Reefton

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Which personnel in the coaching team of 7 are "unproven"?

Have a look at the head coaching record of the head coach.  I do not, for all that, want to get on the bandwagon to tear the man down(he is doing a fine job of that himself from where I am sitting).   This thread was started to compare the admin and modus operandi of the two organisations not try to destroy one bloke who is having a bad time.   His only opposition at the time of appointment had won how many Super titles from how many attempts?  Can you tell me how many the successful candidate had won from how many attempts?(clue: the former's form line resembles that of Winx)  Or for that matter what the success rate of the current guy's assistants is(Plumtree has won one hasn't he?)  Not sure if any of the others have even coached a Super Rugby side let alone a title winning one..

I am even less of an expert on rugby than I am on racing so this is only opinion but in my view there are a multitude of top quality coaches in NZ and accordingly they should be on four year rotations to tie into the World Cup cycle.   Henry then his apprentice Hansen then his apprentice Foster gives coming up 18 years of a similar philosophy and in simple terms the world has caught up with and clearly gone past NZ in some cases.  In the meantime there has been a bit of a succession of talent flying away frustrated at an inability to get a look in for the top job.  You can tell by the guarded comments of the players(Savea would hardly look at the camera) and the Union itself that there are issues there.

And the comparison to NZ Racing?  Well after about ten foreigners filling the CEO's job(the question being 'Given the state of NZ racing why the hell would anyone want to come here to try to rescue it?  Unless they aren't up to the mark elsewhere that is.') they have finally appointed, without a selection process, a Kiwi.  The lucky bloke has so far impressed us with his name dropping ability but not a lot else.  And that telling us all about all the rich and famous he has worked with in the past leads once more to the question 'What the f*#k would you want with the NZTR job if you are that well connected?'

30 minutes ago, Freda said:

Agree with above comments, the lack of sportmanship and grace a sad commentary on the sort of folk we have, collectively,  become.  How often is the ref lambasted, or the hapless defeated team rubbished for being 'useless '  ?     yes, they may have not have played to the expectations of many, but they didn't go out to get beaten.

 They have done their best and deserve applause for so doing. 

  And how often is the small trainer given an accolade for winning with their pride and joy?

Inevitably, though, an indecent rush to shove the mike under the  nose of one of the highflyers...  great training feat, intones the commentator, for a 1000m win after a sort let-up. 

FFS.

Yes and in a case like yours Pam how many of the high flyers of  the NZTR or TAB boards would have thought of what you would do as second nature.  Jump out of bed at four on a freezing winters morning, sort the rest of the team out then get in a float with a hopeful to run in knee deep mud on an industry midweek day. 150 people in attendance.   Get home long after dark then attend to the rest of the team again, stagger home and slump into bed disappointed (again!).  Wake up next morning and go again.

The sort of thing that makes this game of ours and is totally forgotten about when the fat cats sit down at an NZTR Board Meeting.

Of in a rugby scenario how many think of the women who spent years making food for the after match or who spend hours scrubbing filthy grass and mud stained jerseys so the team looks sharp as next Saturday.  

The forget where the hard work is really done

A I just hear that NZ rugby allowed the AB's to not turn up to an arranged and standard after test press conference this morning.   How arrogant is that but how similar to the attitude of those running NZ racing?    Make a fool of the game then refuse to answer questions and explain yourself 

47 minutes ago, nomates said:

I was at the game last night and i have to say the AB's played the worst half of football i can recall , as much down to the Irish intensity in defence , but the handling and lack of cohesion was poor , i could feel it in the crowd , a lot of anxious fans 20 mins in . 

The poor sportsmanship was what amazed me the most , the booing at conversions and penalties says it all to me , it shows that the fans realised that the team was in trouble and were trying to ensure they didn't have more points to chase . It used to be an unwritten rule in rugby , show good sportmanship and allow the kick to be taken in silence . 

But this all goes back to the corporate takeover of sport , we have seen it in racing , and now rugby is feeling it , people who have no vested interest in the sport other than making it profitable , getting positions of power and a say in what happens , how many AB fans honestly thought that Foster should have got the job ahead of Robertson , how much of it was a corporate decision ahead of a rugby decision .

Look at the Silver Lakes crap , NZRFU were prepared to sell their soul but many of the provinces were worried about it , but suddenly up the amount of booty to each province and suddenly they are all on board , go figure . How much of that will truly get to club land .

AB fans should get used to this , the AB's not being the absolute unspoken champions of the world , money is lower the sporting ambition and elevating making money to the most important factor .

Unfortunately for racing , whilst they have also lowered the standard of our " product " they also can't make money .

Other than that a great night was had and the best "team " won , so funny to be watching AB fans leaving before the final whistle , a real supporter stays and gives them a clap for trying for them , even if poorly , but this is now the world we live in .

Well my irish mates would like it recorded they had a great night!

6 hours ago, Ludwig said:

I read today that Dame Patsy Reddy has just been appointed to the Nz rugby union board. Fine person, and all that, but  what connection does she have with a local club.

Just another corporate appointment with no connection to the grass roots. Just the same as racing.

An example of exactly the point I am making.

And then these appointees make selections of unproven personnel then commit the organisation to long term contracts or pathways to destruction.  NZRU will see the writing on the wall and are no doubt going to have to sack someone and pay out a huge contract - NZTR would just grin and bear it.

And the tragedy is in each case there are some super talented super enthusiastic and super concerned people who's views and initiative are totally ignored or belittled.

Tragic

Anyone else seeing a comparison here?  

Embrace a corporate culture and take away control from the grass roots.  Followed by massive disillusionment among the aforementioned grass roots

Look after the elite to an embarassing extent (I know you have to pay the AB's well)

Dwindling domestic attendance even though (in Rugby's case) the product is world class.

Stagnation or retreat at intenational level

And a lack of imagination to right the wrongs.

And blokes just looking to embellish their CV's by being on 'The Board'

If they win this it will be more by good luck than good management

56 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I think it's the arrogance that gets me. How hard would it be for someone to come on here and comment occasionally. It doesn't have to be the big boss, just someone with some basic knowledge would do. I'm sure there is a simple answer to many of our concerns. George fronts the media all the time trying to explain away the warriors lastest cock up, but he doesn't seem to think there is any need for NZTR to interact, other than the occasional PR piece.

If you were them why would you come on a place like this?  Realistically all that is going to happen is a good solid bollocking if they showed their face and tried to justify themselves.

No better to communicate with their puppet masters and eff the proles!

3 hours ago, Huey said:

This is absolutely great they do this , but they have to start getting off their butts and being more proactive. Where are the replacement meetings going to be held? It's absolutely essential that $$s are flowing through the industry somehow, Hawera called off twice now, Woodville and many others also.

They are simply too unflexible and have thus dug themselves into a hole with the track situation,  largely caused by the incompetence of BS and his Venue plan with a touch of the M report to really ram it home.

Surely the new CEO has enough sense and is brave enough to open the industry up again and properly utilize all its assets?

It's not good enough to continually blame the weather or tell the industry Trentham remains open , there surely needs to be a plan for this? How do we have a CEO & COO and hear or see absolutely no progress or backup plans for the industry? It's becoming beyond a clown show.

3 hours ago, curious said:

Exactly. Why has the meeting not been transferred to another track?

Because at this time of year they are almost certainly losing money on meetings so why would they want replacements?  No shit no keep the money in the bank for more pies.

They don't care how many meetings get abandoned especially when they are the country venues.  If they can destroy the meagre remaining enthusiasm in the likes of the Hawera and Woodville committees they will be able to seize their assets all the sooner and be able to hand them over to Race and its ilk to piss up against the wall.  And as for the owners/trainers/connections waiting for opportunities - well they have been given shiite treatment for the last twenty plus years so why consider them?

To be fair though what are the options for replacement fixtures with the standard of weather we have been having in this country in the last few weeks?  Pretty tough to find a reasonably dry venue in the lower NI I would have thought? The days of ploughing through knee deep mud, piss poor jockey visibility and/or copping surface water in Jockey's faces are long gone and I wouldn't be holding my breath for Trentham to run if this keeps up.

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Tellyawhat, why not transfer the Woodville/Trentham meeting to Riccarton? and do it now? give them a taste of what real racing is all about, subsidise the horses, throw in some real accommodation for owners trainers, bring along the CD riders that can sit on.....Parks and Allpress, Destination Canterbury could stump up, make it an expo, fancy dress on Fri night, Cantabs come as you are.......huge Calcutta and huge discounted liquor.......savoury saveloys and party pies and then everyone back to Pam's place for poker and blackjack, and those that can't make it back to their subsidised accommodation can crash on Pams sofa, floor, feed room.......but no pissing on the stable bedding, or any bedding for that matter, now if this doesn't make sense you're all arseholes with no view to the future, cos this is how we did it in the past, eh Nomates? and loved every bit of it.....ye haaaaa

there is a little piece of water inbetween that might make an unpleasant interlude for both the neddies and the connections given the weather at the moment

Unless they get Sheik Mohamed's Jumbo Jet horse carrier out for a couple of days and fly them down

9 minutes ago, Doomed said:

What is the chute you refer to? I always think of the chute as the 1,200m start. Was there another one as well? Sadly most of the surrounds at Riccarton are now housing. At least that explains why the club is now able to boost all of their stakes for low key meetings: I assume that will happen soon as the money comes in for all of the housing.

It ran all the way along Yaldhurst Road to the 1200m mark then ran along the outer edge of the track back to the trackwork stalls.  A cinder track that got a lot of use for horses trotting or walking.  Gone now of course with the housing development.

I doubt the CJC boosts much in the way of stakes.  Whatever type of meeting you run the stake are pretty well covered by the money ex NZTR

5 hours ago, Freda said:

Yes, man management in those operations has to be good, and his must be outstanding.    Delegation is a skill in itself, not always recognised.  He has been so successful for so long, it is no accident.

The 'mental health' aspect referred to by Turny I found interesting however...do not many trainers do similar, given the limitations/advantages of their location?

I know many who will allow their horses paddock time - a weekend away from the stable routine, or similar - post-race, and where farms or agistment facilities are reasonably close, send their horses for a break, regularly.   One comment attributed to K Myers, after a racemeeting and long drive home, was  ' salad tonight, fellas ' and into one of his many good paddocks they went, to stay on good pasture for as long as the boss deemed suitable.

Chris Waller, as a Kiwi from a fairly rural area, would be only too aware of the value of such management - but certainly isn't the only one to be so.    

I guess part of his success story means he is able to access paddocks for the horses - a battling operator may not be so lucky(either through not having the contacts or not being able to afford it).  And you wonder if all the horses get that treatment or just the Nature Strips and Winx's of the world.  It would certainly be a circus of floats going here and there if every horse in the stable got a trip to the paddock for a day or two after a race.

The mental aspect of it though Pam (in a different way) - in the old days a walk around the chute at Riccarton(long gone I know), maybe swimming and/or a trip to the beach and also we regularly hear of schooling sessions switching them on when they appear to have lost enthusiasm.  I remember my days forty years ago with one Maurice Carl Thornley - he was always thinking of ways to get one mentally revitalised.  Even the straight out sprinter Hi Roona used to jump the odd pony hurdle to make life interesting and he also used to take horses to a swimming pool(McLaughlins at Pound Road?) long before one was installed at Riccarton.  

Snow Lupton rounding up cattle with Kiwi(my Uncle used to regularly use his handy horse Cappiemore for the same thing - didn't do much for the cattle's mental health but the horse enjoyed a wander though the trees and forest and a chase after some mad cow trying to escape the roundup!) 

3 hours ago, Turny said:

Interesting Reefton, one of the things I continually read on Aussie websites is how Waller is unparalleled in placing horses, they continue to say this is his greatest asset, closely followed by regular resting away from the stables (mental health aspect). Surely can train that's for sure but has broken away from the mold and is different in animal management aspects

I find it all very interesting

Whatever that man's supreme talent(s) is or are the major one must be management.   Astonishingly good systems in place.  To deal with that many horses it must be absolutely regimented and he must have some superb Lieutenants. 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes, it is made up of "more than Te Akau and its million-dollar purchases".  Arguably the likes of TA and Chris Waller are no less passionate about racing horses than any other horse trainer.

However, the issue is that there HASN'T been a focus on the commercial considerations of the industry/business of racing horses.  Sucking owners dry of their cash with the promise of the "excitement of racing and winning" has always been unsustainable when the returns from winning are so poor.  

Really to be fair even if owners were treated like royalty by the powers that be the overall racing concept is going to suck them dry financially in the end.  There is an average of say nine horses per race and only one winner so a lot more disappointment than triumph.

And yes I am sure Waller and TA are passionate but they operate in a different way.  Both are businesses structured(and very very well too) to operate at the top end of the racing market.  That is enticing rich people to invest in horses and try their luck.  No issue with that but as I have said before I wouldn't mind knowing the owner turnover statistics for them - ie there are vastly more duds than there are Nature Strips or Melody Belles and neither are cheap to deal with.  The latter is the owners call but, unless there is half a leg of a Winx involved, then I think people would get the stitch quite quickly(been there done that with TA although I was aware of what I was getting myself into and did not expect it to be cheap - and it wasn't).

For all that running the operations they do and attaining the success they do one has to greatly admire both TA and especially Chris Waller.  He went from a battling NZ operator to heights unscaled in Aussie and probably world racing and deserves all the accolades he gets

4 hours ago, Freda said:

 I think Andre Klein may have been the glue that tied it all together.   For now,  Jo Gordon does a great job for several clubs behind the scenes - as if she isn't busy enough.

I was going to say how Jo Gordon fills that role for all those clubs on top of all her other commitments.  Probably rides all her own trackwork as well given the staff shortages.  And she is not the only female trainer down there stretching herself like a shanghai with more than one job and a ton of horses to look after.

You would have to absolutely love horses to do it and that is what NZTR's idiots simply do not appreciate.  So many of those guys are holding on by a thread (enthusiasm wise) and it that thread snaps.....

I know you too wonder why you bother sometimes Pam and yours is yet another example.  This game is made up of a lot more than TA and its million dollar purchases(not that I am knocking anyone brave enough to go buying and marketing those sorts of animals but there is a lot more to this game than purely commercial considerations)

5 hours ago, Doomed said:

I know nothing about the people involved, but from everything I read on here RACE seems to be a disaster and disfunctional. If Levin has been asked to join you can almost guess what their answer might be.

The indications to date are that these ad hoc regional groupings as a way of supposedly efficiently running various race clubs don't seem to work. They often involve dominant clubs wanting to close down or take advantage in some fashion of the smaller clubs. Often as a means of disguising the poor performance of those dominant clubs.

The Otago Southland example I think was reasonably successful. Does it still exist?

Ain't that all the truth!

Otago Southland yes and no.  Gallop South exists as a common Secretary/CEO group with the majority of the Otago and Southland Clubs but the Otago Racing Club works on its own.

No idea what happened but it has been like that for several years

2 hours ago, Doomed said:

It has always been risky being beholden to an A&P association. I think the Waikato trots had similar troubles at Claudelands many years ago.

yes and somewhere down the track when the current A&P committee are all gone and the new mob forget that they only have the asset because the racing clubs gave it to them.......

Decide to be a pain in the arse and demand a huge rental for the use or, if the lease is not watertight, try to worm their way out of it.

Turning it over to another Incorporated Society over which you have no control would not be my preference but good luck to them(NHRC) anyway.  I would love to see a pissed off and frustrated Racing Admin body unable to get their sticky fingers onto someone else's asset.

2 hours ago, Doomed said:

All the evidence is that the AWTs have been a disaster, especially in the SI where they weren't needed in the first place. Wingatui managed to race on Sunday with a pretty reasonable track, only just heavy, soft in the old terminology. Oamaru last week on a firm track. They struggled to get six races on the AWT. 

And in the SI they have done everything in their power to force trainers to race on the AWT. It seems to be that horses racing during the winter months actually want the sting out of the track. Who would have thought that.

The worst thing though has been the total lack of feedback and interaction from NZTR. They have never revealed turnovers and how they relate to budgets, they have never commented on whether the actual field sizes and numbers are pretty much what they expected. Overall their secret service approach has been very disappointing. They would probably fit in well in Putin's regime.

they do not liaise with the common people.  Those in the clic will be well aware.  After all even when they have their meetings with the clubs there are the less than three day clubs and the more than three day clubs.  Needless to say I never waste my time but you can bet the info to the more than three days is a lot more than the less than three days

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Fairly good noms for Ashburton, better stakes too, re Oamaru.

yes a bit odd to have a feature day (stakes wise) on a Thursday

16 minutes ago, Michael said:

And they don't have a perpetual lease Reefrton

Well if they don't have a perpetual lease how do they know that the A&P won't one day say 'sorry we are kicking you guys out'?  Because if it is not perpetual it is fixed term and fixed term leases run out(just like a commercial lease).

And if I was a member of the club and suddenly found out it had been evicted from the course I think I would be looking a bit sideways at the Committee who sold it for a dollar to the A&P. 

Read the Gary Vile thread - getting booted out summarily is a hazard of being a leasee

2 hours ago, Freda said:

Yes, notwithstanding the 'Deed of Gift'  and the associated contingincies wrt Riccarton, a portion of that land was released without too much difficulty. It wouldn't have been outside the bounds of possibility to do the same to the rest.

 

the right to lease or occupy a piece of ground in perpetuity(ie forever) is most definitely an incredibly valuable asset for a Racing Club especially where that piece of ground is extremely valuable.  Which (from the sounds of things) is how the New Plymouth thing got cocked up - the council apparently claiming the right was granted to the NP Jockey Club(???) then that organisation changing to Racing Taranaki.  Changing the entity is pretty dangerous in those scenarios(as would be losing your incorporated society status).

And if you were a committee member who let it go on purpose I would not be surprised to see an HRNZ or NZTR action launched for not working towards the stated aims of the organisation

I am starting to sound like a sympathiser for those wankers but remember this is potentially a lot of money for the industry and they aren't afraid to lawyer up(NZTR being known to contract Bell Gully on occasion).

And interestingly enough I see the NHRC also lost its incorporated societies status in 2019

3 hours ago, Michael said:

Not much point in chasing Nelson Reefton

The A&P Association own it and the Trotting Club pay a very high lease figure

Well you might not think so(on the face of it)

Timaru and Riccarton are in the same boat.  They don't own their land only lease it but ......

The NHRC might be paying a high rent but as perpetual leasee(which I assume they are) they have a massive asset to sell (as do Riccarton and Timaru)

Imagine what the Richmond track would be worth in Nelson's bouyant real estate market.  Timaru's the same though not as much.  Remember Riccarton didn't own their land but negotiated a fortune for relinquishing only a portion of it

The A&P Association could retain a chunk for their own purposes and sell off the balance.  You might think that won't happen but if HRNZ were to declare Nelson surplus to requirements they can seize their assets and  the right to access a block like that in perpetuity would be worth a fortune.  Remember HRNZ are then in the drivers seat in terms of negotiating with the Club and I don't even think the club could relinquish their lease beforehand because the Act will(I imagine) cover 'land or an interest in land'(which a lease is)

I see from its financial statements that the Club is a 50% partner in a 'Richmond Park Camp Partnership' with the A& P Society which got its  50% share in 2019 ex the now defunct Nelson Jockey Club for $1.  Presumably NHRC did the same thing(sold their 50% for $1 to this Richmond Park outfit).  I am sure the boys got good legal advice but with an asset of that value I am equally sure HRNZ and/or NZTR would be quite happy to go to court to test it.  There is also not a lot of lease being paid according to the 2020 financial statements.

I hope I am wrong but I am a little dubious of all these arrangements clubs entered into prior to the Act coming into force.  The only one which I can see as being watertight was the straightout giveaway Westland entered into BUT if Hokitika was a decent sized city I would not have trusted NZTR not to challenge that as well.  That Nelson real estate has to be worth tens of millions if not a hundred million and it would be well worth a test in court if it came to that.

When you are a true country club like ours or Westland the property is worth bugger all(maybe $300,000 in our case and that would be split two ways) so hardly worth grabbing but when there is a fortune at stake..........

It could well be interesting

13 hours ago, Doomed said:

We have gone beyond expecting. I might seem harsh on NZTR at times, but every indication is that they are incompetent. The only other option is that they are totally in the pocket of certain factions and are eliminating about 70% of the industry to fund the remaining 30%.

I don't really subscribe to conspiracy theories though, and you do have to be quite clever to pull off something like that. Every indication is that they aren't that clever, although having said that they are being allowed to do what ever they like because there is virtually no opposition.

If NZTR was an incompetent city council (like Tauranga) or a DHB or school board the Govt would sack them and call in a commissioner to run the show, but because the industry as a whole has just laid back and waited to be shafted this is unlikely to happen.

Winston getting that clause in the Racing Act (and the effing Nats not screaming blue murder about it) means they don't have to be that clever.

If however the NZTR people were clever they would see the opportunity it now creates to cash up multiple high value and low returning assets of the industry and ultimately removing all the country clubs via them not being able to compete stakes wise.

Lets not hold our breath for them to see it though

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Does the South Island need two covered stadiums ? Can it be justified ? Should the government fund it, Dunedin funded their own. Just use Forsyth more, Christchurch has the racetrack, Dunedin has the AW rugby ground, that seems fair.

problem with Christchurch it wants the deluxe model covered stadium.  The drawings show it is round and how much extra cost is there in having rounded corners instead of squared up.  Price something similar to Dunedin's maybe with 5000 or so more seats(10000 more should be easy if you extend the ends a bit. They are living beyond their means and they already have outfits like that Horncastle arena or whatever it is called at Addington for a lot of events.

2 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Doomed, if they were too or  wanted to close one of Oamaru or Timaru, what would you do, a poster on here  running down the Oamaru Jockey club named Ludwig reckoned Oamarus future is harness racing only but if only one track was retained what are your thoughts.

Make no error HRNZ will smell blood when they close Geraldine, Rangiora  and Timaru and they will want to Oamaru next(and probably Blenheim and Nelson as well though Blenheim may be an issue is GoJ is correct).  And if HRNZ smell blood they will need NZTR's cooperation for the South Canterbury venues.  That won't be hard to get!   NZTR will love someone else leading the charge so they can say 'its not our idea'

One good thing about having a property in a tiny town like Reefton - if it sells they will get eff all for it so not the incentive to cash it up. 

On 24/06/2022 at 4:51 PM, Ludwig said:

Well, Andrew Little is in charge of the health system, so it's obviously in good hands😀

He was in charge of the Union that the Pike workers belonged to.  He did a great job there.  Never sighted until the TV cameras were infesting the place when he became akin to a bad smell - wouldn't go away.

St John are under immense pressure and the bottom line with an ambulance is if they(the patient) are not having breathing difficulty and they have a pulse then they wait their turn.  And that is especially so if there is a qualified first aider or Paramedic on hand.