This season 3yo Form

[Huey]

Can we take any of the 3yo form seriously comparing it to previous seasons given the lack of depth seen in the classic races because of the NZB Kiwi race, to date and the domination of a couple of horses in their respective grades potentially being because of the lack of depth caused by the concentration on the NZB Kiwi?

[Doomed]

1 minute ago, Huey said:

Can we take any of the 3yo form seriously comparing it to previous seasons given the lack of depth seen in the classic races because of the NZB Kiwi race, to date and the domination of a couple of horses in their respective grades potentially being because of the lack of depth caused by the concentration on the NZB Kiwi?

I think Savaglee is obviously a good type. Group 1 winner here, placed at WFA in a group 1 here, which our 3yos seldom do, and runner up in a major Australia Group 1. That CD filly is obviously very good, admittedly not beating much. And the northern sprinting filly is obviously good, just beaten in the Railway. Who knows how good the southern filly might be. This weekend will tell the story.

We probably do need a dominant Derby winner to help the claims of the staying males.

The novelty races obviously make it hard to assess the quality of the crop.

[Freda]

IMO  it isn't so much the Kiwi, but rather the effects of poor programming, dates, handicapping,etc,etc,  that have for a more than a few years now facilitated - forced, even - the drain of nice horses across the ditch and elsewhere.

The lack of depth is just highlighted more than is usual. That's all.  Again, JMO.

[Doomed]

29 minutes ago, Freda said:

IMO  it isn't so much the Kiwi, but rather the effects of poor programming, dates, handicapping,etc,etc,  that have for a more than a few years now facilitated - forced, even - the drain of nice horses across the ditch and elsewhere.

The lack of depth is just highlighted more than is usual. That's all.  Again, JMO.

A treasured opinion Freda.

In my opinion this Saturday is a total disaster, jamming so many feature races onto one day and forcing horses to pick and choose which race to start in, thereby weakening the quality of all of the races. Might be a few black type races on warnings after this weekend.

But as I say, that is just my opinion. I know heaps of people think it's the best thing that has ever happened to NZ Racing.

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, Doomed said:

In my opinion this Saturday is a total disaster, jamming so many feature races onto one day and forcing horses to pick and choose which race to start in, thereby weakening the quality of all of the races. Might be a few black type races on warnings after this weekend.

I can't see how it is a "total disaster".

Which horses were forced to choose what race to start in?  I don't see any of the NZB Kiwi starters running the Derby distance.

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Might be a few black type races on warnings after this weekend.

Some of them should be already.  The Auckland Cup is already on alert.

 

[Huey]

13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I can't see how it is a "total disaster".

Which horses were forced to choose what race to start in?  I don't see any of the NZB Kiwi starters running the Derby distance.

If they are expecting to get a good mile in the Kiwi you'd expect they'd have thought about the Derby had the Kiwi not been an option . Plenty with Derby type pedigree in it also.

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Huey said:

If they are expecting to get a good mile in the Kiwi you'd expect they'd have thought about the Derby had the Kiwi not been an option . Plenty with Derby type pedigree in it also.

The Kiwi is 1500m.  They might have the pedigree but I doubt many of them would get 2400m nor want to.

[Huey]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Kiwi is 1500m.  They might have the pedigree but I doubt many of them would get 2400m nor want to.

That's the point ,they don't have to because of the alternative. 

[Doomed]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The Kiwi is 1500m.  They might have the pedigree but I doubt many of them would get 2400m nor want to.

Lots of Derby and Oaks winners don't really "get" 2,400m.

[Freda]

No.  That's right,  Snap is one who comes to mind.  Oaks winner but by sprinter Schweppeshire Lad and never got further than 1400 [ I think ] as an older horse.

Class is what makes a classic 3 y o.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Huey said:

That's the point ,they don't have to because of the alternative. 

 

19 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Lots of Derby and Oaks winners don't really "get" 2,400m.

Great then that there is an alternative.  Who really wants a horse that gets 2400m?  

[Chief Stipe]

I don't like the NZB Kiwi because it's a Slot Race.

But the issues with 3yr old availability and class are fundamental issues that the NZB Kiwi has little to no effect on.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I can't see how it is a "total disaster".

Which horses were forced to choose what race to start in?  I don't see any of the NZB Kiwi starters running the Derby distance.

How long have you got Chief.

If the various races had been configured differently and spread over a couple of weekends as they do for Cup Week in Chch and Melbourne there are all sorts of different permutations. A decent 3yo could have contested the Bonecrusher on day one and moved onto the Derby. A 3yo filly could have moved from its race onto the Derby. A slot horse could have moved to the Derby.

A 1,600m f/m could have moved from the mile to the bonecrusher if they were in that order. An Auckland Cup horse could have used the Bonecrusher as a lead up. 

There are numerous possibilities if they had gone with the traditional carnival approach. I know they have tried the carnival approach in the past with the Cup on the middle day without great success, but that was more down to public apathy rather than horse problems.

What I am saying is that numerous horses have had to decide which group race they will contest when in an ideal world they might have liked to contest two of the races if they had been on separate days. That dilutes the quality of each of the races.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Doomed said:

A 3yo filly could have moved from its race onto the Derby

Can still aim for the Oaks.  Although it will be aid to the beat the current favourite for that race.

22 minutes ago, Doomed said:

What I am saying is that numerous horses have had to decide which group race they will contest when in an ideal world they might have liked to contest two of the races if they had been on separate days. That dilutes the quality of each of the races.

But you haven't named one horse of the "numerous"!

I don't see any.  

 

[curious]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 Who really wants a horse that gets 2400m?  

I'd love one despite the lack of opportunities. That's the dream. Working on it on a number of fronts. The ultimate breeding and conditioning challenge. A Castletown or Kiwi.

Edited 20 hours ago by curious

[Doomed]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Can still aim for the Oaks.  Although it will be aid to the beat the current favourite for that race.

But you haven't named one horse of the "numerous"!

I don't see any.  

 

Seriously? You can't think of a single horse that might have raced twice if the races were split?

[Doomed]

I don't have time to go into any depth, but a really quick glance tells me that the likes of Legarto, Campionessa, Provence, Acquarello, La Crique, Orchestral and others may have gone around twice if the F/M mile and bonecrusher were split. Wolfgang might have raced in the Cup if it was a week after the bonecrusher. Some 3yos might have gone around twice as well, but I don't have the time or inclination to consider that in any depth.

It would be a brave man who confidently stated that not a single horse would have liked to race in two of the races if they were split a week apart.

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, curious said:

I'd love one despite the lack of opportunities. That's the dream. Working on it on a number of fronts. The ultimate breeding and conditioning challenge. A Castletown or Kiwi.

Isn't where the money is though.  Plus limited opportunities and you can only win very few of them unless you have a Makybe Diva.

[Chief Stipe]

38 minutes ago, Doomed said:

It would be a brave man who confidently stated that not a single horse would have liked to race in two of the races if they were split a week apart.

How many of them back up in a week nowadays?

Let alone the elephant in the room of backing up on the Ellerslie track!!

[curious]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Isn't where the money is though.  Plus limited opportunities and you can only win very few of them unless you have a Makybe Diva.

Did I mention money as an objective? If you race horses for that, then you will most likely be disappointed and the factors you mention above, while true, also limit competition in that  area.

[Huey]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Great then that there is an alternative.  Who really wants a horse that gets 2400m?  

A derby or oaks winner ? Yes please!

[Freda]

14 hours ago, curious said:

I'd love one despite the lack of opportunities. That's the dream. Working on it on a number of fronts. The ultimate breeding and conditioning challenge. A Castletown or Kiwi.

So would I.

Isn't it sad that a country whose racing and breeding successes rested on the quality of its middle-distance -and further - performers now has its sales series' chock full of speedy Australian breds.

As Chief says,  that's where the money is.

But it's a real shame to see the staying horse become less and less relevant,  and with it, the ability of NZ trainers to condition such horses.

I recall, quite a few years ago, watching The Ford Report,  hosted by Adrian Clark and featuring Patrick Hogan ( wasn't a Sir then ).

Discussing breeding,  trends, and so on...Patrick said, I wouldn't want to be a young stud master now.  Those staying horses, not what we need,  this is the sort of horse NZ should be getting into - waving his hand at a stallion being paraded as he spoke.

That horse was One Cool Cat.  

The selection of second-rate sprinter milers that followed did SFA for our racing and breeding,  and set in motion the influx into Australia of the less-than-top end European horses that were, in the main, way better than anything local.  

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, Huey said:

A derby or oaks winner ? Yes please!

Really?  You'd rather be mowing your lawns.  But you'd spend a zillion dollars causing the dream of winning an Oaks or a Derby.

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, curious said:

Did I mention money as an objective? If you race horses for that, then you will most likely be disappointed and the factors you mention above, while true, also limit competition in that  area.

Sure but your pocket will be disappointed a lot less.