curious Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 They might be slow but they are certainly not cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 hours ago, Thomass said: 50 years in the industry.. What are your boner fiddies fido?? Less but I kept my eyes and mind open so learnt more than you have in less time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, Special Agent said: The sad part is the Jockeys' Assn agreed wholeheartedly with the original whip rules, then moaned. Even stopping the whipping action interferes with the horse's momentum. Cheating definitely occurs when the money is on, and the money is up. A slap on the wrist won't stop it. You're right...and no more so in Black type That's why NZTR thought they'd defeat whip cheats by making it mandatory to fine 50% of their fee Why not take the lot from them when the likes of Opee blatantly cheats to obtain G 1 BT for breeders? Who knows if major breeding establishments have made contact with jockeys and offered them life time breeding rights if they happen to cheat and get up on the line? FYI France galop introduced a 4 strike rule...and DQ at 9 strikes...while keeping the punting side of things... When Jake Basher Bayless came over last summer and proceeded to IGNORE the whip rule in the Auckland Cup..10 instead of 5...just beaten a snoz...he should've been DQ'd and breeders stripped of their BT rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, billy connolly said: How many laps in the pigskin? Regards cheating, most horses are cheats by nature but very few jockeys are ! Those who want the whip outlawed are all tarred with the same brush. How to win the hearts and minds of new entrants to the industry ..calling the STARS of the show CHEATS yea that'll work Imagine breeding a new generation of thoroughbreds who want to be there...racing each other without being flank whipped 19 times by James Basher McDonald? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 I've seen a few come back with whip welts across the flanks but, you'd expect better from the likes of James McDonald. These other jurisdictions have ideas we could tag onto, especially with regards to whip penalties. Stripping the owner is definitely one way to stop overuse of the whip. When you think about it, if someone is going to cheat in one way like hitting a horse too much when they know the rules, chances are they will cheat in other ways like carving up a field causing a 5 horse pile up, or providing a urine test for another rider. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 I'm a bit of a bob-each-way here. I agree with S.A that a correctly used whip is an aid, or encouragement, not a punishment. I disagree strongly with Billy's comment about 'most horses are cheats'. I think the majority are brave and willing, those few that aren't, often have an experience with humans to reflect upon, or are sick, tired, or sore. As far as social licence goes, the fact that so many either can't use the blasted thing properly, or break such feeble rules that we have, may well mean that the whip is banned altogether at some stage. I wouldn't lose any sleep if it was, but it shouldn't need to be if riders use it appropriately. The sight of J. Mac throwing the kitchen sink at his mount in the Cox Plate was not pretty. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 I like the Swedish rule. These countries are light years ahead of us. According to Svensk Galopp's new rules, the whip can no longer be used for encouragement. Riders may still carry a whip, but it can only be used to ward off a dangerous situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 hours ago, curious said: I like the Swedish rule. These countries are light years ahead of us. According to Svensk Galopp's new rules, the whip can no longer be used for encouragement. Riders may still carry a whip, but it can only be used to ward off a dangerous situation. Hasn't done anything for their bottom line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 11 hours ago, Special Agent said: I've seen a few come back with whip welts across the flanks but, you'd expect better from the likes of James McDonald. These other jurisdictions have ideas we could tag onto, especially with regards to whip penalties. Stripping the owner is definitely one way to stop overuse of the whip. When you think about it, if someone is going to cheat in one way like hitting a horse too much when they know the rules, chances are they will cheat in other ways like carving up a field causing a 5 horse pile up, or providing a urine test for another rider. i see what you did there...OPEE?? Alors...have a look at this RIB hanging judgement on Jake Basher Bayliss...and tell me he didn't deserve to be DQ'd n consideration of the evidence, this breach is, in the opinion of the Adjudicative Committee, assessed as being at the extremely high end. Very few Riders, if any, have shown disregard for the Rule as was demonstrated by Mr Bayliss on this occasion. He submitted that he misjudged the 200 metre mark for the 100 metre mark. That is not plausible nor is it credible. The films clearly show that not only did he strike his mount 10 times, mainly between the 200 and 100 metre marks, but some of the strikes were also particularly forceful. Further, from the 100 metres he continued to strike his mount several times to the finish, which he is entitled to do. Mr Bayliss is, or should be aware, of the 100 metre marker, because it is clearly identified on the rail by red paint to the finish. Mr Bayliss was close to the running rail for the entire run up the straight. In addition, he had earlier, in race six, breached the same Whip Rule, for which he received a $500 fine, this should have ‘put him on notice’. Also, his previous three breaches of the Rule occurred on the same racetrack. Edited March 11 by Thomass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 20 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Hasn't done anything for their bottom line. This is about horses' bottoms, not bottom lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 14 minutes ago, curious said: This is about horses' bottoms, not bottom lines. Then how in your opinion is Sweden "light years ahead of us"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy connolly Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 (edited) 9 hours ago, Freda said: I disagree strongly with Billy's comment about 'most horses are cheats'. I think the majority are brave and willing Then why the need for blinkers, bull prodders, pharmaceutical assistance etc? Even some very good horses were cheats but had that much ability it didn't matter. Domingo was a cheat, Karu was a cheat, Lord Module was a cheat. No doubt there's many more. Toporoa won the 1955 Melbourne Cup (defeating a near champion) but never won another race... funny that. Edited March 12 by billy connolly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 49 minutes ago, billy connolly said: Then why the need for blinkers, bull prodders, pharmaceutical assistance etc? Even some very good horses were cheats but had that much ability it didn't matter. Domingo was a cheat, Karu was a cheat, Lord Module was a cheat. No doubt there's many more. Toporoa won the 1955 Melbourne Cup (defeating a near champion) but never won another race... funny that. They're not all cheats some are born natural racehorses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 4 hours ago, billy connolly said: Then why the need for blinkers, bull prodders, pharmaceutical assistance etc? Even some very good horses were cheats I'm not so sure on your assessment of cheats. I think you should firstly look at the reasons for not trying. Blinkers aren't always for cheats. Bull prodders are no longer supposed to be used. Pharmaceutical assistance is the choice of the trainer and I think they would use whatever horse they were running. I still maintain cheats are made, not born. Maybe the handler needs a bull prodder used on them because they don't know what they are doing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 9 hours ago, Special Agent said: I'm not so sure on your assessment of cheats. I think you should firstly look at the reasons for not trying. Blinkers aren't always for cheats. Bull prodders are no longer supposed to be used. Pharmaceutical assistance is the choice of the trainer and I think they would use whatever horse they were running. I still maintain cheats are made, not born. Maybe the handler needs a bull prodder used on them because they don't know what they are doing. The scribe who dubbed blinkers as 'the badge of the cheat' did many wonderful horses a grave disservice....and those who think the same way display a woeful ignorance about a horse's survival mechanisms and the nature of its vision. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy connolly Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 18 hours ago, Special Agent said: I still maintain cheats are made, not born. Maybe the handler needs a bull prodder used on them because they don't know what they are doing. Cecil Devine (Lord Module) owned, trained and drove champions, Dave Kerr (Domingo) unlike Freda never took a horse to the races unless it could win, Jack Holmes (Karu) won a host of open handicaps and placed in a Melbourne Cup. 18 hours ago, Special Agent said: Blinkers aren't always for cheats. With the odd exception, few of the best performed horses over time ever wore full hooded blinkers. Full hooded blinkers are a massive advantage when used sparingly and especially so when used for the first time on a cheat, but they're also a dangerous piece of apparatus when used on the wrong horse and IMO should not be permitted on two-year-olds or jumpers. Regardless of the arguments of the anti whip brigade, padded whips won't be banned here as they're first and foremost a control mechanism. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 5 minutes ago, billy connolly said: Cecil Devine (Lord Module) owned, trained and drove champions Lord Module would never have been allowed to race under today's rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 9 hours ago, Freda said: those who think the same way display a woeful ignorance about a horse's survival mechanisms and the nature of its vision. Then why do the majority of the best horses don't need them? In my opinion they are over used and often by trainers who are covering for their own inadequacies. As for a horses vision - I would have thought the more a horse could see around them the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Then why do the majority of the best horses don't need them? In my opinion they are over used and often by trainers who are covering for their own inadequacies. As for a horses vision - I would have thought the more a horse could see around them the better. Big Davo's stable are MASSIVE users of BO's!! The more gear the better is their modus..open your eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 19 minutes ago, Thomass said: Big Davo's stable are MASSIVE users of BO's!! I'll think you'll find Mark Walker uses them much less than Jamie Richards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: The more gear the better is their modus..open your eyes You open yours and don't let your fantasy's get in the way of facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 4 hours ago, billy connolly said: Cecil Devine (Lord Module) owned, trained and drove champions, Dave Kerr (Domingo) unlike Freda never took a horse to the races unless it could win Billy, I know/knew all three of these decent horse people fairly well. I'm not sure if you can say the same. So, you say the two horses mentioned above were cheats. I saw Lord Module win at Addington with blood pissing out of his feet and Domingo raced with a sweeney. Rather than the horses be cheats, maybe they were capably handled to win the races they did. Cheats would not have won carrying the afflictions they had. Who the hell are you to berate Freda's training? Like Dave, Freda gets her horses as ready as possible before taking them to the races. Like Freda, Dave did not win every time he lined one up. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy connolly Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 On 13/03/2024 at 7:07 PM, Special Agent said: Billy, I know/knew all three of these decent horse people fairly well. I'm not sure if you can say the same. In my experience those who claim to know everyone and everything actually know very little. FYI, I've ridden winners for Dave Kerr and also ridden Domingo, and although I've never met the man I've also ridden a winner for Cecil Devine. Can you list a few of your achievements in the game please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shad Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 8 hours ago, billy connolly said: In my experience those who claim to know everyone and everything actually know very little. FYI, I've ridden winners for Dave Kerr and also ridden Domingo, and although I've never met the man I've also ridden a winner for Cecil Devine. Can you list a few of your achievements in the game please? You've probably ridden mr aye bee and miles better by any chance, I can't list to many achievements, but can see your point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 10 hours ago, billy connolly said: In my experience those who claim to know everyone and everything actually know very little. Who is claiming to know everyone and everything? I must say though I am disppointed, given how well you know her, at your dissing of Freda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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