Ellerslie

[JMO]

Just now, JMO said:

 

Kate definitley held back criticism in her interview. The track completley broke up after being verti-drained. Once you have used this force, you weaken the core ground beneath. Yes the water drains, so we race on, but the horses that got in behind were at a significant disadvantage. I share in the ownership of a horse in a early sprint race. Came back blinkers full of sand and grass divots.  Who wants to run head first into stinging sand at 65km begs the question. Is the track really playing fair..

[JMO]

On 4/19/2025 at 6:18 PM, Wingman said:

It told us that it can now withstand a lot of rain and present a fair track

Wasn't fair, complete rubbish surface

[Wingman]

It was a soft track, clods were flying through the air, therefore  there will be splatter. Every horse that was capable of running a decent race on a soft track appeared to do just that. Bottom line a fair and safe autumn track. It may develop into a horses for courses track, that remains to be seen.

[curious]

11 hours ago, JMO said:

Wasn't fair, complete rubbish surface

Did the stipes see those blinkers JMO? I'd wonder how they could deem the track safe for racing, let alone fair, if the kickback was that bad.

[Special Agent]

21 hours ago, jess said:

It's like the Awapuni track - at first we heard a lot from the officials but I had been waiting more for those jump-outs & trials to see what the riders said.  They are in the best position to know how the surface played - how the horses went on it.  Oh & a bit less prone to spin 😝  

The rain will not be welcomed so close to Awapuni's return, certainly a test.

[Special Agent]

Sounds like sanitised comments are what we are going to get from now on.  That's not really the Kiwi way but, with these rules around commenting as licence holders, and jockeys and trainers wanting to retain a living, that will be the new normal.

[Chief Stipe]

23 hours ago, jess said:

I'm just always interested in what they say (or don't say  ) - because they're the ones who really know!  It's like the Awapuni track - at first we heard a lot from the officials but I had been waiting more for those jump-outs & trials to see what the riders said.  They are in the best position to know how the surface played - how the horses went on it.  Oh & a bit less prone to spin 😝  

There were at least two senior jockeys interviewed after the Awapuni trials and their comments were very complimentary.  As for jockeys being in the best position to comment.  They may well be but very few ever walk a track before riding it and often there assessment is not as accurate as you may think.

At best they may have an accurate opinion on how the trqcks feels while riding an individual horse but I cant see how they can have any accuarcy in opinions on how the track got to the condtition it may be in.  For example Kate Hercocks comments about the cause of the  Hawkes Bay Guineas Day abandonment last September were well off the mark.  Her observations didn't align with what I saw having walked the track both early in the morning and after the abandonement.  BTW I'm still trying to find out if horses galloped on the track proper in the morning as per the protocol.  

[jess]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

There were at least two senior jockeys interviewed after the Awapuni trials and their comments were very complimentary.  As for jockeys being in the best position to comment.  They may well be but very few ever walk a track before riding it and often there assessment is not as accurate as you may think.

At best they may have an accurate opinion on how the trqcks feels while riding an individual horse but I cant see how they can have any accuarcy in opinions on how the track got to the condtition it may be in.  For example Kate Hercocks comments about the cause of the  Hawkes Bay Guuneas Day abandonment last September were well off the mark.

Yep Chief - I'm not expecting jockeys to comment on "how the track for to the condition it may be in" - just their take on it as riders who are out there doing the business on it!  They've got way more idea than me sitting in my chair watching trackside.  No-one expects them to be agronomists or turf culture specialists.  Although for all I know - one or two of them may be ....

[Chief Stipe]

As for Ellerslie "playing fair" on Saturday I'm not so sure it did.  The fact is if you are not within 4 lengths of the leader turning for home then you don't win.  You also can't improve your position on the final bend and stay balanced - you can't really get moving until your horse has regained its balance on straightening.  There are three factors involved - one the shifty nature of the track (sliced and diced turf on a hard sand base), the horses can't get their hooves into the turf and the lack of camber of the last part of the turn.  The smart way home is tracking along the rail and praying for luck e.g. Damask Rose in the KiwiB. 

Doctor Askar was ridden positively and forward from its draw, nursed around the bend and wasn't let go until the straight.  Yes the second horse flew home from back wide out but it couldn't win - it needed to start moving before straightening to get closer but you can't do it on the track.

The big question is it may "play fair" for punters and it may offer a Soft 6 (Is it ever anything other than a Soft 5 or 6 regardless of the rainfall?) on a day that you would expect a softer track but is it "fair" to the horses?  In my opinion it isn't.  I don't believe it was designed to provide the best racing surface for a horse to gallop on safely.  It was designed to always be a Soft 5/6 (not sure we should be using those ratings) regardless of the amount of rainfall.  The design was totally focussed on that.  

Hence the extremely customised Strathayr.  Now I've never walked a Strathayr so a key reference point for me is missing.  But when I walked the new Ellerslie track I was very surprised.  The growing medium is pure sand - there is no other soil components e.g. loam in that that substrate.  So you have a substrate that compacts readily and is high draining with little water and negligible nutrient retention.  The initial problem that occurred in the first few meetings (the first Karaka Million meeting should have been abandoned like the next was) was the grass roots grew across the surface and to a shallow depth (10-15mm) in a dense mat.  They didn't grow to any real depth - why would they?  The roots didn't need to search for water and there was any retained at depth anyway!  Not surprising when you are watering and fertilising frequently.  Hence the slipping and the inability of the horses to get there hooves in to the top layer.  I'm sure many of you have seen over the years a dense root matt that you can barely pierce a knife through!  That was how Ellerslie presented in the first few moths.

So what was the solution?  The solution was to core the track in the first instance.  Well that worked to a degree but if you think about it you still have a continuum of root mat but just with evenly spaced holes that are then refilled with sand!  So the next method was to slice and dice the turf with tynes and verti-drain (suprising on a state of the art Strathayr).  Once they started doing this extensive mechanical work in the week leading up to raceday we no longer got a Good 4 track but a Soft 5.  

The downside to the mechanical work to get a Soft 5 is the top layer becomes shifty and loose and there is still a hard compact layer below.  Although I haven't seen the track after this work I have heard many reports from jockeys that the surface was shifty and their horses didn't feel comfortable on it.  So what @JMO has posted resonates with what I would guess is happening.

At the end of the day the Ellerslie track is an expensive near hydroponic turf growing system that is more akin to a synthetic track except it has grass growing on it.  But many will be slapping themselves on the back for being able to hold a meeting after 40mm of rain during the week and the surface "playing fair" to punters.

 

[jess]

1 hour ago, Special Agent said:

Sounds like sanitised comments are what we are going to get from now on.  That's not really the Kiwi way but, with these rules around commenting as licence holders, and jockeys and trainers wanting to retain a living, that will be the new normal.

Interesting SA - some jockeys will be more politic than others I guess - but surely nothing in the rules for licence holders precludes them from offering an opinion on how they felt the track rode?  If that was the case - the TAB presenters might as well stop asking them that inevitable question that they ask (especially early on in the card)- and opt for something less tricky/controversial - like -  what did you think of the rose gardens around the parade ring .....     

[jess]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

As for Ellerslie "playing fair" on Saturday I'm not so sure it did.  The fact is if you are not within 4 lengths of the leader turning for home then you don't win.  You also can't improve your position on the final bend and stay balanced - you can't really get moving until your horse has regained its balance on straightening.  There are three factors involved - one the shifty nature of the track (sliced and diced turf on a hard sand base), the horses can't get their hooves into the turf and the lack of camber of the last part of the turn.  The smart way home is tracking along the rail and praying for luck e.g. Damask Rose in the KiwiB. 

Doctor Askar was ridden positively and forward from its draw, nursed around the bend and wasn't let go until the straight.  Yes the second horse flew home from back wide out but it couldn't win - it needed to start moving before straightening to get closer but you can't do it on the track.

The big question is it may "play fair" for punters and it may offer a Soft 6 (Is it ever anything other than a Soft 5 or 6 regardless of the rainfall?) on a day that you would expect a softer track but is it "fair" to the horses?  In my opinion it isn't.  I don't believe it was designed to provide the best racing surface for a horse to gallop on safely.  It was designed to always be a Soft 5/6 (not sure we should be using those ratings) regardless of the amount of rainfall.  The design was totally focussed on that.  

Hence the extremely customised Strathayr.  Now I've never walked a Strathayr so a key reference point for me is missing.  But when I walked the new Ellerslie track I was very surprised.  The growing medium is pure sand - there is no other soil components e.g. loam in that that substrate.  So you have a substrate that compacts readily and is high draining with little water and negligible nutrient retention.  The initial problem that occurred in the first few meetings (the first Karaka Million meeting should have been abandoned like the next was) was the grass roots grew across the surface and to a shallow depth (10-15mm) in a dense mat.  They didn't grow to any real depth - why would they?  The roots didn't need to search for water and there was any retained at depth anyway!  Not surprising when you are watering and fertilising frequently.  Hence the slipping and the inability of the horses to get there hooves in to the top layer.  I'm sure many of you have seen over the years a dense root matt that you can barely pierce a knife through!  That was how Ellerslie presented in the first few moths.

So what was the solution?  The solution was to core the track in the first instance.  Well that worked to a degree but if you think about it you still have a continuum of root mat but just with evenly spaced holes that are then refilled with sand!  So the next method was to slice and dice the turf with tynes and verti-drain (suprising on a state of the art Strathayr).  Once they started doing this extensive mechanical work in the week leading up to raceday we no longer got a Good 4 track but a Soft 5.  

The downside to the mechanical work to get a Soft 5 is the top layer becomes shifty and loose and there is still a hard compact layer below.  Although I haven't seen the track after this work I have heard many reports from jockeys that the surface was shifty and their horses didn't feel comfortable on it.  So what @JMO has posted resonates with what I would guess is happening.

At the end of the day the Ellerslie track is an expensive near hydroponic turf growing system that is more akin to a synthetic track except it has grass growing on it.  But many will be slapping themselves on the back for being able to hold a meeting after 40mm of rain during the week and the surface "playing fair" to punters.

 

Thanks for that Chief - I've never walked it & I found that a very interesting & easy to understand description of that track.  Enlightening.  

Cheers, J. 

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, JMO said:

Wasn't fair, complete rubbish surface

Thanks for posting your pictures and I agree with your assessment.  Did you hear any comments from Jockeys regarding it being shifty and horses not wanting to go on it especially around the bend?

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, jess said:

Thanks for that Chief - I've never walked it & I found that a very interesting & easy to understand description of that track.  Enlightening.  

Cheers, J. 

Just my opinion @jess based on actual observation and my horticultural training.  I get a bit of kickback (or worse) for my opinion on this subject.  One recollection that sticks in my mind was when I was on the track between jumpouts which were being held to test it following the abandonment.  I was standing within earshot of the CEO Wilcox explaining to those around him what had been wrong and how now it was a lot better because the horses hooves were getting 10mm into the surface.  I saw some puzzled faces and I had a closer look.  

The hooves were going in a bit deeper but there didn't seem to be any shear i.e. the front part of the hoof was penetrating the surface but there was zero forward movement.  It didn't look right.  I don't know much about the mechanics of a horse galloping but I've read somewhere that the optimum safe surface is when a horses hoof can pierce the surface slide forward (shear?) and scoop out.  Perhaps you, @JMO, @Freda and @curious can comment.

 

[jess]

Well it's an opinion based on way more info than I have so appreciate your account.

It may become a track where there is a real pattern of racing that emerges - eg. crazy dash to get to the front early - whatever your draw. And it also may become quite horse-specific.  Shiftiness in a track can produce that IMO.  I had a big long striding horse a few years back - would gallop well on a range of going from goodish to heavy - but the one thing that would slow her down was a shifty track.  It was as if she lost confidence in that bold big long stride, if when her hooves struck the surface - she didn't know where they'd end up - because the ground was literally moving under her.   

[Freda]

43 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just my opinion @jess based on actual observation and my horticultural training.  I get a bit of kickback (or worse) for my opinion on this subject.  One recollection that sticks in my mind was when I was on the track between jumpouts which were being held to test it following the abandonment.  I was standing within earshot of the CEO Wilcox explaining to those around him what had been wrong and how now it was a lot better because the horses hooves were getting 10mm into the surface.  I saw some puzzled faces and I had a closer look.  

The hooves were going in a bit deeper but there didn't seem to be any shear i.e. the front part of the hoof was penetrating the surface but there was zero forward movement.  It didn't look right.  I don't know much about the mechanics of a horse galloping but I've read somewhere that the optimum safe surface is when a horses hoof can pierce the surface slide forward (shear?) and scoop out.  Perhaps you, @JMO, @Freda and @curious can comment.

 

Curious will be the one who has access to such information..but I have heard exactly that.  I dug up a slow-mo video of a galloping horse and that seemed to be pretty much what happened.

Interestingly - in a chat only yesterday with the very helpful and informative man from Aus, over to groom/harrow our polytrack - he also made reference to the need for the hoof to slide, and scoop for safe movement.

[Chief Stipe]

46 minutes ago, jess said:

Well it's an opinion based on way more info than I have so appreciate your account.

It may become a track where there is a real pattern of racing that emerges - eg. crazy dash to get to the front early - whatever your draw. And it also may become quite horse-specific.  Shiftiness in a track can produce that IMO.  I had a big long striding horse a few years back - would gallop well on a range of going from goodish to heavy - but the one thing that would slow her down was a shifty track.  It was as if she lost confidence in that bold big long stride, if when her hooves struck the surface - she didn't know where they'd end up - because the ground was literally moving under her.   

I know exactly what you mean.  I have a friend who I talked into buying their first horse.  As luck would have it the horse has turned out very good - multiple Group winner already.  However she has a very long stride and with a surprisingly high frequency.  She won't go on that bend because its shifting under her.  

Yes the only way to ride Ellerslie now is to push forward early - hold your horse together round the bend and hope you are within 4 lengths on balancing in the straight.  Or stick to the fence and hope you can get a run. 

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Freda said:

he also made reference to the need for the hoof to slide, and scoop for safe movement.

Yes I've heard that as well.  Which when you think of the mechanics of an equine gallop - the slide helps dissipate a lot of forces with the front legs and the scoop gives them a purchase to push forward.  Mind you I might have that all wrong.  But I have heard the shear part of the stride is important.  Excuse any misuse of terminology.

[curious]

52 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes the only way to ride Ellerslie now is to push forward early - hold your horse together round the bend and hope you are within 4 lengths on balancing in the straight.  Or stick to the fence and hope you can get a run. 

That may well be, as you suggest, partly due to the aeration and irrigation protocols that they have had to put in place due to the risk of it becoming slippery. Do you think that the sand kick back might also be a factor that is making it challenging for the back runners?

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

The hooves were going in a bit deeper but there didn't seem to be any shear i.e. the front part of the hoof was penetrating the surface but there was zero forward movement.  It didn't look right.  I don't know much about the mechanics of a horse galloping but I've read somewhere that the optimum safe surface is when a horses hoof can pierce the surface slide forward (shear?) and scoop out.  Perhaps you, @JMO, @Freda and @curious can comment.

There is plenty of literature related to galloping action and the importance of shear for both safety and performance. That's exactly one of the things that the Ky team engaged to assess our synthetics have developed specialty gear to measure and supposedly what they used here. I'm looking forward to seeing the report on that. It would seem relatively simple to get that testing done at Ellerslie to assess its shear related safety in various conditions.

[Chief Stipe]

50 minutes ago, curious said:

Do you think that the sand kick back might also be a factor that is making it challenging for the back runners?

Logic would say so.  Looking at @JMO 's photos the kickback must be really high.  I liken it to being on the beach and someone kicks sand in your face.  It isn't a very enjoyable experience and given the sensitivity of horses eyes I imagine they don't enjoy it either.  

[Chief Stipe]

45 minutes ago, curious said:

There is plenty of literature related to galloping action and the importance of shear for both safety and performance. That's exactly one of the things that the Ky team engaged to assess our synthetics have developed specialty gear to measure and supposedly what they used here. I'm looking forward to seeing the report on that. It would seem relatively simple to get that testing done at Ellerslie to assess its shear related safety in various conditions.

Yes I've been arguing that for months now much to the derision of some.  Why aren't they using a Going Stick at Ellerslie and publishing the results?  As for the AWT's I've never understood why they take the lazy option and don't measure the firmness and shear of the synthetics and publish those.  At the very least it would give track managers some data to show what works and what doesn't.  Ellerslie behaves like a AWT NOT a traditional turf track or for that matter a standard Strathayr.  Wilcox has as good as admitted that in press releases.

[Murray Fish]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

to being on the beach and someone kicks sand in your face.  It isn't a very enjoyable experience

Where's Charles Atlas when you need him!

ps. @TAB For Ever how would a collage boy deal with getting some sand kick their way! 🥸