Emma Stewart Stay Continues. Makes legal sense.

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I gather you are willing to find excuses for Walker but not Stewart?

In the Wigg case possibly a fine however there were some differences between her case and the Stewart and Walker cases.  She was caught administering on race day.  No one clear day ambiguity there.  

But most trainers don't do anything and some fly under the radar.  Stewart was out by a few hours.  Arguably, using your logic, the other trainers don't keep their horses healthy.  But at least by inference you now agree that illegal PED's weren't being administered.

So you're saying someone shouldn't have legal representation and just roll over?  The law doesn't work like that.  It needs to be challenged.  Unfortunately in racing those that challenge are up against a bottomless pit of funding and it has broken some.  I don't see you arguing against the millions of industry money spent by the RIB.

 

In some of these case yes.  But the penalties are couched in terms of "a fine up to x amount and or a disqualification up to x amount".  

Your argument is that she was looking after the horses health .

I'm saying she would know that part of the reason for the 1 clear day treatment rule was to prevent people administering treatments that can be detrimental to a horses health. 

all this ,she cares about animal welfare is just rubbish in my opinion.

She cares about winning first and foremost.

She was willing to knowingly break the rules to achieve that.Behavior like that has consequences if you get caught.She was. 

I've never said its a hanging offence,ive just said she should be treated the same as the next person. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, the galah said:

Your argument is that she was looking after the horses health .

What else was she doing?

41 minutes ago, the galah said:

I'm saying she would know that part of the reason for the 1 clear day treatment rule was to prevent people administering treatments that can be detrimental to a horses health. 

But she didn't administer anything that was detrimental to the horses health for obvious reasons.

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

She cares about winning first and foremost.

Which requires an elite athlete being at or near peak fitness and health.

 

43 minutes ago, the galah said:

I've never said its a hanging offence,ive just said she should be treated the same as the next person. 

No but you are behaving like it is a hanging offence.

[the galah]

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No but you are behaving like it is a hanging offence.

I think thats an exaggeration,but i have always thought theres something dodgy about how emma stewarts horses run. 

This offence just reinforces my beliefs. 

Why,because it shows me they think its no big deal to break the rules.

I certainly don't think that the stipes just happened to turn up the first time the stewart stable were doing something illegal.I'm sure it would be a regular occurrence and speaks to the culture of that stable. Also,its says they train 150 horses so obviously they need a reasonable size staff,yet it seems those staff are happy working in a stable that would regularly break the rules.

As i said,clearly that stable is dodgy in my opinion. 

C tonkin was the blue magic man. His father was seen as dodgy.

So when they get caught ,i certainly have no sympathy for them.

So given i think they are dodgy,thats why i think the animal welfare excuse is a load of rubbish. Dodgy stables put animal welfare behind winning. They do what it takes to win,legal or not.

So my comments just reflect what i think.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, the galah said:

I think thats an exaggeration,but i have always thought theres something dodgy about how emma stewarts horses run. 

Of the big successful stables who haven't you thought were dodgy?

11 minutes ago, the galah said:

Why,because it shows me they think its no big deal to break the rules.

I certainly don't think that the stipes just happened to turn up the first time the stewart stable were doing something illegal.I'm sure it would be a regular occurrence and speaks to the culture of that stable. Also,its says they train 150 horses so obviously they need a reasonable size staff,yet it seems those staff are happy working in a stable that would regularly break the rules.

Illegal?  Illegal in the sense they broke the "one clear day" rule by administering something LEGAL 24+ hours prior to the race the horses were entered for.  

How are you sure it was or is a regular occurrence?  You are speculating.

14 minutes ago, the galah said:

As i said,clearly that stable is dodgy in my opinion. 

C tonkin was the blue magic man. His father was seen as dodgy.

Let it go.  He wasn't the only trainer using Blue Magic 20 years ago - you don't seem to treat Mark Purdon the same.

16 minutes ago, the galah said:

So given i think they are dodgy,thats why i think the animal welfare excuse is a load of rubbish. Dodgy stables put animal welfare behind winning. They do what it takes to win,legal or not.

You THINK they are dodgy based on limited real evidence that they are.  The animal welfare approach isn't an excuse.  All successful trainers know that a healthy happy horse is a winning horse unless of course they are a Lord Module.

[Chief Stipe]

 

 

[the galah]

16 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

 

I dont follow the Darren weir case much. All i know is he was charged with more animal cruelty offences about 3 months ago realting to the time he was a trainer,,involving giving electric shocks to horses while they ran on a treadmill,some with blinkers on all designed to scare them into running faster when hit with the whip.

The addiction to winning you refer to is a good way of describing the lengths some may go to win while ignoring the harm they may be doing to the animal and the connections of those they compete against.I actually think it is a real thing. But like any addiction,its always there and often hard for some to keep on top of. 

Which is why i personally think people like weir should be able to handle educating horses,but never should be able to compete in the racing environment where he has proven he can't keep his addiction under control. Putting someone in the same environment is only tempting fate. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Which is why i personally think people like weir should be able to handle educating horses,but never should be able to compete in the racing environment where he has proven he can't keep his addiction under control. Putting someone in the same environment is only tempting fate. 

Bollocks.  The point I was making was aimed directly at you.  You have no concept of redemption, forgiveness or rehabilitation.

If someone makes a mistake 20 years ago that's it.  Waller classes Weir a training genius.  

There are many many aspects of racing that could be called inherently cruel.  Where do you draw the line?

Should all horses run without bits, blindfolds or in harness - hobbles?

Should they not be raced until they are 5 or 6 when they stop growing?

You enjoy the sport @the galah and you spend many hours a week watching it and presumably gambling on it.  You pontificate and constantly look for illegal reasons for the success of some.

Training horses is a tough game as @Gammalite would attest and some horses are damn tough to train.  Often A horse's strong will (call it an addiction) to win makes them right arseholes to train.  Some are super talented but damn lazy - I've owned one of those and may be a jigger in training might have stopped its inevitable journey to the knackers yard.

I'm sure you reminesce about the magnificent performances of Lord Module and other champions from times gone by while you quietly ignore the fact that under today's rules and those that some wish to impose on the sport, Lord Module would have never been a champion.

[the galah]

So you can think a man who regularly electric shocked his horses with a jigger while they were on a treadmill machine and with blinkers on ,i guess so they could't see what was coming,deserves forgiveness for his actions.

Weir isn't a genius,hes an abuser of animals who would have continued doing it until he got caught.

He also employed people who were happy to abuse them as well.

I suppose you would be all for having your daughter start going out and perhaps marry a man known to regularly bash his wife.No difference,after all,you are the forgiving type.

No wonder we disagree that much. you never draw the line .

Edited December 26, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

I dont follow the Darren weir case much. All i know is he was charged with more animal cruelty offences about 3 months ago realting to the time he was a trainer,,involving giving electric shocks to horses while they ran on a treadmill,some with blinkers on all designed to scare them into running faster when hit with the whip.

The addiction to winning you refer to is a good way of describing the lengths some may go to win while ignoring the harm they may be doing to the animal and the connections of those they compete against.I actually think it is a real thing. But like any addiction,its always there and often hard for some to keep on top of. 

Which is why i personally think people like weir should be able to handle educating horses,but never should be able to compete in the racing environment where he has proven he can't keep his addiction under control. Putting someone in the same environment is only tempting fate. 

It's a huge story really.

I can see what you're saying as 'Addiction' in some shape or form affects nearly every person in some form or another and overlaps onto the people around them. there's been much said about alcohol , Pokies , cig's, gamblng destroying lives, families and creating community chaos as well as the deaths. 

Darren Weir was such a huge force in racing . even his main rival ex-pat Waller is putting horses with him ........  snippet >>>>>>>>

Waller has up to eight to 10 horses – including 2023 Melbourne Cup runner-up Soulcombe – in pre-training with Weir and he was glowing in his description of how his horses came back to him.

I don't think you can be addicted to using a jigger ? so am sure Weir can come back and make a good job of training race-horses.

I agree with Chief in there should be a chance for redemption, rehabilitation and those sort of things as most do something they regret at some stage or another (in racing and life in general) but can make a change ... after serving the Nominated Penalty for their original Infringement.

some trainers are addicts and get disqualified over and over and finally removed . Webberley, Hunter and Donahue i know here. all seemed normal horse trainers . with very fine wins. but keep over-stepping the 'treatments. and getting DQed. No good bringing up things from 20 years ago , like the Blue Magic thing and that... was just a phase like milkshakes for example... but people move on and generally will TRY and stay 'With-in ' the Limits. as best they can.

When you have the results of ALLstars and Emma Stewart stables over many years . they do a great job at 'managing the limits' and with the bucketloads of Group 1 winners they get , I fail to criticise that , but rather applaud it . (Like Chief does with Te Akau ) and defend the small failings that creep in (like the Dunn, or Te Akau or even Chris Waller himself ) who all had horses Disqualified from races for positives in recent times for 'Various' reasons.  

I've been very Sceptical of Grimson here,  but as time goes by, and he continues to Win , like with Swayzee NZ Cup , i'm gunna have to change my tune and be in 'Awe' instead ..if that stable continues to show no 'exceeding the limits' at the Lab or in training method. (like Weir did)  

[the galah]

4 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

It's a huge story really.

I can see what you're saying as 'Addiction' in some shape or form affects nearly every person in some form or another and overlaps onto the people around them. there's been much said about alcohol , Pokies , cig's, gamblng destroying lives, families and creating community chaos as well as the deaths. 

Darren Weir was such a huge force in racing . even his main rival ex-pat Waller is putting horses with him ........  snippet >>>>>>>>

Waller has up to eight to 10 horses – including 2023 Melbourne Cup runner-up Soulcombe – in pre-training with Weir and he was glowing in his description of how his horses came back to him.

I don't think you can be addicted to using a jigger ? so am sure Weir can come back and make a good job of training race-horses.

I agree with Chief in there should be a chance for redemption, rehabilitation and those sort of things as most do something they regret at some stage or another (in racing and life in general) but can make a change ... after serving the Nominated Penalty for their original Infringement.

some trainers are addicts and get disqualified over and over and finally removed . Webberley, Hunter and Donahue i know here. all seemed normal horse trainers . with very fine wins. but keep over-stepping the 'treatments. and getting DQed. No good bringing up things from 20 years ago , like the Blue Magic thing and that... was just a phase like milkshakes for example... but people move on and generally will TRY and stay 'With-in ' the Limits. as best they can.

When you have the results of ALLstars and Emma Stewart stables over many years . they do a great job at 'managing the limits' and with the bucketloads of Group 1 winners they get , I fail to criticise that , but rather applaud it . (Like Chief does with Te Akau ) and defend the small failings that creep in (like the Dunn, or Te Akau or even Chris Waller himself ) who all had horses Disqualified from races for positives in recent times for 'Various' reasons.  

I've been very Sceptical of Grimson here,  but as time goes by, and he continues to Win , like with Swayzee NZ Cup , i'm gunna have to change my tune and be in 'Awe' instead ..if that stable continues to show no 'exceeding the limits' at the Lab or in training method. (like Weir did)  

I just googled Weirs disciplinary record.

Fined or disqualified 15 times since 2001.(12 different years he was fined)

Misleading statements,horse at trails when on anti imflammatories,milkshaking,have milkshaking gear on racecourse another time,positive swabs,horses he supposedly trained at other trainers properties,Horses he trains not at the stable that he said they were,horse late scratched because it appeared to have been stomach tubed on the day.....

Then he has these new charges of animal cruelty.

 

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

I just googled Weirs disciplinary record.

Fined or disqualified 15 times since 2001.(12 different years he was fined)

Misleading statements,horse at trails when on anti imflammatories,milkshaking,have milkshaking gear on racecourse another time,positive swabs,horses he supposedly trained at other trainers properties,Horses he trains not at the stable that he said they were,horse late scratched because it appeared to have been stomach tubed on the day.....

Then he has these new charges of animal cruelty.

 

Yes ..that doesn't sound good at all. is a very tricky one to deal with in that case.

He does have 2 Prominent daughters. maybe they can take up the helm ?? very good horsepeople with better reputation/record then it would seem lol 😋😁

  Lady Trainers doing very well in Oz like Gai and Anabel Neasham going great guns, and Ex-pat kiwi Natalie Young has been phenominal in recent times too , with big racing Group 1 wins and performances.

The best 2 in Oz harness in Belinda McCarthy and Emma Stewart ... also Chantal up here, Julie Douglas and Jess Tubbs in Victoria . 

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, the galah said:

I just googled Weirs disciplinary record.

Fined or disqualified 15 times since 2001.(12 different years he was fined)

Misleading statements,horse at trails when on anti imflammatories,milkshaking,have milkshaking gear on racecourse another time,positive swabs,horses he supposedly trained at other trainers properties,Horses he trains not at the stable that he said they were,horse late scratched because it appeared to have been stomach tubed on the day.....

Then he has these new charges of animal cruelty.

 

In the interests of fairness and rather than relying on @the galah commentary:

Darren Weir Inquiry
Darren Weir's disciplinary record

 By Racenet
01:14am • 06 February 2019
Here is the full disciplinary record of disgraced trainer Darren Weir, banned on Wednesday for four years.

February, 2019 – Disqualified for four years on three charges over the discovery of jiggers and a charge of conduct prejudicial to the imagine of racing. 

September, 2018 – Fined $5000 after pleading guilty to making false or misleading statements over the identity of seven horses at the Ballarat trials on October 3.

January, 2018 – Fined $500 over the late on-course arrival of Night's Watch at Doomben. The horse was scratched and missed the opportunity to qualify for the Magic Millions.

September, 2017 – Fined $2500 after pleading guilty to taking Air Guitar to the Burrumbeet trials when the horse had non-steroidal anti-inflammatories in its system.

November, 2013 – Fined $2000 after a security guard arrived at his Ballarat stable to monitor VRC sprint hopeful Platelet, only to find the horse had been transferred to Weir's Warrnambool base without stewards' knowledge. It was the seventh time in five years Weir had been called in by stewards for failing to notify a change of stable for his horses.

May, 2013 – Fined $7000 after Doing Our Best returned a positive swab to Frusemide after winning at Ballarat on February 16, 2013.

March, 2011 – Fined $500 for using abusive language towards a trackwork supervisor at Ballarat.

January, 2010 – Weir-trained Time Matters was withdrawn from a Listed race at Caulfield after a routine race day-stable inspection revealed the horse had been at Jarrod McLean's Warrnambool stable.

November, 2009 – Fined $1500 after Lethal Gal was scratched from Ballarat Cup Day after a race-day inspection at Weir's stable revealed the horse was located in a nearby stable of another trainer.

February, 2008 – Fined $15,000 after pleading guilty to sending Grey Jeune to the July 14, 2007 Murtoa meeting with an elevated bicarbonate (TC02) level. Grey Jeune won the Murtoa Cup, but was subsequently stripped of the win.

May, 2006 – Glebe Run was controversially scratched on the last day of the 2006 Warrnambool May Carnival. Stewards deemed there was a 'strong possibility' the horse had been stomach-tubed. Blood and urine tests from Glebe Run were clear and no action was taken against Weir.

September, 2003 – Suspended for three months after he was caught administering a substance via a stomach tube to Kinther King at Rupanyup on the way to the August 8 Murtoa races.

October, 2002 – Fined $1000 after being found in possession of stomach tubing equipment at Manangatang races.

January, 2001 – Suspended for eight weeks for giving false evidence over the late scratching of Amanda Huggenkiss at Warrnambool. Weir was followed by racetrack detective Peter McMillan into the float car park where Weir placed the horse on a float for 13 minutes before re-emerging.

January, 2001 – Fined $1000 for removing Amanda Huggenkiss from the saddling paddock at Warrnambool and for having a needle in his possession.
 

 

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, the galah said:

I suppose you would be all for having your daughter start going out and perhaps marry a man known to regularly bash his wife.No difference,after all,you are the forgiving type.

A very poor analogy.  My daughter would be smart enough not to go near a KNOWN wife basher.

I suppose you wouldn't send your horse to Peter Moody either based on your criteria?  

Actually there aren't many if any top trainers that would meet your criteria.

[Chief Stipe]

Weir in 10 years of training averaged 360 wins a year.  Puts his judicial record in a bit more perspective.  That's over 3,600 winners all swabbed.

[Gammalite]

Well they finally heard the appeal this week by Emma on the 'Stay of proceedings' for the 6 month disqualification from Sept last year.

The Disqualification officially quashed. 

Emma being an excellent trainer and still preparing 105 starters for 43 wins this year ($865,000) and that after had even transferred many horses to partner Clayton Tonkin with all this Stay of proceedings going on. a very good win ratio.

(compared to say star NSW horseman Luke McCarthy 227 starters for 45 wins ( also earning near $865,000) )

5 JUN 2024

Last Updated 6 Jun 2024

Trainer Emma Stewart has been fined $12,000 but escaped disqualification after the Victorian Racing Tribunal heard her appeals today.

Harness Racing Victoria stewards disqualified Stewart in December for six months after she plead guilty to administering an injection to Act Now and attempting to administer an injection to Show Me Heaven a day before their September 17 races, an offence under the rules of racing.

Judge Bowman said, as a result, the panel did not believe a period of disqualification was appropriate, but instead was imposing the financial penalty of $5000 for each charge.

“We appreciate this is a substantial amount for the administration of a substance that has no affect on performance,” Judge Bowman said.

Stewart was fined a further $2000 for failure to thoroughly maintain a log book, which Judge Bowman upheld, increasing the total penalty to $12,000.

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Well they finally heard the appeal this week by Emma on the 'Stay of proceedings' for the 6 month disqualification from Sept last year.

The Disqualification officially quashed. 

Emma being an excellent trainer and still preparing 105 starters for 43 wins this year ($865,000) and that after had even transferred many horses to partner Clayton Tonkin with all this Stay of proceedings going on. a very good win ratio.

(compared to say star NSW horseman Luke McCarthy 227 starters for 45 wins ( also earning near $865,000) )

5 JUN 2024

Last Updated 6 Jun 2024

Trainer Emma Stewart has been fined $12,000 but escaped disqualification after the Victorian Racing Tribunal heard her appeals today.

Harness Racing Victoria stewards disqualified Stewart in December for six months after she plead guilty to administering an injection to Act Now and attempting to administer an injection to Show Me Heaven a day before their September 17 races, an offence under the rules of racing.

Judge Bowman said, as a result, the panel did not believe a period of disqualification was appropriate, but instead was imposing the financial penalty of $5000 for each charge.

“We appreciate this is a substantial amount for the administration of a substance that has no affect on performance,” Judge Bowman said.

Stewart was fined a further $2000 for failure to thoroughly maintain a log book, which Judge Bowman upheld, increasing the total penalty to $12,000.

 

 

A fair result.  Again a trainer nailed for being proactive in caring for the health of their horse.

[Chief Stipe]

They seem to have a legally fairer more professional process in OZ than here.