2 mg/l TCO2 over the max - $12,350 Fine and Costs - Oh well Trainers are making good profits!

[the galah]

I'm trying to keep up,but it appears your now not discounting the suggestion that this fellas horse may actually have been milkshaked?

Or are you sticking to the spoonful of feed additive he gave it each day as the cause of the inexplicable(to you) one off TC02 level.If this is still your theory then you would have to wonder how unlucky was he for it to happen on raceday?

As to the milkshaking not helping performance. How thick are all those trainers who have used it over the last few decades. Its even cost a few their careers,yet it appears you think they risked it all for no benefit.

And your still sticking with the modern day testing picking up all performance enhancers.Great that those doing the testing know the latest performance enhancers being used as soon as the very minute % of trainers that would stoop to that level do.

All's rosey and everyones honest,and only the misguided are putting their careers on the line to gain nothing anyway.

I'm with you,this RIU seems to be an unnecessary organisation.

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

I'm trying to keep up,but it appears your now not discounting the suggestion that this fellas horse may actually have been milkshaked?

Nup I would say based on the evidence and the balance of probabilities the horse was definitely not deliberately "milkshaked". 

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

Or are you sticking to the spoonful of feed additive he gave it each day as the cause of the inexplicable(to you) one off TC02 level.If this is still your theory then you would have to wonder how unlucky was he for it to happen on raceday?

On the balance of probabilities yes.  You only have to look at some of the natural levels found in horses.  Why do you think the effort was made to get the extra test results?  They were looking for a pattern that the horse had naturally high levels of TCO2.  As it was the results were all over the place - the variance in itself tells a story.  The assessed natural range is 28 to 33 mm/l.  

Do you understand what TCO2 actually measures?  It isn't measuring the amount of bicarbonate which is HCO3 it is measuring the Total Carbon Dioxide (CO2) in the bloodstream.  The theory is that the bicarb increases the level of CO2 in the blood but then there are other things that do that - like exercise!  By the way if you didn't have CO2 in your blood you would be dead.  

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

As to the milkshaking not helping performance. How thick are all those trainers who have used it over the last few decades. Its even cost a few their careers,yet it appears you think they risked it all for no benefit.

Correct.  But many Trainers aren't that bright are they?  

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

And your still sticking with the modern day testing picking up all performance enhancers.Great that those doing the testing know the latest performance enhancers being used as soon as the very minute % of trainers that would stoop to that level do.

Well that's the reality of modern testing regimes - assuming that the testing protocols in place are utilising modern technology.  The point is @the galah the testers don't need to know the exact PED that is being used before they test.  What they do need to know is to identify the anomalies against a standard control sample.  With modern chemical assays a spike anomaly would occur.  They then further isolate what caused that spike.  Hell they can find micro molecules of morphine.  Do you know how small 38mmol/l is?

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

All's rosey and everyones honest,and only the misguided are putting their careers on the line to gain nothing anyway.

Correct unless they are negligent or dumb.  Do you honestly think that with over $10m spent on Inca and a whole lot of egos and reputations on the line that they didn't test the crap out every blood sample they could find?  Mind you they are probably like you and believe that Trainers in NZ have access to the very best chemists in the world.  Why not since there is just so so much money to be won in NZ!

[Chief Stipe]

Prof.  Irvine in a 1991 paper presented to the World Trotting Conference in Auckland reported "Bicarbonate dosing has been used successfully to counteract the effects of strenuous exercise in animals and man according to papers published in scientific journals for the last 60 years..." he goes on to say "several of the older papers gave inconsistent results between horses and I wasn’t convinced of its usefulness in postponing fatigue. In most papers about 30% performed better, 50% showed no change and 20% were upset by treatment and performed worse...." and later "Some research that I have done may provide the explanation for this inconclusive result.  Firstly the amount of bicarbonate has to be sufficient to counteract the excess acid produced by exercise which is around 600 grams. The average dose of sodium bicarbonate in the British Veterinary Codex is 60 grams. In the research papers the highest dose given was 135 grams per horse. The amount of sodium bicarbonate used in milkshakes is 300 grams which is a very large quantity compared with usual medical doses. The doses of around 100 grams used in most experiments would show little elevation of blood bicarbonate and neutralises only a fraction of the 600 grams of lactic acid produced so it isn’t surprising that those experiments showed inconsistent effects on performance although there was still a marked improvement in some horses,".

In another report published in the Australian Standardbred (Nov 91) and headed "Benefits of sodium bicarbonate on racing standardbreds" it is stated "the February edition of the AEVA’s Veterinarian...describes the effect of sodium bicarbonate given just prior to racing of standardbreds. Twenty two standardbreds were paired and participated in a crossover trial when competing in two races at least a week apart. They were treated with 300mg/kg NaHco3 orally 2 1/2 hours before racing or with a placebo of salt and dextrose. The treatments were switched for the second race. Blood tests and lactate were measured before and after racing.

Results: Racing times were a mean 1.1 seconds faster in those treated with NaHC03 and blood pH was significantly elevated .Notably, post exercise lactate clearance rates were significantly enhanced in treated horses."

In a study by Lawrence (cited by Dr Phillip Swann in his book "Performance Drugs In Sport") on thoroughbreds racing one mile the results showed that milkshakes improved the performance of racehorses by 1.6 to 5.2 seconds with an average of 2.8 seconds. However, the control group of horse in the same experiment who were dosed with a placebo of sugar,salt, corn syrup and water also showed an improvement between 0.6 to 2.4 seconds an average of 1.1 seconds. It was concluded that that milkshakes elevated blood pH and tended to improve the performance of 8 of the horses but to reduce performance of 6 of the horses. Further on Dr Swann indicates that it appears that bicarbonate drenches will have minor effects on scientifically trained horses and they can effect (either beneficially or adversely) traditionally trained horses. In the same chapter Dr Swann canvasses the effect (if any) of bicarbonate on overtrained horses.

[the galah]

One thing i would agree on,and that is the focus and funding on testing  TC02 levels is out of proportion to its significance in this day and age.Testing should still be undertaken,but not on the scale it is.

Resources could be far better used. For example i have always advocated for on the ground surveillance. And that is a tool which the riu have been using to greater effect in the last couple of years.Look at the results that tactic has achieved as applies to the harness side of things. They have cleaned out a handful who were cheating,and that industry is far better for it. 

[Chief Stipe]

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

I'm with you,this RIU seems to be an unnecessary organisation.

I've never said that - strange that you would want that given your stance.

Perhaps the RIU should lift their game, take a more proactive approach to improve our testing protocols (including redefining zero), addressing issues with environmental contamination and a positive stance educating Trainers and stakeholders.

Yeah na - they prefer to hide in hedges wearing flak jackets and flying drones.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

Resources could be far better used. For example i have always advocated for on the ground surveillance.

Hiding in hedges?

I hear they have inquired about surplus military drones and sniffer dogs from Afghanistan:

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

And that is a tool which the riu have been using to greater effect in the last couple of years.Look at the results that tactic has achieved as applies to the harness side of things. They have cleaned out a handful who were cheating,and that industry is far better for it. 

So you agree INCA was a waste of time?

Aren't you exaggerating about the "handful" - weren't a couple of them done for matters outside of racing but were easy kills for the RIU who up until then were batting 0.000?

[the galah]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I've never said that - strange that you would want that given your stance.

Perhaps the RIU should lift their game, take a more proactive approach to improve our testing protocols (including redefining zero), addressing issues with environmental contamination and a positive stance educating Trainers and stakeholders.

Yeah na - they prefer to hide in hedges wearing flak jackets and flying drones.

That was sarcasm. i think you know that.. I don't agree with those who say its the lowest form of wit.

As to hiding in the bushes. If hiding in the bushes means they are catching a cheat,well they should hide in the bushes more often. You can't deny its got them some good results recently.

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

As to hiding in the bushes. If hiding in the bushes means they are catching a cheat,well they should hide in the bushes more often. You can't deny its got them some good results recently.

Hiding in hedges doesn't and didn't return positives.  Plus you can't hide in every hedge.  

Perhaps they should hire less hedge hiders and spend more on finding what is wrong with their testing protocols - it follows for example that the TWO individuals caught knew that blood testing wouldn't find anything.  Go figure!