Another Serious Question

[Doomed]

Some expert on handicapping, black type etc might be able to help me out here. It is beyond my basic understanding.

The despised Timaru Racing Club race today, the only club in the country with a few race-days and no feature meeting. Probably in a tight race with Reefton and Foxton as the clubs NZTR would love to see the back of.

Timaru Cup, no status at all. Rating 99 top weight, 10 starters rated higher than 81. Capacity field of 14, ballot scratched.

Queen Elizabeth at Auckland, group 3. Rating 95 top weight, 4 starters rated over 81. 9 acceptors, obviously no need for a ballot.

Rich Hill mile, group 2. Rating 95 top weight, 5 starters rated over 81. 13 acceptors, again no need for a ballot.

Does anyone understand how this works? I know the black type status was determined before these races were run, but do people think that on the basis of this year's running the Timaru Cup is likely to be promoted to Group 2 next year and the Queen Elizabeth and Rich Hill demoted to listed at best?

[curious]

15 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Some expert on handicapping, black type etc might be able to help me out here. It is beyond my basic understanding.

The despised Timaru Racing Club race today, the only club in the country with a few race-days and no feature meeting. Probably in a tight race with Reefton and Foxton as the clubs NZTR would love to see the back of.

Timaru Cup, no status at all. Rating 99 top weight, 10 starters rated higher than 81. Capacity field of 14, ballot scratched.

Queen Elizabeth at Auckland, group 3. Rating 95 top weight, 4 starters rated over 81. 9 acceptors, obviously no need for a ballot.

Rich Hill mile, group 2. Rating 95 top weight, 5 starters rated over 81. 13 acceptors, again no need for a ballot.

Does anyone understand how this works? I know the black type status was determined before these races were run, but do people think that on the basis of this year's running the Timaru Cup is likely to be promoted to Group 2 next year and the Queen Elizabeth and Rich Hill demoted to listed at best?

You'd think the Timaru Cup should at least get its listed status back though that is dependent to some extent on the subsequent performance of the place-getters. And as suggested be upgraded to feature level replacing one of the two we've just had in Otago/Southland.

[Doomed]

Another interesting aspect of today's meeting is that if Timaru had run one extra race and finished at 6.35 they would have qualified as a twilight meeting and been able to run all their races for $25,000. Currently the last race is at 6pm. I presume they were prevented from doing that. As it is there are 10 ballots who won't get a start today. One race had 25 noms so lots of horses eliminated as well.

Even Kurow is interesting. The top four in the Cup are all rated 85 and higher, which is the same as the Rich Hill mile and one more than the Queen Liz.

I'm not sure if this means SI racing is really strong at the moment, or that NI racing is really weak. Or perhaps the rating system is faulty.

[Huey]

There is a simple solution to getting it upgraded , simply transfer the Timaru Cup to the Auckland Racing Club, the race will likely be upgraded to a G1 within 3 seasons.

Like most things in club land racing in NZ it's just another rigged capper. 

[Doomed]

32 minutes ago, Huey said:

There is a simple solution to getting it upgraded , simply transfer the Timaru Cup to the Auckland Racing Club, the race will likely be upgraded to a G1 within 3 seasons.

Like most things in club land racing in NZ it's just another rigged capper. 

Certainly a lot of the decision making would not bear close scrutiny if there was any sort of neutral body that looked at such things.

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, Huey said:

There is a simple solution to getting it upgraded , simply transfer the Timaru Cup to the Auckland Racing Club, the race will likely be upgraded to a G1 within 3 seasons.

Like most things in club land racing in NZ it's just another rigged capper. 

How is it rigged?  Isn't the Grading done by a clear set of rules based on horse performance?

[Huey]

45 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

How is it rigged?  Isn't the Grading done by a clear set of rules based on horse performance?

Do you think there would be any attempt by the Pattern committee or NZTR for that matter to have the Timaru Cup upgraded based on what the OP has noted?

Not to mention several other issues noted by the OP, it is not a level play field out there not even close, you are very naive if you think it is.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Huey
spelling

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Huey said:

Do you think there would be any attempt by the Pattern committee or NZTR for that matter to have the Timaru Cup upgraded based on what the OP has noted?

Not to mention several other issues noted by the OP, it is not a level play field out there not even close, you are very naive if you think it is.

Call me naive if you wish but if what you suggest is true then no northern metro black type races have been downgraded in recent years.  Correct?

[curious]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

Do you think there would be any attempt by the Pattern committee or NZTR for that matter to have the Timaru Cup upgraded based on what the OP has noted?

It's nothing to do with NZTR and yes, I'm certain the pattern committee would consider an upgrade if that meets guidelines.

[Ultra]

Black-type race ratings are based on the international rating of the first 4 placegetters.

International rating is determined by panel of international handicappers (1 from NZ).

 

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How is it rigged?  Isn't the Grading done by a clear set of rules based on horse performance?

No. There was no logical reason to downgrade the Timaru Cup. It was totally random and arbitrary. There are several NI races at Tauranga and other venues that had less justification than Timaru to retain graded status. Even some Riccarton races have been harshly treated.

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, Doomed said:

There was no logical reason to downgrade the Timaru Cup

What was it downgraded from and to what?

[Doomed]

13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What was it downgraded from and to what?

Went from listed to nothing, but did retain its listed stake. Several NI races with much poorer recent history retained their status.

NZTR wants to centre most southern racing around Riccarton and Wingatui. Even that Hazlett stakes on boxing day is hard to justify.

The whole group system is almost past its use by date in this part of the world. Aussie is even worse with all the gimmick races with high stakes and restricted entry destroying the system over there. NZ is just as bad. It is probable that the top 2yos and 3yos may not even be eligible for NZ's richest races this season. And that after last year's bizarre situation when a horse was named top 2yo after winning no significant group races, and has hardly fired a shot as a 3yo.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, curious said:

It's nothing to do with NZTR and yes, I'm certain the pattern committee would consider an upgrade if that meets guidelines.

They have absolutely no chance of the race being upgraded you're dreaming , if only racing in this country worked like you think it does. 

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Call me naive if you wish but if what you suggest is true then no northern metro black type races have been downgraded in recent years.  Correct?

Those you put on a pedestal or in your case idolise is enough to show anyone the level of naivety you operate under.

[Chief Stipe]

51 minutes ago, Huey said:

Those you put on a pedestal or in your case idolise is enough to show anyone the level of naivety you operate under.

You didn't answer the question.  Have no North Island Metro black type races been downgraded?

I assure you I don't idolise anyone and my naivety has long gone particularly when it comes to racing.

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

NZTR wants to centre most southern racing around Riccarton and Wingatui. Even that Hazlett stakes on boxing day is hard to justify.

But that strategy has no bearing on a black type race maintaining its status.  Isn't the New Zealand Cup on a slippery slope?

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

Several NI races with much poorer recent history retained their status.

For example?

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

The whole group system is almost past its use by date in this part of the world. Aussie is even worse with all the gimmick races with high stakes and restricted entry destroying the system over there. NZ is just as bad.

I agree.  The Everest being a prime example.

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

And that after last year's bizarre situation when a horse was named top 2yo after winning no significant group races, and has hardly fired a shot as a 3yo.

What's that got to do with the Pattern Grading system?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Doomed said:

And that after last year's bizarre situation when a horse was named top 2yo after winning no significant group races, and has hardly fired a shot as a 3yo.

Got 45 votes out of 59.  Are you suggesting another system?

The 3yr old and horse of the year hasn't done all that well this year either.

[Doomed]

24 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Got 45 votes out of 59.  Are you suggesting another system?

The 3yr old and horse of the year hasn't done all that well this year either.

I think that means that you are agreeing with me. For you, and obviously many others, to be happy that a horse becomes 2yo of the year without winning a group 1 or 2 race surely means the group system no longer has any relevance?

[TAB For Ever]

9 hours ago, Doomed said:

Some expert on handicapping, black type etc might be able to help me out here. It is beyond my basic understanding.

The despised Timaru Racing Club race today, the only club in the country with a few race-days and no feature meeting. Probably in a tight race with Reefton and Foxton as the clubs NZTR would love to see the back of.

Timaru Cup, no status at all. Rating 99 top weight, 10 starters rated higher than 81. Capacity field of 14, ballot scratched.

Queen Elizabeth at Auckland, group 3. Rating 95 top weight, 4 starters rated over 81. 9 acceptors, obviously no need for a ballot.

Rich Hill mile, group 2. Rating 95 top weight, 5 starters rated over 81. 13 acceptors, again no need for a ballot.

Does anyone understand how this works? I know the black type status was determined before these races were run, but do people think that on the basis of this year's running the Timaru Cup is likely to be promoted to Group 2 next year and the Queen Elizabeth and Rich Hill demoted to listed at best?

Doomed old son ,

For a poster who regularly says he has 'lost interest ' in NZ Racing you sure seem to care about it a lot ...with an obvious bias toward the raw deal the South Island gets .

What Club are you aligned to ?

I  have always liked the Timaru clubs for both Gallops and harness but they seem to have given up the ghost decades ago and slowly but surely lost their influence.

Even reading their last two Annual reports one senses there's not a lot of enthusiasm there. But like you they seem to bemoan the fact that they not teated well. The  few members who actually attended the AGM were told that they [ Timaru] were in better  financial shape than neighbours Oamaru and Ashburton , two other of you favourites.Do these Clubs ever work together ?

So when you answer the questions that the Chief has posed to you on this thread you may like to tell us what area you live in and what Clubs you feel aligned to through either membership or bias . Thank you .

 

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, Doomed said:

I think that means that you are agreeing with me. For you, and obviously many others, to be happy that a horse becomes 2yo of the year without winning a group 1 or 2 race surely means the group system no longer has any relevance?

No I don't agree.  The horse that ran second in the 2yr old of the year won its Grp1 because Tokyo Tycoon was disqualified.  It didn't win all that much more.  

You could argue that 45 out of 59 voters agree with you.

[Huey]

12 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Doomed old son ,

For a poster who regularly says he has 'lost interest ' in NZ Racing you sure seem to care about it a lot ...with an obvious bias toward the raw deal the South Island gets .

What Club are you aligned to ?

I  have always liked the Timaru clubs for both Gallops and harness but they seem to have given up the ghost decades ago and slowly but surely lost their influence.

Even reading their last two Annual reports one senses there's not a lot of enthusiasm there. But like you they seem to bemoan the fact that they not teated well. The  few members who actually attended the AGM were told that they [ Timaru] were in better  financial shape than neighbours Oamaru and Ashburton , two other of you favourites.Do these Clubs ever work together ?

So when you answer the questions that the Chief has posed to you on this thread you may like to tell us what area you live in and what Clubs you feel aligned to through either membership or bias . Thank you .

 

What a load of garbage, working together NZTR style isn't working together as such ,it's submitting to the whims of NZTR, entities(read stables) & the club(s) they favour financially,operationally & from a race day perspective. There is never any logic to it , it's all based on bias & is more rigged than a North Korean election!

[Huey]

17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Got 45 votes out of 59.  Are you suggesting another system?

The 3yr old and horse of the year hasn't done all that well this year either.

We all know why that horse was named top 2yo , as I say you'd have be naive or have stars in ya idolising eyes not to .

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Huey said:

We all know why that horse was named top 2yo , as I say you'd have be naive or have stars in ya idolising eyes not to .

Explain why it was named top 2yr old if for some other reason than it got 45 votes.  Help me lose my naivety oh enlightened one.

[TAB For Ever]

4 hours ago, Huey said:

What a load of garbage, working together NZTR style isn't working together as such ,it's submitting to the whims of NZTR, entities(read stables) & the club(s) they favour financially,operationally & from a race day perspective. There is never any logic to it , it's all based on bias & is more rigged than a North Korean election!

Poor me  Huey , maybe you can explain your bias ....your posts seem to be cynical , bitter and looking for self pity.

Clubs have been working together for years ,sharing Admin functions ,equipment etc and those who have looked beyond their own doorstep have done a lot better than those who have been hamstrung by personal interest and bias.

Racing no different to other sports and businesses who have not only benefitted with a bit of co-operation and collaboration but often it has meant survival.

I guess it just easier to blame NZTR from the safety of one's padded cell and keyboard. No doubt you will be looking forward to the  fast approaching and next episode of the great West Coast soap opera !

Rip into it !