captian hammerhead/ shepparton cup/punters outraged?

[the galah]

16 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well it is obvious he is guilty of breaking the rules.  He dropped his leg out of the sulky and hit the leg of the horse he was driving.

@the galah do you want us to pass the hat round to cover your bet?

So those hearing the appeal that overturned the neilsen case in australia,where contact occured over 40m ,didn't know the rules.

Funnily enough,the stipes report today at ashburton noted a driver did the same thing briefly,making contact with his horses leg once in the final straight.

no action,no warning. Just a note that it was accidental.

like with many indiscretions for the same thing,they have many different outcomes depending on the circumstances

Edited Tuesday at 08:24 AM by the galah

[Gammalite]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

So those hearing the appeal that overturned the neilsen case in australia,where contact occured over 40m ,didn't know the rules.

Funnily enough,the stipes report today at ashburton noted a driver did the same thing briefly,making contact with his horses leg once in the final straight.

no action,no warning. Just a note that it was accidental.

like with many indiscretions for the same thing,they have many different outcomes depending on the circumstances

Don't know why they have to overturn it ? just because you don't agree with it. Other incidents are separate affairs.

Chief put the video on the first page of this thread . (thank you Chief) and it shows his leg come down at the 200 , and it didn't look like a slip to me. And he didn't rush to put the leg back up or anything. (until he was sure he had the race Won) 

So the Stewards applied the rule as best they could from observations. That's What they Do all the time. Rules are broken , they take action. nothing wrong with that. 

Personally I think the penalty given was harsh though ( but it will deter ALL in future) A bit like McGrath getting the excessive milkshake DQ there. No one else game enough to milkshake now and get 7-8 years 😎

You can't take any notice of 'honesty' from drivers. I always just blamed the horse , no matter what happened lol 🤣.

Moran has 'packed the shits' and Not put Captain Hammerhead in the 100k Ballarat Cup this week Sat now 😋, so Kanena Provlima might get a fair and square Win 🏆👍. Great young driver James Herbertson has a choice of 2 of the favourites drives though , so will be interesting.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, the galah said:

So those hearing the appeal that overturned the neilsen case in australia,where contact occured over 40m ,didn't know the rules.

Funnily enough,the stipes report today at ashburton noted a driver did the same thing briefly,making contact with his horses leg once in the final straight.

no action,no warning. Just a note that it was accidental.

like with many indiscretions for the same thing,they have many different outcomes depending on the circumstances

Are debating guilty of an offence or the penalty that was given?

Moran is guilty of an offence under the harness racing rules.

You seem to be suggesting he gets a slap with a soggy race book!

[the galah]

10 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Don't know why they have to overturn it ? just because you don't agree with it.

interesting interpretation of what i said.

I thought i have been consistently saying that there is a reasonable possibilty that Moran will be found Not Guilty,most likely on appeal,If he is charged with doing what he is alleged to have done.

And i say that because of the precedent out of queensland,heard in september 2024 involving hocking.

Gatton,race 6 -25 august. Mathew neilsen puts his foot down with 40m to go and it strikes the hocks of the horse he was driving 3 times and it gets up to win by a nose.In that casse the stipes used another rule,which allowed then to relegate(not disqualify) the horse to 2nd and gave neilsen a suspension. neilsen appealed and his case was overturned on appeal and he was found not guilty.

One assumes queenslands australian harness rules are the same as victorias australian harness rules.

Then i said,the 2 other most high profile cases of this type of incident ,did not result in disqualification on the night. Punteres were paid as they crossed the line,the drivers subsequently charged ,found guilty at a later date and then the horse was disqualified.

I noted in all 3 cases,the actions of the drivers were clearly hocking.

I suggested someone put the videos up as i don't know how to and then inferred anyone watching the videos would see Morans placement of his foot in the shepparton cup was nothing like what occured in the 3 other cases.

and i raised the possiblity of the owners of captain hammerhead trying to get the decision to disqualify overturned,should Moran be found not guilty,which as i said is a possibilty based on the case at gatton.

Hop that clarifies that for you.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

I thought i have been consistently saying that there is a reasonable possibilty that Moran will be found Not Guilty,most likely on appeal,If he is charged with doing what he is alleged to have done.

Fair enough. we get that. But that's the same for every Steward and court case going. Someone is 'always trying to compare' to previous similar incidents to try and get a similar outcome.  on appeal .  

What Chief and I are saying is Stewards an Offence was committed, a penalty applied by the stewards on duty . Professionals at this job with years of experience.  alas the penalty was pretty harsh . 

1 hour ago, the galah said:

One assumes queenslands australian harness rules are the same as victorias australian harness rules.

Yes .and as mentioned I have known drivers to be fined for dropping a leg . usually late on in a race to get better whip contact as the Brodster observed. This Moran case Does Not Appear to be ''Hocking' to me. He wasn't trying to hit the horses leg with his boot . The Horses leg was thundering into him instead.  I would of just fined him as the horse won convincingly and a DQ is harsh. but rule's need to be enforced or 'Anarchy ' reigns supreme 🤣😂

But like a 'head high shot'  at the footy , there's always debate about 'deliberateness' v accidentalness and penalties vary from one week to 3 weeks. It's just an interpretation by the officials . same as Stewards. or even in the Law courts. 

Penalized person just has to suck it  Up and get on with it. 😉 Moran deciding to bypass Ballarat Cup now though, when could of got the Ultimate 'make up for it's for the punters and horse connections. His Loss of opportunity for redemption. 

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Fair enough. we get that. But that's the same for every Steward and court case going. Someone is 'always trying to compare' to previous similar incidents to try and get a similar outcome.  on appeal .  

What Chief and I are saying is Stewards an Offence was committed, a penalty applied by the stewards on duty . Professionals at this job with years of experience.  alas the penalty was pretty harsh . 

Yes .and as mentioned I have known drivers to be fined for dropping a leg . usually late on in a race to get better whip contact as the Brodster observed. This Moran case Does Not Appear to be ''Hocking' to me. He wasn't trying to hit the horses leg with his boot . The Horses leg was thundering into him instead.  I would of just fined him as the horse won convincingly and a DQ is harsh. but rule's need to be enforced or 'Anarchy ' reigns supreme 🤣😂

But like a 'head high shot'  at the footy , there's always debate about 'deliberateness' v accidentalness and penalties vary from one week to 3 weeks. It's just an interpretation by the officials . same as Stewards. or even in the Law courts. 

Penalized person just has to suck it  Up and get on with it. 😉 Moran deciding to bypass Ballarat Cup now though, when could of got the Ultimate 'make up for it's for the punters and horse connections. His Loss of opportunity for redemption. 

i think thats a very fair assessment.

The only bit i don't agree with is

5 hours ago, Gammalite said:

 

Penalized person just has to suck it  Up and get on with it. 😉 Moran deciding to bypass Ballarat Cup now though, when could of got the Ultimate 'make up for it's for the punters and horse connections. His Loss of opportunity for redemption. 

i don't think anyone should suck it up without a fight if they think they have been unfairly treated.

And clearly moran and the owners ,(as well as many punters) think they have been unfairly treated.

They have to defend the case. They have to appeal as well. It will be stressful for them,but given their perceived unfair treatment,they will be  disillusioned. So  who can blame them for,in the moment,saying stuff this i don't want to take the horse to the races this week when i'm feeling like this.

Them not starting this week shows thats exactly how they are feeling.

Also,i believe that decision will forever taint Morans and his owners,respect for the stipes.

Thats what happens when people feel strongly about being wronged.

That lack of respect can come from one instant like we are discussing,or it can come from an accumulation of smaller incidents over time. Either way,respect will be gone.

sadly whats playing out is all so predictable given the circumstances and in my opinion, shouldn't have happened.

 

Edited yesterday at 02:17 AM by the galah

[Gammalite]

40 minutes ago, the galah said:

Also,i believe that decision will forever taint Morans and his owners,respect for the stipes.

Thats what happens when people feel strongly about being wronged.

That lack of respect can come from one instant like we are discussing,or it can come from an accumulation of smaller incidents over time. Either way,respect will be gone.

Only have to see forums to see lack of respect for Stipes , starters, clubs , Handicappers anyone at all trying to help run the show 🤣😉. The Galah being a fair bloke (and myself)  one of the few happy to see investigations happen (like Inca)  to keep them all on the straight and narrow .  Inca was difficult because it had massive Police involvement,  as race fixing is a criminal charge and very complicated. (It's not just a racing sanction) so they got all tangled up like a bad beginner from a stand lol. 😂

You only have to look at the general lack of respect for the Police in society. (and umpires and referees in a lot of different sport) and it's seeming almost part of human nature ?. ( To argue against authority)  and Penalties given against. 

Some people get off light ?. What about Dunn's with the the DQ of 4  horses in 2017 for Caffiene. Got off VERY light with just a fine , then did what you said and 'Appealed' and even got the fines reduced !! 🙄😳. I say that's the error and just BS 😅 . There should be penalties given for offences and the perpetrators should Suck It Up 😂🤣.  I hate Prison Parole lol. Once sentenced = Do your Time 👍 

[Blackie]

Guilty as charged.

[the galah]

actually i just googled the hrnz rule and while there have been many rule breachs over the years,the first one to pop up to search was a meeting in 2017.

That day both Gerard O'reilly and Leo O'reilly both drove "for an extendfed period ",with a leg dropped  in the home straight.

Both got a $100 fine.

I had a quick look at the video and neither was hocking,both i assume just lost their footing and had their foot about where Moran had his.They had it for about 4-5 strides whereas moran had it for 9. 

I don't remember at the time any outcry as to foul driving or cheating.

 

[Blackie]

Hi Galah

Only have to look at the marks on his white trousers to see what he was up too, hock, ankle, foot, don’t matter, Neddy will get a fright and keep kicking.

Edited 5 hours ago by Blackie

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Blackie said:

Hi Galah

Only have to look at the marks on his white trousers to see what he was up too, hock, ankle, foot, don’t matter, Neddy will get a fright and keep kicking.

Yes,the only question is was it accidental.

While theres lots of examples,I've given a couple of examples of the same thing happening with both the o'reilly brothers on the same day in the home straight at methven.

Why do we assume hes doing it deliberately to give his horse a fright and run faster?

And why do we assume, its accidental when other drivers drop a leg and hold it in the same position in the home straight?

I'm simply saying,on the video evidence i wouldn't condemn him based on the level of proof.

And i've even given an example in australia,where just 3 months ago the driver got off on appeal,when his foot made contact with the horses hock 3 times in a very close finish.

If i was a betting man,i would say he will get off this case,most likely on appeal.Then the owners will sue for the stake and reputation impugned ,if possible some punters may as well.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

Why do we assume hes doing it deliberately to give his horse a fright and run faster?

And why do we assume, its accidental when other drivers drop a leg and hold it in the same position in the home straight?

you want to win the race ?

As Brodster pointed out it helps with more vigorous driving too. They were driving pretty hard in this race. 

They sit a whole lot stiller in NZ races and try and just time their run at the line with a big finish half the time ?  A lot of Auckland races seem like that anyway 🤔. 

As I mentioned another time (like in the Interdominion recently ) the Aussies give it full gas the second last quarter a lot these days in feature races , in LEAP TO FAME style, and just try to keep momentum up the last bit , and it's Often NOT the fastest quarter these days in the run home.  

But don't worry Mr Galah. The connections of Kanena Provlima are on Your side , which is nice,  and have given the Drive on the horse to DAVID MORAN this week 🤣,  In the Big 100k Ballarat Cup Sat night, as must of been feeling for him getting disqualified last week with that incident . 👍🏆 when they got promoted lol. 😁

All they need is some extra boot laces now , and when he jumps in the gig on Saturday just Tie his Boot to the Footrest !!😎  (just in case 😉 )  and All will Be well once again  , and he might get the Prize/win and keep it this week?