race 5 methven/victorian stipes.

[Gammalite]

14 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

How do you accidentally drop your foot from the foot rest and hit your horse with it?

exactly.

On 2/3/2025 at 4:29 PM, the galah said:

guess that would be consistency.

Only problem with that is ,using your policy,once a driver does drop a foot from the footrest,why would they keep trying, as they know they are guaranteed disqualified anyway.

and exactly what point in a race.and why.

Well it's Not a consistent thing Mr Galah. Every case is different , so therefore gets different penalties.

Here's a famous case from The Tasmanian Cup not that long ago . Very famous as the all clear was given , so Punters were paid , before the Foul driving was recognized lol 🤣

It Not only involves the dreaded kicking the horses legs but the dreaded Whip use rules as well.. The horse also shifted out in the home straight causing other drivers to protest. 

This Just Shows HOW HARD it is Mr Galah, to police the rules with what the drivers are doing in a race. (drivers on the roads are even worse lol 😅) . here's the extract with some interesting bits . Space>

Stewards Panel: Ray Murrihy, Steven Shinn (Advisor), Ben Plunkett (Advisor) Name: Rhys Nicholson Track/Race: Elwick - 2021 Ladbrokes Tasmania Cup Final – Race 7

Date: 13th March 2021

Rule no: AHRR 174 (1) Where a driver is found guilty of an offence under a rule contained in part 9 and the offence relates to the way in which the driver has driven or behaved or controlled or failed to control the driver’s horse at the start or during a race, the Stewards in relation to the race in which the offence occurred may give the driver’s horse a lower placing or disqualify it for such period they think fit. (2) A disqualification under sub rule (1) or alteration of placings does not affect settlement of bets or wagers.

Inquiry Decision: BULLYS DELIGHT is relegated from its first (1st) placing to fourteenth (14th) placing in the Ladbroke’s Tasmanian Pacing Cup Final conducted at Ladbrokes Park, Elwick on the 13th March 2021. FACTS: On 13th March 2021, the horse BULLYS DELIGHT contested and finished in first placing in the $75,000 Ladbrokes Tasmania Cup Final (the Race) over 2579 metres, conducted at Ladbrokes Park, Elwick, Tasmania. BULLYS DELIGHT was a 6-year-old gelding bred and raced in partnership by Mr Jim Kefalas and Mr Phillip Winder. The horse was trained by Harness Racing Victoria (HRV) licensed trainer Mr John Nicholson and was driven by his son Mr Rhys Nicholson who is also a trainer/driver licensed by HRV. All parties under the Australian Harness Racing Rules (the Rules) and more specifically AHRR 299 are deemed to have knowledge of and are bound by the Rules.

Subsequent to the finish of the Race and before the declaration of the all-clear Mr Heath Woods driver of second placed THE SHALLOWS and Mr Conor Crook, driver of third placed LIP READER lodged protests against BULLYS DELIGHT being declared the winner on each of three grounds in the home straight, namely:

(1) Interference by BULLYS DELIGHT shifting out,

(2) Mr Rhys Nicholson dropping his right foot from the sulky stirrup and contacting the offside hind leg of BULLYS DELIGHT on numerous occasions (a practice known as hocking) and

(3) Mr Rhys R Nicholson utilising his whip on a large number of occasions with more than a wrist only flicking motion, generating force from his shoulder and elbow. The Stewards dismissed all protests when they found: • Ground (1) Although BULLYS DELIGHT shifted out some distance in the run to the line the interference was minimal. Taking into account the finishing margins of 4.6m x 6.4m they could not be satisfied that had the interference not occurred the placings would have been affected.

Grounds (2) & (3) Whilst finding that Mr Rhys Nicholson had “hocked” BULLYS DELIGHT on numerous occasions and had utilised his whip on numerous occasions outside what is prescribed under the Rules, they could not be comfortably satisfied that had this not occurred the placings would have changed. The all clear was given on the judge’s placings, however all parties were notified that an inquiry would be conducted as to whether AHRR 174(1) should be invoked.

Later that night and following the final race on the programme Mr Rhys Nicholson pleaded guilty to two Stewards charges concerning his driving or behaviour in the home straight on the final occasion in the Race namely:

• Charge (1): Under AHRR 168(1)(e) of improper driving in that he dropped his right foot from the sulky stirrup and deliberately made contact with the hind leg of BULLYS DELIGHT (hocking) on numerous occasions.

• Charge (2): Under AHRR156(2)(a) of utilising his whip with more than a wrist only flicking motion whilst engaging force from the elbow and shoulder as well as failing to maintain a rein in each hand.

Penalties: In determining the penalty Stewards took into account that the breaches occurred in a feature race, Mr Rhys Nicholson’s driving record and what they determined as his blatant disregard for the rules in both instances.

• Charge (1) $2,000 fine plus drivers licence suspension of 4 race dates.

• Charge (2) $1,000 fine plus drivers licence suspension of 8 race dates. No appeals have been lodged and the suspensions were ordered to be served cumulatively.

[the galah]

32 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

exactly.

Well it's Not a consistent thing Mr Galah. Every case is different , so therefore gets different penalties.

Here's a famous case from The Tasmanian Cup not that long ago . Very famous as the all clear was given , so Punters were paid , before the Foul driving was recognized lol 🤣

It Not only involves the dreaded kicking the horses legs but the dreaded Whip use rules as well.. The horse also shifted out in the home straight causing other drivers to protest. 

This Just Shows HOW HARD it is Mr Galah, to police the rules with what the drivers are doing in a race. (drivers on the roads are even worse lol 😅) . here's the extract with some interesting bits . Space>

Stewards Panel: Ray Murrihy, Steven Shinn (Advisor), Ben Plunkett (Advisor) Name: Rhys Nicholson Track/Race: Elwick - 2021 Ladbrokes Tasmania Cup Final – Race 7

Date: 13th March 2021

Rule no: AHRR 174 (1) Where a driver is found guilty of an offence under a rule contained in part 9 and the offence relates to the way in which the driver has driven or behaved or controlled or failed to control the driver’s horse at the start or during a race, the Stewards in relation to the race in which the offence occurred may give the driver’s horse a lower placing or disqualify it for such period they think fit. (2) A disqualification under sub rule (1) or alteration of placings does not affect settlement of bets or wagers.

Inquiry Decision: BULLYS DELIGHT is relegated from its first (1st) placing to fourteenth (14th) placing in the Ladbroke’s Tasmanian Pacing Cup Final conducted at Ladbrokes Park, Elwick on the 13th March 2021. FACTS: On 13th March 2021, the horse BULLYS DELIGHT contested and finished in first placing in the $75,000 Ladbrokes Tasmania Cup Final (the Race) over 2579 metres, conducted at Ladbrokes Park, Elwick, Tasmania. BULLYS DELIGHT was a 6-year-old gelding bred and raced in partnership by Mr Jim Kefalas and Mr Phillip Winder. The horse was trained by Harness Racing Victoria (HRV) licensed trainer Mr John Nicholson and was driven by his son Mr Rhys Nicholson who is also a trainer/driver licensed by HRV. All parties under the Australian Harness Racing Rules (the Rules) and more specifically AHRR 299 are deemed to have knowledge of and are bound by the Rules.

Subsequent to the finish of the Race and before the declaration of the all-clear Mr Heath Woods driver of second placed THE SHALLOWS and Mr Conor Crook, driver of third placed LIP READER lodged protests against BULLYS DELIGHT being declared the winner on each of three grounds in the home straight, namely:

(1) Interference by BULLYS DELIGHT shifting out,

(2) Mr Rhys Nicholson dropping his right foot from the sulky stirrup and contacting the offside hind leg of BULLYS DELIGHT on numerous occasions (a practice known as hocking) and

(3) Mr Rhys R Nicholson utilising his whip on a large number of occasions with more than a wrist only flicking motion, generating force from his shoulder and elbow. The Stewards dismissed all protests when they found: • Ground (1) Although BULLYS DELIGHT shifted out some distance in the run to the line the interference was minimal. Taking into account the finishing margins of 4.6m x 6.4m they could not be satisfied that had the interference not occurred the placings would have been affected.

Grounds (2) & (3) Whilst finding that Mr Rhys Nicholson had “hocked” BULLYS DELIGHT on numerous occasions and had utilised his whip on numerous occasions outside what is prescribed under the Rules, they could not be comfortably satisfied that had this not occurred the placings would have changed. The all clear was given on the judge’s placings, however all parties were notified that an inquiry would be conducted as to whether AHRR 174(1) should be invoked.

Later that night and following the final race on the programme Mr Rhys Nicholson pleaded guilty to two Stewards charges concerning his driving or behaviour in the home straight on the final occasion in the Race namely:

• Charge (1): Under AHRR 168(1)(e) of improper driving in that he dropped his right foot from the sulky stirrup and deliberately made contact with the hind leg of BULLYS DELIGHT (hocking) on numerous occasions.

• Charge (2): Under AHRR156(2)(a) of utilising his whip with more than a wrist only flicking motion whilst engaging force from the elbow and shoulder as well as failing to maintain a rein in each hand.

Penalties: In determining the penalty Stewards took into account that the breaches occurred in a feature race, Mr Rhys Nicholson’s driving record and what they determined as his blatant disregard for the rules in both instances.

• Charge (1) $2,000 fine plus drivers licence suspension of 4 race dates.

• Charge (2) $1,000 fine plus drivers licence suspension of 8 race dates. No appeals have been lodged and the suspensions were ordered to be served cumulatively.

I was saying the chiefs suggestion that you disqualify everyone,whether it be accidental or not ,would be a consistent outcome.

I was not agreeing with the chiefs suggestion,quite the opposite.

So yes gammalite ,i agree with your point that every case is different.

i actually referenced the tasmanian race you refer to and suggested someone put a video up of it to show an example of hocking.

i did that when i started the topic about the moran drive,on another thread, about 2 weeks ago.

If you saw the video of that,there is no way anyone could ever compare what moran did to what the tasmainain driver did.

i also have referenced the queensland race from last year and suggested that video be put up.

again that was an example of hocking ,but it could only be compared to the tasmanian driver in that he hocked for 3 strides,nothing anywhere near as bad as the tasmanian driver. And of course,as i've said several times now,that queensland driver got off on appeal ,despite it being acknowledged that he made contact 3 times.

you see the appeal judges found it may have been accidental. Just like at hawera at the weekend.

anyway,i did like the photos of the galahs you posted.

and i could see your little dogs face in the side mirror watching them. I enjoy seeing those type of posts. it reminds me of when we  had a wonderful wee dog. He was like a son in a lot of ways. keep up the good work.

Edited Wednesday at 06:59 AM by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

was saying the chiefs suggestion that you disqualify everyone,whether it be accidental or not ,would be a consistent outcome.

I was not agreeing with the chiefs suggestion,quite the opposite.

So yes gammalite ,i agree with your point that every case is different.

I was putting up a straw man because you were wanting consistency.  If you make the penalties fixed you get nothing but consistency.

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

you see the appeal judges found it may have been accidental. Just like at hawera at the weekend.

The Judges erred.  How can removing your foot from the footrest and letting you leg hang and hit a horse be accidental?  FFS why didn't they accidentally put it back immediately!

[the galah]

56 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Judges erred.  How can removing your foot from the footrest and letting you leg hang and hit a horse be accidental?  FFS why didn't they accidentally put it back immediately!

next time you see  alan pyers or wilson house  ,ask them why it happened in the final  450m at hawera over the weekend.

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

next time you see  alan pyers or wilson house  ,ask them why it happened in the final  450m at hawera over the weekend.

Alan pyers ,It's a small world Galah as he was in Queensland for a bit going way back , the horses here were that slow he went home to Nz rather than put up with that ( in the 80's I think)  😆  I must got some drives on some of them after he went rather unfortunately . One horse from Nz Victory Chimes was the most ugly horse i've ever seen lol . pretty sure Alan won some races on it too , but they were going no-where near 2 minutes at that stage and were a lot of battlers rather than fast horses in QLD. times have changed. they're all fast now lol.  

I wouldn't go asking about driving grass tracks and keeping your foot in the footrests. 😆 driving on the grass is super rough and you're flat out staying on your seat sometimes . let alone keep your feet up . Alan and Wilson would be bouncing around as much as anyone else lol. bloody gallopers leaving hard foot holes in the turf lol 🤣

[the galah]

i see peter profit has a photo of swayzees driver,cam hart,with his foot not in the footrest when winning the hunter cup.

Hart has his foot further down the structure of the cart.

In fact you can see from the video of the race,that harts foot seems to move around 4 or 5 times around the vicinity of the horses hocks.

Hard to tell whether  any contact is made,but going by the assumptions the victorain stipes made about moran,then i think mr profit has a good point ,when he asks why didn't the victorian stipes pick that up and have an inquiry.

it actually looks like its something hart may do a bit as he appeared to do the same thing in his latest nz cup win.He didn't do it in his 2023 cup win.

maybe theres nothing to it,or maybe mr hart is just a bit more cunning than mr moran.

 

Edited 18 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

it actually looks like its something hart may do a bit as he appeared to dio the same thing in his latest nz cup win.He didn't do it in his 2023 cup win.

maybe theres nothing to it,or maybe mr hart is just a bit more cunning than mr moran.

One of the elite drivers going , and now you're onto him ? lol . He (Cam Hart) is on a par with Greg Sugars and Luke McCarthy.

The Carts only have a ONE WIRE strand these days to accommodate the drivers boot . Rather than the Dog Muzzle like set-up they used to have. It is Hard to keep your foot up there .

I'm NOT surprised at the amount of dropped feet actually. It must be Very Uncomfortable.

Cam Hart , being an Extremely Fair and Good driver does Not deserve Discredit . Is No surprise the Low Harness racing Hating PProfit would find something to Slander. 

Don't Buy into anything that idiot says Mr Galah. Cam Hart has his foot hooked into the wheel stay , (as seen in this Hunter Cup Photo)  and his foot is Therefore even further from the horses legs than what the footrests bar is. .He drives like this nearly all the time. He is a champion driver and bloke . don't hint at cheating as is not fair comment.

 

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

One of the elite drivers going , and now you're onto him ? lol . He (Cam Hart) is on a par with Greg Sugars and Luke McCarthy.

The Carts only have a ONE WIRE strand these days to accommodate the drivers boot . Rather than the Dog Muzzle like set-up they used to have. It is Hard to keep your foot up there .

I'm NOT surprised at the amount of dropped feet actually. It must be Very Uncomfortable.

Cam Hart , being an Extremely Fair and Good driver does Not deserve Discredit . Is No surprise the Low Harness racing Hating PProfit would find something to Slander. 

Don't Buy into anything that idiot says Mr Galah. Cam Hart has his foot hooked into the wheel stay , (as seen in this Hunter Cup Photo)  and his foot is Therefore even further from the horses legs than what the footrests bar is. .He drives like this nearly all the time. He is a champion driver and bloke . don't hint at cheating as is not fair comment.

 

so it sounds like your agreeing that he doesn't have his foot in the footrest?

hard not to agree with mr profit when the picture shows he doesn't.And he did move it around,no denying that from the video. 

mr profit is stating a fact.He had a blown up picture of where harts foot is.

Personally i think the position of harts foot looks a bit odd,but i couldn't care less what hes up to as nothings obvious to me other than his foot isn't in the footrest like the rules say it should be.

But ,i believe the photo of what hart did and the inaction of the stewards  strengthens the  argument i have been making all along.

That is, the double standards of the application of the rules by the victorian stewards and the can of worms they opened by the precedent set ,when handing down the penalty for morans horse.

and of course ive pointed out that drivers can unintentionally and intentionally drop their feet from footrests.

anyway,from your post above,it sounds like your agreeing with most of that.

i did note back at the start of the moran thread,that you said it was a possibilty that moran dropped his foot when becoming unbalanced when driving his horse with the whip.

also,i don't think mr profits an idiot at all. His publications are more like  tabloid racing stories,or racing gossip columns.. Some are very accurate and informative,but others are just opinions and you can agree or disagree with him if you like.he has his detractors for sure, but I think hes a clever man the way he has built up his business.Thing is,he may not always be accurate when expressing his opinions,but there is enough overall truth and good instincts to give him credibility with many.

Edited 14 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

so it sounds like your agreeing that he doesn't have his foot in the footrest?

hard not to agree with mr profit when the picture shows he doesn't.And he did move it around,no denying that from the video. 

mr profit is stating a fact.He had a blown up picture of where harts foot is.

Personally i think the position of harts foot looks a bit odd,but i couldn't care less what hes up to as nothings obvious to me other than his foot isn't in the footrest like the rules say it should be.

But ,i believe the photo of what hart did and the inaction of the stewards  strengthens the  argument i have been making all along.

That is, the double standards of the application of the rules by the victorian stewards and the can of worms they opened by the precedent set ,when handing down the penalty for morans horse.

and of course ive pointed out that drivers can unintentionally and intentionally drop their feet from footrests.

anyway,from your post above,it sounds like your agreeing with most of that.

i did note back at the start of the moran thread,that you said it was a possibilty that moran dropped his foot when becoming unbalanced when driving his horse with the whip.

also,i don't think mr profits an idiot at all. His publications are more like  tabloid racing stories,or racing gossip columns.. Some are very accurate and informative,but others are just opinions and you can agree or disagree with him if you like.he has his detractors for sure, but I think hes a clever man the way he has built up his business.Thing is,he may not always be accurate when expressing his opinions,but there is enough overall truth and good instincts to give him credibility with many.

You often try to support Profit but then suggest it's tabloid. darn right. the guy is looking for Anything to discredit anyone in the sport. The amount of good people he continues to discredit is sickening. Don't buy into his crap mate. Chief knows. he's a budding journalist and has discouraged you many times from that BS from the guy that had to leave your country to try and continue his crusade against racing. sad as sad can be.

Anyway lots of drivers , feet leave the footrests , as stated for balance at the start of a race , people see this all the time , To Engage the Deafeners ( you know what I mean . to pull them out they do with foot) we used to do by hand. 

yes the bit about the whip driving. Brodster noticed. It's true a driver could be very vigorous and drop a foot. But has to put it back up.

The critical factor is = Moran (and the Tassie guy Nicholson) MADE CONTACT with the horse legs that was proven, so that meant those horses were disqualified from the race.

Cam Harts Foot sitting on a wheel stay ? no where near the horses legs. Who cares ?? The wheel stay is right beside the Footrest. who's to say some part of his boot is not touching the footrest in that photo ? . The wheel stay might be part of the footrests on these carts? .  What could you possibly Charge him with ? having a bad sulky' design ?? lol . ( BTW in IMO I think their design sucks lol  😁 )  here's one

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, Gammalite said:

One of the elite drivers going , and now you're onto him ? lol . He (Cam Hart) is on a par with Greg Sugars and Luke McCarthy.

The Carts only have a ONE WIRE strand these days to accommodate the drivers boot . Rather than the Dog Muzzle like set-up they used to have. It is Hard to keep your foot up there .

I'm NOT surprised at the amount of dropped feet actually. It must be Very Uncomfortable.

Cam Hart , being an Extremely Fair and Good driver does Not deserve Discredit . Is No surprise the Low Harness racing Hating PProfit would find something to Slander. 

Don't Buy into anything that idiot says Mr Galah. Cam Hart has his foot hooked into the wheel stay , (as seen in this Hunter Cup Photo)  and his foot is Therefore even further from the horses legs than what the footrests bar is. .He drives like this nearly all the time. He is a champion driver and bloke . don't hint at cheating as is not fair comment.

 

Agreed.  @Archie Butterfly used the same photo for his BS story.

Hart's foot is clearly wedged into the sulky stay.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, the galah said:

also,i don't think mr profits an idiot at all. His publications are more like  tabloid racing stories,or racing gossip columns.. Some are very accurate and informative,but others are just opinions and you can agree or disagree with him if you like.he has his detractors for sure, but I think hes a clever man the way he has built up his business.Thing is,he may not always be accurate when expressing his opinions,but there is enough overall truth and good instincts to give him credibility with many.

@Archie Butterfly aka Peter Profit is a bottom feeder sifting through the detritus looking for tasty titbits of dirt to turn into stories that the negative gullibles get off on.

Very few of his "stories" are accurate.

He is about due to start posting some obscurely labelled ampoules or tiny jars of some substance as the latest Go-Fast.  A subject he has written many hit pieces on but has failed to hit a target.

On that subject @the galah I have some interesting information from the USA that supports my contention that the USA equine drug testing regime is not fit for purpose and is archaic.  A recent article I read supports what I have said for a long time that the technology is available to test for anything even when you don't know what you are looking for.  Industries in New Zealand have been doing that for years.

@Archie Butterfly isn't that bright and sells snakeoil in the form of gossip.  

 

[the galah]

8 hours ago, Gammalite said:

You often try to support Profit but then suggest it's tabloid. darn right. the guy is looking for Anything to discredit anyone in the sport. The amount of good people he continues to discredit is sickening. Don't buy into his crap mate. Chief knows. he's a budding journalist and has discouraged you many times from that BS from the guy that had to leave your country to try and continue his crusade against racing. sad as sad can be.

Anyway lots of drivers , feet leave the footrests , as stated for balance at the start of a race , people see this all the time , To Engage the Deafeners ( you know what I mean . to pull them out they do with foot) we used to do by hand. 

yes the bit about the whip driving. Brodster noticed. It's true a driver could be very vigorous and drop a foot. But has to put it back up.

The critical factor is = Moran (and the Tassie guy Nicholson) MADE CONTACT with the horse legs that was proven, so that meant those horses were disqualified from the race.

Cam Harts Foot sitting on a wheel stay ? no where near the horses legs. Who cares ?? The wheel stay is right beside the Footrest. who's to say some part of his boot is not touching the footrest in that photo ? . The wheel stay might be part of the footrests on these carts? .  What could you possibly Charge him with ? having a bad sulky' design ?? lol . ( BTW in IMO I think their design sucks lol  😁 )  here's one

many,many times mr profit has written factual stories about both australian and nz harness racing, which you never get from the rose tinted nz/australian  harness media.

examples like ...whats happening at the auckland trotting club,whats happening with the yoles in tasmania, stories about integrity issues where he reveals evidence given at hearings,etc,etc .

His opinion pieces he states are just that,but reality is he has a knack for writing about current discussion topics and personalities,which reflects he has many sources who are tapped into the latest gossip.

his factual stories are facts and his opinion stories are opinions.

i don't know why people get upset about what he says,as reality is,why do they care what he says when they don't value his opinion.

he is media,and look around,media everywhere is rubbishing politicians,religious groups,conservative values,etc,etc. 

As to you suggesting theres nothing wrong with cam hart putting his feet where do does sometimes.

Well,to me its a good example of the type of thinking ,where one rule for him and another for everyone else.

Just because hes a super talented driver does not mean he should get special dispensation.

As i've sdaid before,your comparing moran to the tasmanian race is like comparing chalk and cheese. And like i have said before,horses have  not always been disqualified ,in fact its very rare and i have given examples of different outcomes..

Edited 2 hours ago by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

25 minutes ago, the galah said:

i don't know why people get upset about what he says,as reality is,why do they care what he says when they don't value his opinion.

Because @Archie Butterflydefames and slanders decent people behind a paywall.  Not the Yoles of this world which the mainstream media have done a better job in than @Archie Butterfly.

Obviously you are a subscriber @the galah - may I suggest you instead put your subscription into your TAB account where you have a chance of making a profit or at worst we all win from it!

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

As to you suggesting theres nothing wrong with cam hart putting his feet where do does sometimes.

Well,to me its a good example of the type of thinking ,where one rule for him and another for everyone else.

Come on @the galah Harts foot is firmly wedged into the cart.  Moran's foot was dangling below the cart and he hit his horses leg with it.

It isn't one rule for one and another for anyone else - Hart is adhering to the intent of the law Moran's wasn't.

BTW how is your remedial work on the NZ road code going?