Chief Stipe

David Ellis doesn't frame the markets although I'm sure he'd like to. On the TABCORP market she is marked as doubtful.

Why would they offer more than that when they are already in the hole for a $1m? The winning prize is $7m which quickly drops to $2.9m for second. It isn't the normal stakes split.

That's a bit rich from you. The one with all the idealogical sounds bites.

I would say that they have already been offered the maximum possible which would be $7m less $700k entry fee I.e. $6.3m. From that they slot holder would probably subtract their slot purchase fee. So maybe $5.5m? Perhaps Coolmore will throw in some free services to one or more of their expensive stallions as a sweetner. I don't believe she is better than I Wish I Win. So the prize money drops off really quickly if you place. Who really cares in the future if a mare was an also ran in The Everest.

Surely that's a moot point for you as you don't believe she will win it. Feel free to post your massive lay bet. No doubt you are laying that off on the $6 quote for the Everest.

You've obviously never had the chance to see one of their contracts. David Ellis is the Racing Manager and Karyn is the Syndicate Manager.

Exactly - you appear to have an inability to see the whole picture. Has Russo apologised for instigating the ruckus? Your bias knows no bounds.

I gather you have nothing to add to anything. Sad.

But you ignored the salient points particularly in relation to your previous utterances on the subject.

$1.65 on OZ markets now. Keep laying @holy ravioli !

@Archie Butterfly as a tabloid journalist! Even that is a long stretch!

LOL LMAO No one trusts Chippy!

You're obviously reading something I didn't write! Russo was lucky to get the penalty he did from the Appeal process and he was lucky to retain his job. Have no idea how your mind works to connect it to something unrelated.

HISA Arbitrator Wipes Out 2-year Suspension for 76-year-old trainer in Isoxsuprine Contamination Case Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 2:05 pm | Back to: Shared News, Top News Updated: September 27, 2023 at 2:06 pm Coady By T. D. Thornton The West Virginia-based trainer Dennis VanMeter won a Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority (HISA) arbitration judgment Sept. 26 that wipes out a two-year negligence suspension and $25,000 fine related to an adverse analytical finding for the banned substance isoxsuprine in a shipper, Templement (Flatter), who ran sixth and last in an allowance sprint at Thistledown in Ohio on June 7. Although the final order signed by arbitrator Laura Abrahamson noted that VanMeter did not contest the isoxsuprine finding itself and that he must still bear responsibility for that violation found by HISA's Horseracing Integrity and Welfare Unit (HIWU), she also wrote that “this is an exceptional case” and that “Mr. VanMeter was not at fault and not negligent in preventing isoxsuprine from entering Templement's system.” Despite its banned substance classification, isoxsuprine is commonly prescribed therapeutically in horses to treat navicular disease or laminitis. It relaxes the smooth muscle surrounding small blood vessels, causing vasodilation and potentially increasing blood flow to hooves. The arbitrator wrote that HISA's banned classification for isoxsuprine is in opposition to the Association of Racing Commissioners International classification that had been in place prior to the HIWU oversight of the sport, which began just 16 days before Templement's positive test. The arbitrator took into account testimony that VanMeter shipped Templement into the stall of an acquaintance, John Brown, who is a Thistledown-based trainer, and that VanMeter was unaware his 6-year-old mare would be occupying the same stall that had been recently been vacated by a stable pony owned by Brown. VanMeter was also unaware that Brown had a valid prescription for isoxsuprine to use on that stable pony, Bucky. The report stated that Bucky had been taking that prescribed medication mixed with his feed “almost daily for five years.” Also, at the time Templement was shipped to Thistledown to race, VanMeter was similarly unaware that a different covered horse trained by Brown would subsequently, on June 27, trigger an adverse analytical finding for isoxsuprine. “Mr. VanMeter, who has been training horses for more than 40 years, and currently trains nine Covered Horses, acknowledged it was his responsibility to know what his Covered Horses are permitted to be given and what they are not permitted to be given,” the arbitrator wrote. “Mr. VanMeter testified that he sent Templement to his friend John Brown's stall in Barn 26 instead of to the receiving barn at Thistledown on June 7, 2023, because he had recently had open heart surgery and John Brown's stall was much closer to the paddock,” the arbitrator wrote. “At the Hearing, Mr. VanMeter testified that he did not know Mr. Brown's pony Bucky was taking isoxsuprine and did not learn that any of Mr. Brown's horses had tested positive for isoxsuprine until after June 7, 2023. Mr. VanMeter acknowledged on cross-examination that he did not ask Mr. Brown which horse's stall Templement would be occupying and did not ask Mr. Brown if any of Mr. Brown's horses were taking Isoxsuprine or any other Banned Substances,” the arbitrator wrote. On July 6, Templement's post-race sample returned adverse analytical findings for both isoxsuprine and phenylbutazone, and HISA imposed an immediately effective provisional suspension on VanMeter. On July 11, VanMeter waived his right to request testing of Templement's B Samples and accepted the penalty proposed for the phenylbutazone finding. As a result, his arbitration hearing did not address any aspect of the phenylbutazone finding or the consequences therefrom. The arbitrator's report stated that, “Mr. VanMeter is a 76-year-old Vietnam veteran classified as disabled. He has been made indigent as a result of his Provisional suspension. He could not afford the fees involved in having a Provisional hearing so he [remained] suspended with no provision for a stay under RISA rules. There is no provision for someone like Mr. VanMeter to proceed in forma pauperis under RISA rules.” The report stated that in instances in where a violation of HISA's Anti-Doping and Medication Control (ADMC) program is established, “the Respondent may be entitled to a mitigation of the applicable Consequences, only where he establishes on a balance of probabilities that he acted with either No Fault or Negligence, or No Significant Fault or Negligence.” HIWU had argued a that Mr. VanMeter “is not eligible for relief” because “he cannot establish how the isoxsuprine entered Templement's system and ” cannot establish by a balance of the probabilities that the isoxsuprine in Templement's system resulted from the horse being placed in a stall previously occupied by the pony 'Bucky' who had a prescription for isoxsuprine.” HIWU further asserted that “Mr. VanMeter has not adequately substantiated his theory of contamination and that [expert evidence] demonstrates that the likelihood of contamination causing 471 ng/mL of isoxsuprine in Templement's urine was 'remote.'” The arbitrator saw it differently. “Considering the totality of the evidence, the Arbitrator finds that Mr. VanMeter established by a balance of the probabilities that the source of the isoxsuprine in Templement's system was contamination from Bucky's stall,” the report stated. “In this case, although HIWU criticizes Mr. VanMeter' s failure to ask Mr. Brown if any of his horses were taking isoxsuprine or any Banned Substance, the Arbitrator considers that [VanMeter] did not have any reason to suspect Mr. Brown was giving any of his horses isoxsuprine.,” the report stated. “Even if he had known, [the] Arbitrator finds Mr. VanMeter would still not have had any reason to suspect that Templement could come into contact with and have ingested or absorbed isoxsuprine from contamination in Bucky's stall, which was cleaned before Templement was put into it,” the report stated. The arbitrator wrote that Templement's period of Ineligibility of 60 days, commencing on July 6, is confirmed. But since that 60-day period has already run its course, so “to be reinstated Templement need only be subject to a Negative Finding from a Re-Entry test administered by HIWU.” In fact, Templement has already been entered to run, in a Mountaineer Park allowance race on Oct. 1.

You miss several points @the galah - aside from it not being a "truly exceptional case" (there are similar examples in NZ and OZ) - the fine stood but the disqualification and loss of stakes was upheld. Which is very similar to the Tokyo Tycoon case in which many social media commentators (including @Archie Butterfly ) were baying for Trainer disqualification. Especially when the following also occurred: Trainer Dennis VanMeter – Templement tested positive for phenylbutazone in an allowance race at Thistledown on June 7, 2023 (finished sixth after clipping heels at the start). VanMeter is also provisionally suspended as Templement returned a positive test for the banned substance isoxsuprene in the same race. Interesting that John Brown whose stable it was also had a horse that returned a positive test for the same substance. Will he get his 18 month suspension dropped as well? His is a classic case of where he has been tried by social media and other media.

Hell they don't give each other any favours!!!!

VanMeter Gets $25,000 Fine, Suspension Overturned An arbitrator Sept. 26 overturned the fine and suspension handed down to trainer Dennis VanMeter by the Horseracing Integrity and Welfare Unit. The 76-year-old VanMeter was initially provisionally penalized with a two-year suspension and a $25,000 fine for negligence following the positive test for isoxsuprine in his horse Templement , after a June 7 allowance race at Thistledown. Templement's positive test resulted in VanMeter's provisional suspension July 6. According to the National Library of Medicine, Isoxsuprine "has been suggested for use in horses for treatment of navicular syndrome and laminitis." Arbitrator Laura Abrahamson in her judgment noted VanMeter did not contest the positive result, lab procedure, or the analyses of the sample taken from Templement. But said that finding the defendant at no fault or negligence is "to be reserved for the truly exceptional case," which she believed this was. The West Virgina-based VanMeter shipped Templement to Thistledown and the barn of his friend John Brown. Unbeknownst to VanMeter, Brown's stable pony Bucky had been treated with isoxsuprine mixed into his feed for five years. Brown removed Bucky from his stall in order to house Templement. VanMeter did not know of Bucky's medication, which had contaminated the stall. Days later, one of Brown's horses tested positive for the banned substance as well as Templement. In ruling in favor of VanMeter, Abrahamson noted that contrary to HIWU's contention he should have asked Brown about any potential contamination, VanMeter had no reason to suspect such a condition for his horse. Abrahamson also noted that while the Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority classifies isoxsuprine as a banned substance, the Association of Racing Commissioners International does not and the ARCI's classification was in place prior to HISA's implementation. HIWU contended that VanMeter could not "establish by a balance of probabilities that he acted with either No Fault or Negligence, or No Significant Fault or Negligence" and was not entitled to a reduced penalty. It also argued that VanMeter could not prove that Templement's positive test was a result of being in the same stall that Bucky previously occupied. But HIWU believed VanMeter was still responsible because he did not ask Brown whether any of his horses were taking a banned substance. In addition to VanMeter's fine and suspension, HIWU sought Templement's disqualification from the race in which he finished last, forfeiture and repayment of his $650 winnings, and a 60-day period of ineligibility that would be subject to a negative finding test administered by HIWU. Because the 60 days had passed and VanMeter did not contest the positive result, that portion of the penalty remained intact. Templement finished sixth in the June allowance race. She has had three works this month at Mountaineer Racetrack Casino & Resort in West Virginia.

VanMeter Gets $25,000 Fine, Suspension Overturned An arbitrator Sept. 26 overturned the fine and suspension handed down to trainer Dennis VanMeter by the Horseracing Integrity and Welfare Unit. The 76-year-old VanMeter was initially provisionally penalized with a two-year suspension and a $25,000 fine for negligence following the positive test for isoxsuprine in his horse Templement , after a June 7 allowance race at Thistledown. Templement's positive test resulted in VanMeter's provisional suspension July 6. According to the National Library of Medicine, Isoxsuprine "has been suggested for use in horses for treatment of navicular syndrome and laminitis." Arbitrator Laura Abrahamson in her judgment noted VanMeter did not contest the positive result, lab procedure, or the analyses of the sample taken from Templement. But said that finding the defendant at no fault or negligence is "to be reserved for the truly exceptional case," which she believed this was. The West Virgina-based VanMeter shipped Templement to Thistledown and the barn of his friend John Brown. Unbeknownst to VanMeter, Brown's stable pony Bucky had been treated with isoxsuprine mixed into his feed for five years. Brown removed Bucky from his stall in order to house Templement. VanMeter did not know of Bucky's medication, which had contaminated the stall. Days later, one of Brown's horses tested positive for the banned substance as well as Templement. In ruling in favor of VanMeter, Abrahamson noted that contrary to HIWU's contention he should have asked Brown about any potential contamination, VanMeter had no reason to suspect such a condition for his horse. Abrahamson also noted that while the Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority classifies isoxsuprine as a banned substance, the Association of Racing Commissioners International does not and the ARCI's classification was in place prior to HISA's implementation. HIWU contended that VanMeter could not "establish by a balance of probabilities that he acted with either No Fault or Negligence, or No Significant Fault or Negligence" and was not entitled to a reduced penalty. It also argued that VanMeter could not prove that Templement's positive test was a result of being in the same stall that Bucky previously occupied. But HIWU believed VanMeter was still responsible because he did not ask Brown whether any of his horses were taking a banned substance. In addition to VanMeter's fine and suspension, HIWU sought Templement's disqualification from the race in which he finished last, forfeiture and repayment of his $650 winnings, and a 60-day period of ineligibility that would be subject to a negative finding test administered by HIWU. Because the 60 days had passed and VanMeter did not contest the positive result, that portion of the penalty remained intact. Templement finished sixth in the June allowance race. She has had three works this month at Mountaineer Racetrack Casino & Resort in West Virginia.

No I don't think she is a good "lay bet". $1.75 at the moment is a bit short for me but I wouldn't bet against her. But that's a good multiplier price.

As for Imperatriz being in the squeeze box at 5 - don't horses have jockeys to steer straight? Did anyone mention she smashed the track record for 1000m at Moonee Valley when winning last start?

Has a good record on all tracks. Won from a Heavy 10 to a Good 3.

FFS - I'll put it another way - you find the horse that is at what you assess to be at the worst unders to lose i.e. the best priced loser which is a horse that its odds are much lower than its assessed chance. At $1.75 - yes it is a bit under. As for it being "fair value" - are you saying bookies should be fair? 4 wins and one placing from 5 2nd up starts. Many experienced pundits are saying the draw suits her - won't be stuck on the rail looking for a gap but should be one out ready to pounce. Jockey change? Are you serious? Opie has ridden her 9 times for 7 wins. Rides her in track work back in NZ. Bigger field? Hardly huge. One more than her last start!! As for Asfoora - coming back in distance second up.

Yes in know how it works - you pick the best priced loser. Now who do think will beat Imperatriz? Which one of the other 7 horses?

Hyperbole. I know about it and I'm not everybody. You speculate all the time that "there must be more to this than meets the eye". Mind you you think @Archie Butterfly is an investigative journalist based on reading its (a butterfly is an it) headlines only.