the galah Posted October 29, 2021 Share Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) I was just reading an article unrelated to this subject,but it made me think,i wonder where they are at in that huge USA racing doping scandel.It came to prominence last year involving the use and global distribution by 31 trainers,vets and drug distributors.A handful of galloping hall of famers and several leading harness trainers, all initially denied any knowledge. Well it turns out ,despite protesting his innocence, one of the key players,trainer Jorge Navarro,has plead guilty and copped to everything and agreed to pay over $25 million in restitution. You would have to wonder whether he could pay that,but he is due for sentence in december and is expected to get a lengthy prison sentence. Edited October 29, 2021 by the galah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gospel of Judas Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 On 30/10/2021 at 10:25 AM, the galah said: I was just reading an article unrelated to this subject,but it made me think,i wonder where they are at in that huge USA racing doping scandel.It came to prominence last year involving the use and global distribution by 31 trainers,vets and drug distributors.A handful of galloping hall of famers and several leading harness trainers, all initially denied any knowledge. Well it turns out ,despite protesting his innocence, one of the key players,trainer Jorge Navarro,has plead guilty and copped to everything and agreed to pay over $25 million in restitution. You would have to wonder whether he could pay that,but he is due for sentence in december and is expected to get a lengthy prison sentence. Got wonder how going to pay that? suppose try put 1-5 million up and go bankrupt. Then go to jail and try start again. Unless cause been making plenty been stashing it in nice tax haven account. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Wandering eyes has posted some interesting articles on the news part of this website and reading them and various other coverage from the trial of the disgraceful Veterinarian at the centre of it all,it makes for some amazing reading. It seems everyone is turning on everyone . Lots of small fish given immunity but 27 or so big fish who have operated in such corrupt and despicable ways for years. An employee of the vet(with immunity)has explained that the main purpose was the supply of performance enhancing products that could not be picked up in testing.If a new test was developed and found the illegal substances,they just created another performance enhancing product that did the same thing that they couldn't test for. Products for endurance,bleeders,hormone therapy,pain suppressors...you name it,it seems they had it. You would think anyone who has read the coverage will finally admit that testing does not keep up with the latest performance enhancers. And it went on for years. Hall of famers,well known trainers and owners in thoroughbred and harness racing all in on the corruption. Some seeking out the products when they realised they couldn't keep up with those already using. Seems some of the arabs were good clients and products shipped to other countries,but the trial focus understandably on what happened in the USA. dead horses seemed of little consequence when the formula not quite right,drivers paid off to not try at tracks like yonkers...so much more just hard to take it all in. Those involved have tainted horse racing in all codes to the point where you would have to ask how could anyone reading the trial coverage not think horse racing is full of crooks? Edited January 28, 2022 by the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, the galah said: You would think anyone who has read the coverage will finally admit that testing does not keep up with the latest performance enhancers. No what it does indicate is that either the Feds are inept or these so called PED's are fictitious. From what I've read the cases are all based on witnesses saying they bought something and/or the mis/re-labelling of known substances. Indeed the convictions are not based on proof that drugs were administered but that fraud was committed. As I've said many times before modern testing techniques can identify any chemical or at least anomalies. Don't you think it is strange that with all this testimony that there hasn't been evidential testing of any of the supposed PED's that were sold? Surely there was a mislabelled container around somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: No what it does indicate is that either the Feds are inept or these so called PED's are fictitious. From what I've read the cases are all based on witnesses saying they bought something and/or the mis/re-labelling of known substances. Indeed the convictions are not based on proof that drugs were administered but that fraud was committed. As I've said many times before modern testing techniques can identify any chemical or at least anomalies. Don't you think it is strange that with all this testimony that there hasn't been evidential testing of any of the supposed PED's that were sold? Surely there was a mislabelled container around somewhere. I guess you are going to say that. This case just proves your numerous comments that "modern testing techniques can identify any chemical or at least anomalies" is wrong. The whole case is based on the manufacture and distribution of drugs that would not be detected. The first witness on the first day who gave lengthy evidence and worked for the corrupt vet explained that. And as stated earlier she said if authorities came up with a new test that could pick up the illegal substance then they just changed the formula to something that would not be picked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, the galah said: I guess you are going to say that. This case just proves your numerous comments that "modern testing techniques can identify any chemical or at least anomalies" is wrong. The whole case is based on the manufacture and distribution of drugs that would not be detected. That's not possible with today's analytical techniques especially when something that shouldn't be there would show up as an anomaly. 1 hour ago, the galah said: The whole case is based on the manufacture and distribution of drugs that would not be detected. Again that isn’t possible. Even if it was a chemical or its analog that had never been identified before. I worked on a project to determine the chemical fingerprint of manuka honey. In less than a week of testing the lab had identified a previously unknown molecule. It's chemical make-up was then determined and it was given a unique name derived from the Latin name for Manuka. They called it leptosperin. Now what you are suggesting is that not one blood test returned an abnormality nor that Feds could find a used container anywhere in all their searches. Fishman may be no more than a snake oil salesperson where part of his BS is to say his drugs are undetectable. As I said the guilty plea bargain by Navarro was for essentially being involved in fraud and the relabelling of drugs. 2 hours ago, the galah said: And as stated earlier she said if authorities came up with a new test that could pick up the illegal substance then they just changed the formula to something that would not be picked up. That's bollocks. If you change the formula how do you know that you haven't eliminated the efficacy of the key active that supposedly elicits improved performance? Even if the formula was changed the active or its metabolite would still show as an anomaly. Yes it mightn't be identifiable but it would still be an anomaly just like the leptosperin in manuka honey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Oh by the way you do realise how expensive and complicated it is to synthesise a completely new chemical? Then develop a process that is cost effective and repeatable to manufacture it. I might add without anyone knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Weirdly one of the charges that Navarro pleaded guilty to was importing mislabelled clenbuterol. That drug can be prescribed by vets to treat bronchial problems in horses. It can't be used in competition BUT it IS detectable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 The Feds confiscated these alleged PED's from Fishman (picture below). There is no way they don't know what is contained in the bottles. My guess it is mainly Clenbuterol. Fishman is staying silent. The obvious reason being that there would be some very unhappy people about when they realise Fishman was pushing well known drugs as his "special snakeoil"! Note he is charged with two counts of conspiring to violate adulteration and misbranding laws. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 15 years in prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: The Feds confiscated these alleged PED's from Fishman (picture below). There is no way they don't know what is contained in the bottles. My guess it is mainly Clenbuterol. Fishman is staying silent. The obvious reason being that there would be some very unhappy people about when they realise Fishman was pushing well known drugs as his "special snakeoil"! Note he is charged with two counts of conspiring to violate adulteration and misbranding laws. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 15 years in prison. So you seem to be suggesting that the trainers who gave evidence they sought out the vet, because of his reputation for supplying the best performance enhancers that wouldn't be picked up by testing, were duped.And so many top trainers amongst them and all so gullible. And it went on for years. And what did you make of the taped conversations(e.g. the death camp tape).Was that just bad luck,and the vet saying the formula wasn't right was just another way of keeping up the charade? And the trainers who sought out the vet supplying the performance enhancers. Are you saying they have done nothing wrong and aren't dishonest,just fools.All they did was use what they thought were performance enhancers,but weren't actually performance enhancers. Your obviously a knowledgeable man,but your choosing to ignore a mountain of evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 12 hours ago, the galah said: 22 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: The Feds confiscated these alleged PED's from Fishman (picture below). There is no way they don't know what is contained in the bottles. My guess it is mainly Clenbuterol. Fishman is staying silent. The obvious reason being that there would be some very unhappy people about when they realise Fishman was pushing well known drugs as his "special snakeoil"! Note he is charged with two counts of conspiring to violate adulteration and misbranding laws. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 15 years in prison. Expand So you seem to be suggesting that the trainers who gave evidence they sought out the vet, because of his reputation for supplying the best performance enhancers that wouldn't be picked up by testing, were duped.And so many top trainers amongst them and all so gullible. And it went on for years. Yes they were duped or they turned a blind eye. They would have not had the resources to get the substances they were being given tested. Nor would they be inclined to for obvious reasons. As long as they saw improvement in their horses why would they query what they were being given? 12 hours ago, the galah said: And what did you make of the taped conversations(e.g. the death camp tape).Was that just bad luck,and the vet saying the formula wasn't right was just another way of keeping up the charade? Yes. There was no way to prove correlation or causation between the drug horse and subsequent outcomes. 12 hours ago, the galah said: And the trainers who sought out the vet supplying the performance enhancers. Are you saying they have done nothing wrong and aren't dishonest,just fools.All they did was use what they thought were performance enhancers,but weren't actually performance enhancers. They are dishonest. They broke the rules of racing by administering intravenously non FDA (approved but mislabelled) or Racing approved substances for competition. They are also fools but it is convenient to plead ignorance and sing for the prosecution. What they were using were probably performance enhancers. What's more they are likely to have been known and prohibited performance enhancers e.g. mislabelled Clenbuterol. Now there is a whole area of debate between what is a performance enhancer and what is a therapeutic. The irony with Clenbuterol is that it is a decongestant and bronchodilator I.e. it helps horses breathe easier. One of the weaknesses of the modern equine athlete. Clenbuterol is used to treat human asthmatics. However it can also be abused by regular use and has a side effect that is analogous to a steroid in that it will stimulate increased muscle mass while reducing weight. 12 hours ago, the galah said: Your obviously a knowledgeable man,but your choosing to ignore a mountain of evidence. I'm not ignoring any evidence. I just don't believe that Fishman has developed a new and wonderful drug by himself. All he has done is mislabel and repurposed an existing drug and educated the users on how to avoid detection. Such is the history of ALL the cases of drug abuse in horse racing. "Elephant Juice" - etorphine - a narcotic derived tranquiliser. "Blue Magic" - propantheline bromide. Developed to treat bowel and stomach issues in humans. "Milkshake" - sodium bicarbonate. Used in you Grandma's scones. Neutralises the effects of lactic acid build up from exercise. As for Cobalt well the jury is well out on that one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 What I really really find annoying is the BS conspiracy shyte that spouts forth from a few that fuels the rumours. Aided and abetted by incompetent Racing Judiciaries. Why has it taken so long for the RIB to say something about the Wigg and Jones cases? It just makes things worse. It is clearly evident that one or two individuals from the Trainer or Owner ranks are feeding the rumours. You can't tell me that their motivation is honest. They've been targeting the Dunn stable for months using anything they can. Note: it isn't you @the galah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robalan Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 If the vet was supplying the trainers with mislabled clenbuterol, how was it (clenbuterol) not showing up in swabs from the horses when they won races 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Robalan said: If the vet was supplying the trainers with mislabled clenbuterol, how was it (clenbuterol) not showing up in swabs from the horses when they won races It wouldn't unless you administered less than 5 days before swabbing or took hair samples. I would imagine the shady vet was not only rebottling but diluting as well. Don't forget Navarro has already admitted to using relabelled Clenbuterol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robalan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 What improvement would there be in a horse, which has had watered down clenbuterol administered to it, more than 5 days out from a race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Robalan said: What improvement would there be in a horse, which has had watered down clenbuterol administered to it, more than 5 days out from a race Who said it was watered down? All Fishman would have to do is take one bottle and cut into five then recommend 50ml instead of 10ml. As for benefits on raceday very little BUT they've been able to train the horse harder and clear of any bronchial problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robalan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 I would imagine the shady vet was not only rebottling but diluting as well. The definition of diluted is weakened by the addition of water or other solvent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, Robalan said: I would imagine the shady vet was not only rebottling but diluting as well. The definition of diluted is weakened by the addition of water or other solvent Yes he probably did dilute it but the efficacy would only be diminished if you didn't change the volume administered. For example you put 20ml of whiskey in a glass and drink it straight you are drinking the same amount of whiskey if you put 100ml of water with it. You've just drunk more fluid. You still administered 20ml of whiskey - the active. So if you give the same amount of active in a 10mls or a 50ml injection it is still the same effect. Especially when there is over 54 litres of blood in a horse. Of course it is different if you were using a topical application e.g. an ointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robalan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 I uinderstand what you are saying Chief, but what I am saying is that if the doseage was administered 5 days out from a race, it would not show up in a swab. How then have the rules been broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Robalan said: I uinderstand what you are saying Chief, but what I am saying is that if the doseage was administered 5 days out from a race, it would not show up in a swab. How then have the rules been broken? There are strict rules around the use of drugs like Clenbuterol. So although positives were not returned other racing rules were broken as well as Federal laws. Hence Navarro being charged essentially for fraud by the FBI. The laws in the States around the mislabelling of drugs have very heavy punishments. Same with Fishman. He isn't directly charged with doping but is charged with two counts of conspiring to violate adulteration and misbranding laws. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 15 years in prison. The fact that he is being charged with misbranding indicates that the Feds know what was in the stuff that he was selling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 A drug is considered "misbranded" or "adulterated" if it does not have requisite approvals for use in an animal from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration; if it is used without a required and valid prescription; if the drug's label is false or misleading regarding the manufacturer, packer, distributor, or directions for use; or, if the facility manufacturing the drug is not FDA registered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Now one of the alleged "drugs" was called SGF-1000. It is hardly a drug by definition - more akin to a bio/nutriceutical. SGF-1000 is a product also marketed by an Australian company named Vecta Animal Health, which promotes the drug as an "innovative formulation consisting of Regenerative Placental Proteins, Cytokines (polypeptide regulators of diverse embryological origin), Peptides, potent Growth Factors and Signalling Molecules derived from Ovine Placental Extract." When this description was read to a Central Kentucky equine vet, he said he could not begin to interpret what the drug was meant to do but said it seemed apparent it was an extract of sheep placenta. MediVet also identifies its version of SGF-1000 as a "formulation of amino acids derived from ovine placental extract." In Vecta's product description, it promises that SGF-1000 contains growth factors that will: stimulate the process of sprouting new blood vessels, regenerate damaged livers so a horse is able to produce more energy, accelerate wound healing, and possesses potent anabolic effects on bone growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 SGF-1000 is at best a therapeutic certainly not a PED. About 15 years ago I was involved in a project to sell sheep placenta to China. Their theory was that the placenta cells had a regenerative property that could aid in the repair of damaged tissues. They were adamant that it worked. To the point where rich Chinese were flying to Switzerland to be injected with sheep placenta extract. In my opinion although I understand how it works in theory it still has a bit of snake oil about it. Essentially it is a solution of amino acids (peptides) and probably stem cells that may help to regenerate damaged tissue. That is improve the health of a horse. They won't make a horse run faster but allow them to run to their ability because they are free of injury. It is akin to the blood spinning method that has been used in Harness. Essentially a process of extracting the healing components of blood, concentrating them and injecting into damaged/sore tissue or tendons. Tendons are notoriously hard to heal because they don't have a direct blood supply and it takes a long time for the repair cells to reach the affected areas. In my opinion there needs to be an informed debate around this science to determine what is a PED and what is a Therapeutic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 All this talk of diluting something,or what one specific type of drug does,etc may be accurate specific to that,but it just ignores the totality of what he was doing and what type of drug was used for what. I started another thread about what is happening in new york last year and quoted what the experts employed by racing administrators in the usa had said.For example EPO . They laid out all the additional treatments and blood monitoring that went with its use,and basically said whenever authorities came up with a test to identify its use,the crooks who manufactured it just changed some small part of it and they could no longer detect it anyway. Also those leading the charge for a level playing field were extremely critical of many leading racing administrators openly saying they were corrupt and enablers.That is why they went to federal authorities for assistance,with some key players funding the investigation in secret without the knowledge of racing adminstrators,and is why they gathered the evidence the way they did.That is how they decided was the best way to expose the cheats and make them pay. And pay they certainly have and will. Its clearly ruined the careers of many of the crooks and brought about their financial ruin and the investigation also branched out into other corrupt practices totally unrelated to racing. Thats why it is so fascinating and just goes to prove what has gone on for years undetected.There is no denying it. Just follow the case and its all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 13 minutes ago, the galah said: I started another thread about what is happening in new york last year and quoted what the experts employed by racing administrators in the usa had said.For example EPO . They laid out all the additional treatments and blood monitoring that went with its use,and basically said whenever authorities came up with a test to identify its use,the crooks who manufactured it just changed some small part of it and they could no longer detect it anyway. But what you have written isn't factually or rather technically correct. I might add that from what I've read so far there has been no mention of EPO being found in any of the confiscated bottles of snakeoil. 13 minutes ago, the galah said: That is why they went to federal authorities for assistance,with some key players funding the investigation in secret without the knowledge of racing adminstrators,and is why they gathered the evidence the way they did.That is how they decided was the best way to expose the cheats and make them pay. And pay they certainly have and will. Its clearly ruined the careers of many of the crooks and brought about their financial ruin and the investigation also branched out into other corrupt practices totally unrelated to racing. Are you inferring that is what is happening in NZ? 13 minutes ago, the galah said: Thats why it is so fascinating and just goes to prove what has gone on for years undetected.There is no denying it. Just follow the case and its all there. What is more fascinating is that there is no new special "Wonder Drug" identified. What's more at any time the Racing Feds could have identified the misuse of any drug by changing their testing regime. For example it would have cost them no more than $100 to take a hair sample from anyone of Navarro's horses and proven that Clenbuterol was being used. Racing Feds in most jurisdictions have a Police like culture. Until that changes then they'll always be behind the 8 ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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