it out.

BUT I can say in the 500 odd races I competed in , a whip helped 'coerce' the horse in some way in 100% of those races. Definitely would of been far fewer Placed results without it. It's very hard keeping them going after a pressure event like a horse race at those speeds.!!

I'm afraid the whole idea of "scaring" horses or any animal into performing does not sit well with me, whether you do that by noise or pain.

[curious]

2 hours ago, billy connolly said:

 FREDA (who'd have never ridden a horse at speed)

Are you serious? Shows how much you know or don't know perhaps. I am sure she was also trained in how to use a whip on racehorses.

[Gammalite]

59 minutes ago, curious said:

I'm afraid the whole idea of "scaring" horses or any animal into performing does not sit well with me, whether you do that by noise or pain.

Fight or Flight response is common . Humans or animals. Racehorses are a combo of both (we hope anyway)

[Chief Stipe]

On 4/02/2021 at 8:31 PM, Thomass said:

The research in fact found an average 3L advantage to Whip races cf non whip according to Oz Form guru Dan O'Sullivan....

How do reconcile that research with Professor McGreevy's which shows the complete opposite i.e. using whips makes the horses go slower?

Not that McGreevy's research isn't flawed and without significant bias which is understandable given a large part of his funding has come from the RSPCA.

[Thomass]

 

 

 

🥳as its 'the putting right that counts'🥳,

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Thomass