jeff gural(meadowlands) on cheats

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Forbury said:

I believe that this is what happened with Grimson he was approached by a scientist chemistry vet etc who has the real deal goods story over.

BS @Forbury !!  You're worse than @the galah on this subject.  You can't make EPO analogues or restructured peptides or any novel complex chemicals in a home lab.

If there is anything circulating it is something that is already manufactured in large quantities, is well documented and described and testable.  The USA case was exactly that where they were mixed and relabelled mass produced drugs.  Nothing novel or uniquely made by some genius scientist in a hidden lab somewhere.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

BS @Forbury !!  You're worse than @the galah on this subject.  You can't make EPO analogues or restructured peptides or any novel complex chemicals in a home lab.

If there is anything circulating it is something that is already manufactured in large quantities, is well documented and described and testable.  The USA case was exactly that where they were mixed and relabelled mass produced drugs.  Nothing novel or uniquely made by some genius scientist in a hidden lab somewhere.

If you reference me in your reply,then i will point out you are saying forbury has said someting, that he never did.. Hes never said you can make anything in a home lab. I'm not sure why you say he said that.Its possible i suppose,but forbury never said that anyway.

All you have to do for an example of what he has said is look at the blue magic cases here. Trainers can be approached by importers of performance enhancers,like robert asquith or they can ne approached by owners or they can seek them out themselves. Its just obvious. Of course the internet has many products for sale claiming to enhance perfromance that aren't testable. Hell i just googled what your mate archie butterfly had written about one such product,and got several relevant responses on the internet.Of course getting them over the internet isn't the best or preferred way to getting them.History shows that as well.

Edited November 20, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

If you reference me in your reply,then i will point out you are saying forbury has said someting, that he never did.. Hes never said you can make anything in a home lab. I'm not sure why you say he said that.Its possible i suppose,but forbury never said that anyway.

What @Forbury said was this:

3 hours ago, Forbury said:

I believe that this is what happened with Grimson he was approached by a scientist chemistry vet etc who has the real deal goods story over.

The inference being that someone had developed something outside of a commercial lab or manufacturing plant.  That inference is BS because it is implausible.  

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

All you have to do for an example of what he has said is look at the blue magic cases here.

Blue Magic was an existing chemical called propantheline bromide - which had been around since the 1970's or earlier.  There were tests for it in 1979! The chemical formula is:

 

It isn't something you can cook up in the home lab.  It was discovered many many years prior to the Blue Magic scandal and was on the list of prescribed medicines for use for humans and animals.  In animals it acts as muscle relaxant and aids digestion issues.  Which interesting in itself as digestive issues are one of the biggest issues with racing horses and feeding them high energy foods.  We all know how we feel when we get indigestion or a guts ache - imagine what it's like for a highly trained horse?

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

Of course the internet has many products for sale claiming to enhance perfromance that aren't testable. Hell i just googled what your mate archie butterfly had written about one such product,and got several relevant responses on the internet.Of course getting them over the internet isn't the best or preferred way to getting them.History shows that as well.

Yes but that's where you and that bottom feeder excuse for a journalist @Archie Butterfly get it wrong.  Firstly the drugs are mass produced and testable - often relabelled for sale by snakeoil salesman to the gullible looking for an edge.  Then there are the gullible that believe the stories.  Don't forget Fishman was done for fraud - that is mislabelling drugs and profiting from it.

[Gammalite]

C'mon Chief . you don't need a 'home lab' to tinker with... let's call it 'nutrition' for your horse with the supplements, additives and on occasion PED that are added to it.

Forb's said this >>>>" I believe that this is what happened with Grimson he was approached by a scientist chemistry vet etc who has the real deal goods story over."  

sounds reasonably possible. 

Nearly All the galloping Trainers have science chemistry experts assisting. Chris Waller has special feed mixes. remember he had a 'contaminated batch recently' with steroids and 3 Positive swabs resulted . He was fined $30,000 and Not Disqualified like anyone else would of been, because he's Superman. They made the Feed Company take the wrap lol.... I find it interesting that a feed company has Steroids as part of their mix , or on the premises at all . must be the chemist lol... What cocktail you put in your syringe is even easier to do. 

Hey a bit like any human can tinker with 'health and performance ' for themselves , you tinker with the supplements you use daily. To run better. and you don't need a 'lab' to do that. Just a good scientist/chemist /doctor that gives you the latest goods/technology (and masking agent too is important these days) 

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

C'mon Chief . you don't need a 'home lab' to tinker with... let's call it 'nutrition' for your horse with the supplements, additives and on occasion PED that are added to it.

Forb's said this >>>>" I believe that this is what happened with Grimson he was approached by a scientist chemistry vet etc who has the real deal goods story over."  

sounds reasonably possible. 

The point is that if that is the case as you describe then the mystery elixir is nothing new - i.e. it is a mass-produced drug in wide use.  Just like "Blue Magic" is.  Of course it got a sensational sounding name but was just a drug used to treat stomach and digestive tract illness.

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Nearly All the galloping Trainers have science chemistry experts assisting. Chris Waller has special feed mixes. remember he had a 'contaminated batch recently' with steroids and 3 Positive swabs resulted . He was fined $30,000 and Not Disqualified like anyone else would of been, because he's Superman. They made the Feed Company take the wrap lol.... I find it interesting that a feed company has Steroids as part of their mix , or on the premises at all . must be the chemist lol... What cocktail you put in your syringe is even easier to do. 

...and just as easier to test for.

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Hey a bit like any human can tinker with 'health and performance ' for themselves , you tinker with the supplements you use daily. To run better. and you don't need a 'lab' to do that. Just a good scientist/chemist /doctor that gives you the latest goods/technology (and masking agent too is important these days) 

I don't disagree which is what I proffered as the most likely scenario with Grimson.  He like all the top thoroughbred trainers would have done a thorough blood analysis on Swayzee and now Cya Art and adjusted feed and supplements accordingly.  It's not illegal but if done properly can produce amazing results.  And NO not all trainers know how to do it and those that don't but are successful hire specialist nutritionists to help.  That's why it costs to race a horse in those stables.

[the galah]

I can give you a couple of historical examples which illustrate chief that you don't fully understand how the average trainer actually views this subject.

Your out of touch if you seriously think people have faith that testing is working.

Anyway the examples i have relate to trainers who once trained  horses for us.

we used 3 trainers over about a decade.

the first once said to me,well if you knew others were using things to enhance performance and that testing wasn't picking that up,and you knew that to make a living and to have a chance against certain trainers in the bigger races,would you look to gain the same edge?

the second trainer was so convinced that certain trainers were using some type of performance enhancers that he decided his best course of action was to pay someone to come up with his own cocktail. He said to me one time,its what you have to do to if you want to be successful and earn a living. His attempts to come up with his own mix cost him a bit of money but he eventually abandoned the project as he felt uncomfortable with where it may lead to get real results.

The third told me almost exactly the same story. He had become convinced that some were using something that wasn't being picked up in testing,so he had a chemist who was an owner work on coming up with a concotion to increase perfromance. Well this fellas chemist actually did and they used it just the once and the horse won,in fact the story went that it worked so well that the driver couldn't pull the horse up after the finish and had to run it into a fence some distance after the finish to get it to stop.But then blue magic hit the headlines and the trainers chemist got spooked and pulled the pin.

Now all the examples i use were prior to blue magic but around that time.

Everyone of those trainers very good trainers,one as good as anyone,and all very honest people.

So the reason i think as i do is because i see the harm that is caused by the use of undected performance enahncers. It influences the thinking of honest hard working people.

And the reality is the stuff they use today is more effective than what was used 20 years ago.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

I can give you a couple of historical examples which illustrate chief that you don't fully understand how the average trainer actually views this subject.

Your out of touch if you seriously think people have faith that testing is working.

Anyway the examples i have relate to trainers who once trained  horses for us.

we used 3 trainers over about a decade.

the first once said to me,well if you knew others were using things to enhance performance and that testing wasn't picking that up,and you knew that to make a living and to have a chance against certain trainers in the bigger races,would you look to gain the same edge?

the second trainer was so convinced that certain trainers were using some type of performance enhancers that he decided his best course of action was to pay someone to come up with his own cocktail. He said to me one time,its what you have to do to if you want to be successful and earn a living. His attempts to come up with his own mix cost him a bit of money but he eventually abandoned the project as he felt uncomfortable with where it may lead to get real results.

The third told me almost exactly the same story. He had become convinced that some were using something that wasn't being picked up in testing,so he had a chemist who was an owner work on coming up with a concotion to increase perfromance. Well this fellas chemist actually did and they used it just the once and the horse won,in fact the story went that it worked so well that the driver couldn't pull the horse up after the finish and had to run it into a fence some distance after the finish to get it to stop.But then blue magic hit the headlines and the trainers chemist got spooked and pulled the pin.

Now all the examples i use were prior to blue magic but around that time.

Everyone of those trainers very good trainers,one as good as anyone,and all very honest people.

So the reason i think as i do is because i see the harm that is caused by the use of undected performance enahncers. It influences the thinking of honest hard working people.

And the reality is the stuff they use today is more effective than what was used 20 years ago.

 

Also i would say if the RIU have to hide out in some neighbours hedge to keep people honest ,then i am sure most will understand why they do that and while it seems many may chose not to say that in certain company,i'm pretty sure i know what many say and are thinking.

Besides if you happen to be a target and are doing nothing wrong,why worry about stuff like that,given  you know it helps keep people honest in the industry you participate in.

Edited November 21, 2023 by the galah

[Forbury]

Hi chief up most respct you do a fine job and I know nothing in doping just horses abilities and what I learned when I was in the know as a teenager.there has been only one group that has improved horses like Grimson and that is the Gleeson's .Chris glesson only had to get to the death race over they just keeped on trucking.he improved them laps.if they tested horse before or after the race they find nothing.its when the blood was flowing the doping worked.thats how it worked.andrew peace was another one that did the same.that was over 30 years ago and I bet the drugs are better now obviously.there is to much evidence to say that cheats prosper and that it's to difficult to detect.just look at Lance Armstrong and what about flo jo grithith USA female athlete that no one will get close to her time in the 100.she was a drug cheat.im just voicing my thoughts and like I said I know nothing.you insight research facts is good as every debate needs opinions right or wrong.its not defamation as this is just that opinions.all the best 🤩

[Chief Stipe]

32 minutes ago, the galah said:

I can give you a couple of historical examples which illustrate chief that you don't fully understand how the average trainer actually views this subject.

The "average" trainer.  Why invest with an average trainer?

32 minutes ago, the galah said:

we used 3 trainers over about a decade.

the first once said to me,well if you knew others were using things to enhance performance and that testing wasn't picking that up,and you knew that to make a living and to have a chance against certain trainers in the bigger races,would you look to gain the same edge?

How did trainer 1 know that "others were using"?  When was this decade so I have some context to understand what I allegedly "don't fully understand"?

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

the second trainer was so convinced that certain trainers were using some type of performance enhancers that he decided his best course of action was to pay someone to come up with his own cocktail. He said to me one time,its what you have to do to if you want to be successful and earn a living. His attempts to come up with his own mix cost him a bit of money but he eventually abandoned the project as he felt uncomfortable with where it may lead to get real results.

A cocktail of what?  A classic target for the snake-oil seller.

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

The third told me almost exactly the same story. He had become convinced that some were using something that wasn't being picked up in testing,so he had a chemist who was an owner work on coming up with a concotion to increase perfromance. Well this fellas chemist actually did and they used it just the once and the horse won,in fact the story went that it worked so well that the driver couldn't pull the horse up after the finish and had to run it into a fence some distance after the finish to get it to stop.But then blue magic hit the headlines and the trainers chemist got spooked and pulled the pin.

Interesting stuff @the galah - you've been close the action.  So I'm guessing now that since you mentioned blue magic that we are talking 20 years ago.  Did you trainer get a full blood analysis done of the horse that bolted in before giving it some concoction?  He may have found there was a problem which was addressed by the concoction.

36 minutes ago, the galah said:

Now all the examples i use were prior to blue magic but around that time.

So the decade is the late 90's into the new millennium.  

37 minutes ago, the galah said:

Everyone of those trainers very good trainers,one as good as anyone,and all very honest people.

So the reason i think as i do is because i see the harm that is caused by the use of undected performance enahncers. It influences the thinking of honest hard working people.

Are you suggesting that Purdon, Stewart and Grimson AREN'T hardworking? 

38 minutes ago, the galah said:

And the reality is the stuff they use today is more effective than what was used 20 years ago.

The reality is it is easily detected in testing just as it was 20 years ago but today much much easier.

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

Also i would say if the RIU have to hide out in some neighbours hedge to keep people honest ,then i am sure most will understand why they do that and while it seems many may chose not to say that in certain company,i'm pretty sure i know what many say and are thinking.

How is "hiding in a hedge" keeping someone honest?  Surely you would have to know they were hiding in the hedge and if you knew they were hiding in a hedge wouldn't you do something different?  Na - only old school ex-cops hide in hedges.  Even then when they use modern technology such as phone taps they find nothing.  Those that have been caught quite frankly haven't been the brightest sparks on the planet.

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

Besides if you happen to be a target and are doing nothing wrong,why worry about stuff like that,given  you know it helps keep people honest in the industry you participate in.

Really?  I may not be paranoid but that doesn't mean someone isn't out to get me.  It doesn't do anything for honesty.  I met someone who went on the INCA raid and what I heard it was all a big joke and a chance to play like FBI agents from TV.

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, Forbury said:

Hi chief up most respct you do a fine job and I know nothing in doping just horses abilities and what I learned when I was in the know as a teenager.there has been only one group that has improved horses like Grimson and that is the Gleeson's .Chris glesson only had to get to the death race over they just keeped on trucking.he improved them laps.if they tested horse before or after the race they find nothing.its when the blood was flowing the doping worked.thats how it worked.andrew peace was another one that did the same.that was over 30 years ago and I bet the drugs are better now obviously.there is to much evidence to say that cheats prosper and that it's to difficult to detect.just look at Lance Armstrong and what about flo jo grithith USA female athlete that no one will get close to her time in the 100.she was a drug cheat.im just voicing my thoughts and like I said I know nothing.you insight research facts is good as every debate needs opinions right or wrong.its not defamation as this is just that opinions.all the best 🤩

They all got caught.  You would have us believe that with today's testing science and source samples to test against supposedly the best labs in the world can't find anything!  Fairy tale stuff.  Is Grimson a scientific genius?  Bollocks.  

[the galah]

41 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How is "hiding in a hedge" keeping someone honest?  Surely you would have to know they were hiding in the hedge and if you knew they were hiding in a hedge wouldn't you do something different?  Na - only old school ex-cops hide in hedges.  Even then when they use modern technology such as phone taps they find nothing.  Those that have been caught quite frankly haven't been the brightest sparks on the planet.

 

You see chief ,you should look at  "those that have been caught" that you have just referred to and ask yourself this.

What do they have in common.

Well i can tell you a couple of things that stuck out.

1)most were around or under 30.(their ages were similar)

2)they had mostly spent all their working life employed in the industry.

So have you ever bothered to ask yourself,why is it that those caught felt they needed to cheat and why did they think they could get away with it.

To me the answer is obvious. Its staring you in the face,but you won't see it if you don't bother to look for it.

Edited November 21, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They all got caught.  You would have us believe that with today's testing science and source samples to test against supposedly the best labs in the world can't find anything!  Fairy tale stuff.  Is Grimson a scientific genius?  Bollocks.  

Think Forb's was saying the trainers 'consult' with so-called Scientific genius's Chief.

The examples Forbury uses are good . Lance Armstrong was tested constantly and rigidly, but the cycling world was only brought down by a Team-mates confessions after years of Top level and 'Millions of dollars' with winning performances. They had scientific genius on the Cycle Squad. They DIDn't even care the 'Drug Cheat accusation was flying thick and fast every race. They had the Lab testing beat !! as well as the opponent.  You can bet your bottom dollar ALL the cycle teams to this day have 'scientific Genius' as a main man of each and every team  for them to back up day after day on those Grand Tours.

Horses not so different. They have phases of milkshakes  etorphine, caffiene, arsenic, etc etc, etc as the years go by. eventually testing catches up with the masking. JUST Like Armstrong the cyclist, some Trainers are 'Beating the testing Lab' just as much as 'Beating opponents horses on the track'. 🏆

I love the fact you defend each and every one of the 'Grimson' spectacular performances , feeling the full brunt of it in NZ now, as he beats the near best on the planet in Marky P in the Cup.  Cam Hart is doing a great job steering them though. 😆.😉. might be just out-driving them ? 🤔😂

 

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, the galah said:

You see chief ,you should look at  "those that have been caught" that you have just referred to and ask yourself this.

What did they get caught for in NZ Harness?  Stupidity mainly.  None were using any wonder PED.

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Well i can tell you a couple of things that stuck out.

1)most were around or under 30.(their ages were similar)

2)they had mostly spent all their working life employed in the industry.

So have you ever bothered to ask yourself,why is it that those caught felt they needed to cheat and why did they think they could get away with it.

Perhaps they were sick of working extremely long hours (since they were old enough to hold a horses lead) and getting very very little in return.  Desperate.  There were also issues of gambling and recreational drugs.  

14 minutes ago, the galah said:

To me the answer is obvious. Its staring you in the face,but you won't see it if you don't bother to look for it.

What's staring me in the face is how hard it is to make a living in the industry now.  As for these guys being bright enough to manage a complex PED using scheme.  You're dreaming @the galah .  However the rumours justify the ineptitude of many - including the RIB, the administrators, the average trainer and the poor punter.

[the galah]

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

  

What's staring me in the face is how hard it is to make a living in the industry now.  As for these guys being bright enough to manage a complex PED using scheme.  You're dreaming @the galah .  However the rumours justify the ineptitude of many - including the RIB, the administrators, the average trainer and the poor punter.

Whats staring me in the face is an industry where the big races are all won by the same under 1% of trainers when it comes to the pacers.

Theres nothing for the remaining 99% to relate to.

when it comes to winning the big races,there are no hobby trainers or no trainers with the rest of their team just average horses. There are no role models where the 99% can say,i can do that one day if i get the right horse.The 99% don't believe they can and the results confirm they can't.

thats a significant reason why the industry is in decline.It seems to be ignored by many,but once again its staring people in the face if they bother to see it.

As we have discussed ,there are many reasons the 1% win all the races,but the perception is perfomance enhancers can make the difference between winning and being an also ran.Thats why the perception around this years trotting cup is not a good result for harness racing in nz. It just reinforces in the 99% what they already think and know.

Edited November 21, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, the galah said:

There are no role models where the 99% can say,i can do that one day if i get the right horse.The 99% don't believe they can and the results confirm they can't.

There never has been.  Wasn't the last and most successful amateur trainer W. E. Lowe from Hinds?

 

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, the galah said:

As we have discussed ,there are many reasons the 1% win all the races,but the perception is perfomance enhancers can make the difference between winning and being an also ran.Thats why the perception around this years trotting cup is not a good result for harness racing in nz. It just reinforces in the 99% what they already think and know.

No it reinforces what they THINK not what they KNOW.

If you think things are different to what they were in the 70's and 80's, arguably the halcyon days of NZ harness racing you are wrong or have a poor memory.  I was hands on involved in those days and the rumours and tall poppy syndrome was as rampant then as now.  The difference is we didn't have mobile phones or social media to build our conspiracy theories on.

[the galah]

24 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

No it reinforces what they THINK not what they KNOW.

If you think things are different to what they were in the 70's and 80's, arguably the halcyon days of NZ harness racing you are wrong or have a poor memory.  I was hands on involved in those days and the rumours and tall poppy syndrome was as rampant then as now.  The difference is we didn't have mobile phones or social media to build our conspiracy theories on.

If the tall poppy syndrome was the reason,then how come it doesn't get used against trainers like p nairn,g hope,p williamson,etc, etc? In other words i think your describing selective use of the tall poppy syndrome. And given its obviously selective,doesn't that undermine your idea that it is even tall poppy syndrome...Youv'e got me talking in riddles now,so i will end on that note,but the riddle does make sense.

Edited November 21, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

If the tall poppy syndrome was the reason,then how come it doesn't get used against trainers like p nairn,g hope,p williamson,etc, etc? In other words i think your describing selective use of the tall poppy syndrome. And given its obviously selective,doesn't that undermine your idea that it is even tall poppy syndrome...Youv'e got me talking in riddles now,so i will end on that note,but the riddle does make sense.

Exactly WHY doesn't it get used against those trainers?  Your best Harness investigative journalist had a dig at Ben Hope why not discuss that riddle?  

Those that fail whether it be training or punting look for something to blame.