Chief Stipe

So in your opinion why is the poppy seed reason not plausible?

Why was it not plausible? I assume you are referring to the O'Sullivan Cobalt charge? I gather you are not a "poppy seed" believer either?

Where's the proof that it isn't with regard to performance enhancing drug use in the NZ Thoroughbred Racing industry?

Yeah and there are Martians walking amongst us.

Do have proof to substantiate that claim? From whom?

The facts: Vamos Bebe won the Hallmark Listed Stakes at Ellerslie on 26 December 2020. One of 6 winners trained Jamie Richards, Te Akau. All six winners were swabbed and only Vamos Bebe returned an irregularity with morphine being detected in the swab. 15 horses were swabbed that day and all runners in race 9 The Zabeel Classic Grp 1 were pre-race blood sampled. Another Te Akau runner In A Twinkling was one of those sampled. 7 Te Akau runners were tested with only Vamos Bebe returning an irregularity. Vamos Bebe is owned by Brent and Cherry Taylor from Trelawny Stud and there is no Te Akau ownership in the 4 yr old mare. As is always the case in these instances we have seen rumour, innuendo and the almost mandatory conspiracy theories eventuate. Morphine use in horses: Morphine is used in horses as an analgesic (pain relief). It is not the most effective analgesic approved for equine use. It also requires comparatively high doses to achieve an effect and not all horses react the same. There is next to zero evidence that it is a performance enhancer. Morphine is not a prohibited substance if administered by a Vet for therapeutic reasons. It isn't allowed to be present on race or trial day. (Note: does anyone have any information on permitted levels and +/- testing tolerances?) Morphine feed contamination: Although relatively rare there have been some notable instances where horse feed has been contaminated by poppy seeds and have caused a morphine positive. A horse - Estimate owned by Her Royal Highness the Queen of England and trained by Sir Michael Stoute being one such instance. Subsequent investigations found the source to be contaminated feed from a major feed supplier (Dodson and Horrell) and four other trainers had horses returning positives. Although the actual levels of morphine detected have not been published it is believed that the levels were very very small and at a level that they would not have had any therapeutic or performance enhancing effect. Such is the sensitivity of modern testing. There are some very good arguments for a review of the testing thresholds and setting a minimum level for a positive rather than a zero tolerance approach. Particularly for substances that occur naturally and those that have no performance effects. Modern testing technology is so sensitive that zero doesn't have the same definition as in the past i.e. the zero level today is a lot lower than the zero level of 20 years ago. The key point is at what level does a detected drug have either a therapeutic or performance enhancing effect? You could draw a comparison with being stopped at customs where a scan of your handbag shows traces of a class A drug. You know you haven't taken any or even purchased any yet a positive has been detected. 90% of USA paper currency has detectable levels of cocaine but you are not going to get high sniffing your wallet! We have seen the Cobalt debacle in Australia where testing and detection levels have caused considerable harm to the industry and particularly individual trainers. Also confusion from the authorities over the origin of Cobalt in the blood stream with false positives occurring because of Vitamin B12 complex - cobalt being a key part of that. The Source at Te Akau: It is my understanding that this is Te Akau's first ever irregularity/positive test and it certainly is Jamie Richard's. Their explanation is that they believe the source was hay contaminated with poppy seeds. I've done some research and an informed source has told me that the hay fed to Vamos Bebe was tested and returned a positive. The question then asked is why weren't any other horses that raced on 26 December out of the Te Akau stable that returned a positive given they were all presumable given hay in their feeds? Firstly Te Akau has 170 horses in various stages of work - probably the largest in NZ currently but not in the same league as the Ozzie leading stables which have 400 or more. The Te Akau horses are split between 4 separate barns at the track. Obviously it is standard practice to distance the colts from the fillies and mares. Vamos Bebe was in a different barn to the other 6 horses tested at Ellerslie. All staff, feed and hay were drug tested. The only positive returned was the hay from a new supplier which had only been supplied the week of the races and only in the barn that Vamos Bebe was housed. That hay has been removed and fed to Te Akau's cattle. The RIU investigation was across all this. Investigations were done to identify if there had been any potential for foul play and although nothing was found security measures have been increased as have some protocols. The RIU thoroughly checked all the treatment records and noted that they were of an exemplary standard if not the best they had perused. They noted no potential issues from the records. Te Akau Reaction: I understand that all Te Akau staff were genuinely shocked by the irregularity found in the swab. Their first in 34 years. Horses for the last 24 hours until raceday are constantly monitored and no treatment of any kind is allowed even down to no leg icing. One comment I received from an unnamed source was that the horses are "looked after to a ridiculous level.

Any speculation on what could have been injected in those horses that would have been undetectable after the race? Vitamin B?

Was six not enough for you Pitty? Any proof to the contrary?

Will be interesting to see what the tests return. Obviously confident that post race testing wouldn't pick anything up.

Now of you all really want to get your teeth into something try this:

Here we go again.... 32 min ago ALDEN WILLIAMS/STUFF Three horses trained by Jesse Alford were scratched on Thursday following an investigation into alleged doping. (File photo). Harness racing trainer caught in suspected horse doping scandal Sam Sherwood A harness racing trainer has been caught injecting a suspected performance enhancing drug into two horses, hours before they were due to take to the track. Racing Integrity Unit (RIU) investigators watched on as junior driver and trainer Jesse Alford administered a substance to the horses at his stables in Woodend Beach, North Canterbury on Thursday afternoon. They then raided his property, seizing syringes and other items of interest. Testing is under way to determine what the horses were injected with, but it is thought to be a banned substance. Three horses trained by Alford – Jimmy Cannon, Johnny Nevits and Motor Mouth – were late scratchings from races at Addington Raceway in Christchurch on Thursday evening. The young trainer is expected to face several charges related to breaches of harness racing rules, including administering a prohibited substance and attempting to administer a prohibited substance on a race day. The matter is also likely to be referred to police. Harness Racing NZ chief executive Gary Woodham said he had called a board meeting for Friday afternoon to decide whether to suspend or cancel Alford’s licence. “Clearly, [the RIU investigators] have uncovered something that we're not comfortable with,” he said. “I’d rather uncover it and deal with it than have it hidden behind the shrouds of secrecy. I have no time for people that are going to do this to animals.” It is the latest in a series of scandals to have hit the Canterbury harness racing industry, which in recent years has been plagued by allegations of race-fixing, doping and fraud. Racing Minister Grant Robertson said doping and race-fixing were “completely unacceptable” and that he was in the process of appointing an independent board for the newly-established Racing Integrity Board. “Our racing industry relies on horses being properly cared for and not subjected to doping or any other substance. “It’s also important that punters are betting on a fair race where the best riders and horses win. I have no tolerance for any attempt to distort this fairness through doping and race fixing.” Stuff understands the RIU’s covert investigation into Alford began after racing officials received information that suggested he was doping horses. Recent performances by horses he trained had raised eyebrows among some in the industry. It is understood investigators are also looking at irregular betting patterns associated with the three horses withdrawn from Thursday’s racing. Motor Mouth was initially paying $9 to win one of the races but at the time it was scratched it had fallen to $2.80, indicating large amounts of money had been bet on it. On Friday, RIU chief stipendiary steward Nick Ydgren confirmed “an investigation has been opened into the activities of trainer Jesse Alford, which were noticed at a stable inspection”. The horses were scratched under a harness racing rule “which relates to the administration or possible administration of a substance”. When approached by Stuff on Friday Alford, who has had eight wins in 39 starts since the beginning of the 2020 season, said “I wasn’t doping”. He declined to comment further about the allegations. Invercargill-based driver Archie Armour had shares in one of Alford's horses, Jimmy Cannon, for about three months but sold them earlier this year as it was not racing to expectations. Armour said the current allegations raised further questions about the industry. “I’m in it for a hobby, and it takes away the enjoyment factor.” Stablehand Scott Ramsay, who has been in the industry for six years and has brought up to 30 people into the sport through syndications, also had a share in Jimmy Cannon. With the industry struggling financially, Ramsay said the allegations blighted efforts to promote it to new fans and that he could not understand why people would try to dope horses. “If you play with fire you're going to get burnt eventually,” he said. “You’d like to think it's a nice, even level playing field out there, and it’s purely the trainer’s and the horse’s ability.” John Hawkins Mitchell Kerr with Bettor Pay Me at Makarewa in 2014. The harness racing industry has had its reputation tarnished by a number of recent scandals. In 2018, at least 12 people were arrested as part of Operation Inca, a 17-month investigation into harness race-fixing and drug offending. While some charges have since been dismissed, a number of defendants are awaiting trial. Stuff has since revealed the RIU was investigating allegations that promising harness racing trainer Mitchell Kerr over-syndicated horses and charged for non-existent insurance policies. Kerr is said to have cheated an All Black, a Black Cap and several wealthy businessmen in his scam, and is though to have lost nearly $1 million through an Australian betting agency. Kerr handed in his training and driver’s licence to Harness Racing New Zealand in November, citing “mental health” as the reason for the break. By then the now 29-year-old star had 87 wins to his credit and had won nearly $900,000 in stake money in a three-year solo training career. Stuff Nigel Raymond McGrath at the Christchurch courts in 2010 to face a race-fixing charge. It was eventually dismissed. Police are waiting for the RIU to finish its investigation before deciding whether to launch their own inquiry. In July last year, prominent Canterbury harness racing identity Nigel McGrath was disqualified from holding a training licence for eight years after attempting to dope horses. McGrath, who had trained for 20 years and had 570 wins worth $6 million in stake money for his horses’ owners, admitted three charges laid by the RIU, though he disputed the facts on two of them.

But your point is irrelevant. O'Brien tested his OWN horses after being informed that there was contaminated feed. More than one horse returned a positive. Completely different to this current case. They didn't know before the test was done that the hay was contaminated. Once the irregularity was discovered there is a predetermined process to follow. If you don't follow that process then there goes any integrity. Although unlikely it is possible that the first sample was contaminated by any number of ways hence having a B sample. I may be wrong but I think if morphine is administered by a vet for therapeutic reasons there is no withholding period. Entirely different scenario and as far as I know none of those substances are feed additives or possible feed contaminants. The "poppy seed" reason is plausible unfortunately it also has a sensational aspect to it. Hence the conspiracy theories arising. We also don't know the level of morphine found. I would expect it to be very very low otherwise the poppy seed reason wouldn't hold. A horse would have to eat a shyte load to get any pain relief. Now if the RIU or the owners want to spend some money the samples could be tested further and a chemical signature identified that would indicate the possible source.

That's what I thought. But they do something with the broadcasting which I've never been able to work out. I see Sam Wynn's horse knuckled over.....

Zilpaterol. It is a feed additive that is given to cattle to improve their weight gain performance. The feed company that O'Brien used notified equine trainers that there was the possibility of contamination. O'Brien then tested his horses and they returned positives. He decided to scratch even though it was unlikely that the horses would have returned positives by race time as it takes only three days for the additive disappear from the body. This contamination not only affected O'Brien but a number of Trainers in EU.

You can post what and when you want. But that doesn't change the fact that 75% of your posts are attacking Te Akau. If you are offended by me pointing out that fact then so be it. Only you can answer the reason why for that statistic. As for me being "woke" you couldn't be further from the truth. I've stated many times that there are things about Te Akau's dominance that I don't like and dominance isn't necessarily good for the industry. But that isn't Te Akau's fault but more their skill and professionalism that has got them to the top of the heap in New Zealand. Our sport would be a lot lot worse off without them. So an irregularity was found in testing of one of their winners. The reality is the substance found offers no performance enhancement and is legally able to be administered to a horse as a therapeutic. Big deal! These types of things happen every week in Australia. Check out this website for what happens in Queensland racing. https://qric.qld.gov.au/2021/02/?post_type=report

But why does it matter? Sample B had to be tested and an investigation completed. Both take time. The silence might be because there is nothing to report yet. If you rush these things you can end up with this: ‘Right decision’: RV drops charges against trainer Racing Victoria dropped its charges against Richard Laming. Picture: AAP Image/Vince Caligiuri Gilbert Gardiner4:08PM25 February 2021 Trainer Richard Laming says Racing Victoria made the “right decision” dropping all charges against him for the alleged race-day stomach tubing Jamaican Rain in November 2019. In a brief sitting on Thursday, Brendan Murphy, QC, acting on behalf of RV, told the Victorian Racing Tribunal his “instructions are to withdraw all charges”. No reason was given for the decision. Laming faced two charges in relation to a stable inspection in November 2019, while stable hands Marnu Potgieter and Zeyaur Rahman faced one charge each for the alleged breach. Following RV’s sensational about-face, Laming’s barrister Damian Sheales, who also represented Potgieter and Rhaman, requested all charges be dismissed rather than withdrawn. VRT chairman Judge John Bowman granted the unopposed application. “We were very confident, even before the case started, we done nothing wrong,” Laming told News Australia and Racenet on Thursday. Richard Laming is keen to move on after having charges dropped. Picture: AAP “I don’t want to talk out of school and mention anything but there was something there that wasn’t right and their barristers picked up on it and made the right decision.” The relieved 38-year-old continued. “It dragged out for a long time and it’s very good for my family and friends and loyal clients, it’s good to have it behind us now,” Laming said. “It affects your business, it affects everything, it‘s great to have it behind us to be honest. “We can get on and train horses. “My team has gone down in size, obviously, while the case was running, a lot of owners don’t want to support you while you’ve got that hanging over your head, now it’s behind us it’s great.” The snap withdrawal followed an RV-led decision on Wednesday to halt proceedings midway through the five-day hearing, with Murphy citing information that could put the tribunal in “a difficult position”. “I am making application that the matter be adjourned until tomorrow, but I will not indicate the basis of that application,” Murphy told the VRT on Wednesday. “In our professional view it would be very dangerous to ignore the circumstances and it would put the tribunal ultimately, I would have thought, in a difficult position.” Laming, allowed to train on a stay of proceedings, plans to appeal the three-month ban he received last week from the VRT for a cobalt presentation charge. “Once again, we’re very confident of the right outcome there,” Laming said. “It should’ve been a harsh fine in our opinion, and that’s probably what it should be and it wasn’t, we’ll definitely be appealing and we’re definitely confident there.” Racing Victoria declined to comment on Thursday. GELAGOTIS CLEARED ON DRENCHING COUNT The Victorian Racing Tribunal has dismissed charges against trainer Peter Gelagotis, unable to be “comfortably satisfied” he illegally administered an alkalising agent on the horse Strong Influence. Citing interviews stewards conducted from June 2019 and evidence heard by the tribunal last year, Judge John Bowman deemed Gelagotis, stable staff and the horse’s owner as “witnesses of truth”. In a pre-race blood test taken at Sandown in June 26 2019, Strong Influence, who ran third on the day, returned a reading of 37.8 millimoles per litre in plasma on a threshold of 36 millimoles. Trainer Peter Gelagotis had a win at the Victorian racing Tribunal. Picture: Getty Images In its decision, which included a lengthy summary of evidence heard, the VRT said “the cause of the high reading remains a mystery”. It also discounted “undocumented administration” within one clear day of the positive swab. “Even if that is so, the question remains, by whom?” the decision reads. “Further, can we be comfortably satisfied that the administration was by Mr Gelagotis or on his orders? Was it done with his knowledge? “In our opinion, we cannot be comfortably satisfied that the evidence supports a conclusion that any administration was done by Mr Gelagotis, on his orders or with his knowledge.” The tribunal said speculation the illegal stomach drenching was done by someone with a grudge or vendetta against Gelagotis “has led nowhere”. A penalty in relation to the lesser charge – detection of a prohibited substance – Gelagotis pleaded guilty to will be handed down at a later date.

What's your point?

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A Good 3 on race morning after supposedly more than 50mm of irrigation during the week. I'm not sure if the forecast drizzle will be a good thing or a bad thing. Race Morning Weather: Overcast Track: Good 3 Rail: Out 11m Weather and Track last updated at 6.52am Friday 25 February Thursday Afternoon Weather: Overcast Track: Dead 4 Rail: Out 11m | 22mm Irrigation Last 24 Hours Weather and Track last updated at 3.43pm Thursday 24 February Thursday Morning Weather: Overcast Track: Dead 4 Rail: Out 11m | 10mm Irrigation Last 24 Hours | 12mm Irrigation being applied this morning Weather and Track last updated at 9.02am Thursday 24 February Withdrawal Morning Weather: Fine Track: Dead 4 Rail: Out 11m | 20mm Irrigation Last 24 Hours Weather and Track last updated at 9.03am Wednesday 24 February Nomination Morning Weather: Fine Track: Good 3 Rail: Out 11m | Irrigating Weather and Track last updated at 9.22am Tuesday 23 February

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I've seen some pictures of the surface. Not good. This picture is of the actual racing surface. The rail is out ELEVEN metres.

Hardly but I reserve the right to provide some balance in the debate. They did get World Class drug testing. Do you have any evidence that they didnt? Not every jurisdiction pre-race tests and those that do don't all test all races nor even all major races.

The Topic was about the alleged positive returned by Vamos Bebe.

ONE CASE from July 2018!!! FFS