curious

Why carry it if you are not going to use it? Just get rid of the bloody things. You make my case by your last comment. More from Monty on this and I confess he has been a huge influence on my life and horsemanship but he has a way of putting these things in a nutshell. “Violence is never the answer.” Roberts took his message of violence-free horse training to the world stage in 1996 encouraged by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Already Roberts had been the leading Thoroughbred consignor at Hollywood Park Race Track for 13 years. He says that his horses respond to his non-violent approach. “A whip has no place in horsemanship at all,” argues Roberts. “It’s medieval for horses.” He also points out that a horse that wants to win, that has that competitive spirit and natural “will to win” is always going to be a far better racing prospect than the one that has to be beaten for half of the race. In 2006 Edgar Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip and never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. Prado said, “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished? I’m a horse lover more than anything else.” A student of Roberts’s concepts, Hong Kong’s leading rider and 7-time winner of the Jockeys Championship Trophy, Douglas Whyte, said “I still believe I can get more out of a horse by encouraging them rather than punishing them. My job is to win the horse’s confidence and to get them to run to their best for me.”

Taking the whip off them all together would solve the issue. One of the world's great horsemen had this to say about the matter. Excerpt from Chapter 6 of Monty’s textbook, From My Hands to Yours To do a dissertation on the whip in racing, I feel the first thing a horseman should say is, “It does not matter whether it’s racing or any other discipline, the whip is the whip.” Equus, the flight animal, is about 50 million years old. If you accept the discovery by Dr. Louis Leakey of Lucy in the Olduvai Gorge, then humans are approximately 3.2 million years old. We must conclude then that horses got along just fine without human beings for 47 million years. We are quick, however, to use the term “problem horse,” a quite pompous statement from a species so junior. A scientific fact is that horses are flight animals and, as the reader knows, they only have two goals in life (survival and reproduction). Horses do not often think strongly about reproduction during a race, which leaves us with only one facet of a horse’s existence, his goal to survive. Consider for a moment that we are human beings dealing with horses under circumstances extremely demanding and frightening to them.Knowing that they are vitally concerned with their own survival, we often conclude that the best course of action is to whip them and cause them pain in the hopes that it will get them to run faster. I submit that this is not only a bad decision from a humane standpoint, but a worse decision where its effect is concerned. Horses are “into-pain” animals. Their natural tendency is to push into pressure, like a child does biting on hard bread when cutting teeth. We may frighten a horse the first few times we whip him in a race, but very soon he may resent the whip and back-up to it, actually causing him to run more slowly. You so often hear the statement, “We need the whips for safety’s sake,” but, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth, because far more accidents are caused by whips than are ever averted by whips. In fact, if a jockey felt the need for a whip to guide the horse, why not use a spongy, Nerf whip so that no pain could be produced? In a recent conversation with Trevor Denman (a race announcer at the Santa Anita race track), he said to me that he felt it would be a good idea if every time there was a disqualification, the newspaper should read that, “the horse ducked from the whip and interfered with the progress of another horse and was thus disqualified.” Trevor suggested that an extremely high percentage of disqualifications were caused by using the whip. Further, he said that if the bettors could understand that, they would be less apt to insist that jockeys use the whips to verify that they are trying. Aside from whether it is effective or not, let us examine for a moment how we stand with the rest of the world on this issue. Nearly all the racing countries of the world are dealing with the issue of the whip in ways that suggest it will soon be obsolete. I believe Great Britain is down to five strikes now, while Sweden has restricted the use of the whip severely, and, I think, only in front of the girth. In Germany, it is interesting to note that all two-year-olds are ridden only with a soft Nerf whip, which is handed to the jockey as he leaves the weighing room. The United States is virtually the only country to fail to act on what has become an important issue to race fans the world over. The third facet, and possibly the most important, is in the area of public perception. We, in racing, need to be pro-active. We need to realize that many potential race fans abhor the use of the whip and are turned off by our sport. What if we had whipless racing? Someone would be first, someone would be last and someone would be in the middle, exactly as it is with the whips. As for finding the genetic aptitude for racing, would you not prefer the winning horse to run out of a natural desire, rather than running from pain? And, wouldn’t we be more acceptable to our audience? I believe the number of race fans would increase with a strong promotional program featuring whipless racing. As racehorse people, we often say we are giving the horse a chance to do what he loves best, run. I believe that is a true statement, but if it is what he loves best, why do we have to whip him to do it? We do not. It is my opinion that the best jockeys would still be the best jockeys, and in fact, true horsemanship skills would come to the front if we were to eliminate whipping. An Interesting Fact: Barbaro ran the last 1/4 mile of the Kentucky Derby with the fastest time over that 1/4 mile since Secretariet without ever feeling the whip of jockey Edgar Prado. Click here for more! Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip, never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. His gentle handling of Barbaro had more to do with humane rather than competitive considerations, Prado says. “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished?” he says. “I’m a horse lover more than anything else.” I sincerely believe that the buggy whips used at the starting gate cause far more trouble than good. I have spent a good deal of my life studying equine behavior at the starting gate and I am absolutely convinced that the elimination of the whip would actually make life easier for the starting-gate crews. People love animals, and we are supposed to be a civilized species. Is it not time for us to consider changing some of our retained barbaric ways? We have stopped lashing prisoners and whipping small children. Is it not time that we stopped whipping our horses, flight animals, who have no intention to hurt anyone? My goal is to leave the world a better place than I found it—for horses and people too. Racing could lead the horse industry in this truly important area of humane treatment.

What bothers me about this is that the stewards' response in both cases is that the horse must trial to the satisfaction of the stewards. Luberon did that and ticked the box without ever even being shown the whip. So, we have a horse that could easily do the same thing again in her next start in the Guineas with no evidence that the necessary re-education has taken place successfully and risking complete disruption to an important Group 1 race let alone the health and safety of other horses and riders. If that happens then the RIB must surely be held accountable?

https://www.racing.com/form/2023-10-28/the-valley/race/8#/sectionals

https://loveracing.nz/News/42941/WeighIn-DavidEllisonRoyalAscot.aspx

That can happen with google on the phone. You are liable to end up google eyed! I note the latest TRC ratings have Imperatriz rated at 120.6. In Secret at 115.6. https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/rankings/category/horse/?paginate-by=200&sort-by=rank&sort-by-order=desc Be interesting to see where the Longine's ratings have them this month.

They are here: https://racing.australianturfclub.com.au/meeting/4342

Where?

I haven't buckled. You have after saying pile it on @$4. If you knew anything about profitable punting you'd realise that I do not back or lay horses at my price assessment but at a price that allows for both margin of error and profit. As I said you are full of bs.

noun: hyperbole; plural noun: hyperboles exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally Why say it then? You are full of shit.

OK. Reverse yourself. "@$4.00...pile it like ..brylcreem". No wonder you lose. I'm not going to lay a horse I rate a $6 chance at 5.50. If I can get $9 I'll back it. But I need a margin over my assessment. I've asked you for yours but you don't seem to have one.

Struggling to quantify "a monster". I'd lay her at 4.50 just for you. How much do you want.

Well as a punter and owner, I have to try to quantify them as best I can. So, I don't agree. I am asking you to quantify your assessment. You have said you have done that by claiming that Imperatriz is poor value at $1.70 for the Champion. I make her $1.60 chance. Then you say that In Secret is great value at $4.00. I have it at $6.00. I am asking you to quantify your claim with your pricing for the race and your assessment of each of their last 2 runs. with your pricing for the race, at least for those two runners.

I don't always, but in this case I agree with Dan that Imeratriz's Manikato performance was 2-3 lengths better than that of the Everest winner. If you don't agree as it seems, what is your assessment of the two relative performances? Imperatriz may or not be the best sprinter in Australia. Not in Black Caviar league, but still very good and for the most part achieved largely untested.

What does the pattern status of the race have to do with any performance assessment? You've lost me.

New Zealand Trainers' Association (NZTA). Same if not worse. 2023 Funding from NZTR 85,760 Sponsorship 14,500 Total Revenue 100,260

I don't usually bother betting in that price range but on my assessment, I agree she is value at that price. If she does what I think she will, I imagine she'll scare even more off for the Chamions' Sprint though running for second or third behind her with even an outside chance of knocking her off may not be a bad option for some.

I think Romantic Warrior is way over bet on ability and likely to be further so with the world tote pool. That makes some of the others very good value.

Gold Trip the value for me.

I don't see anything in the conditions for the race that would prevent horses otherwise eligible for the SI race from racing in any Group race (or non-group race) anywhere at any time. Nothing I can see to stop an eligible horse going to Trentham for say the Cuddle Stakes in March and remaining eligible. I'm not sure where you are reading that or making that interpretation.

No. As I posted above, allowance to run contenders at the Wellington Cup meeting was there in the initial NZTR release. The refined conditions have actually removed that statement but I don't think they are precluded from racing wherever they want to.

Freda's best horses do daily carrot exercises

Was the Stan Fox Stakes but not sure if that was its original name or not.

Thanks Tesio. That certainly tidies up a few of the matters I raised.