All the Best Awapuni!

[Freda]

11 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Trainers are told these things all the time.  As Freda indicated, what you choose to do with that information is up to you.

One major change I can see with people over the years is how precious they have become.  Even those who have a very small stake, or none at all, can become quite hostile and personal.

 

That's all because of the lack of manners inherent these days.

At one time, disagreement - or constructive criticism - was NOT synonymous with abuse or nastiness.

Edited 14 hours ago by Freda

[Special Agent]

1 minute ago, jess said:

Special - not sure who you were hanging out with - but being on course - did you hear murmurings before Race 1?  Even the hosts were talking about nervousness ... seemed a little unconvinced ... Bevan when he talked about having walked out there said something about how it LOOKS good - with a bit of an emphasis on the "looks" part of the statement - which I wondered at the time whether he was implying it might look better than it actually was ...

Just interested because the NZTR Corporate Comms release said it was a real surprise what happened - but was it? 

The murmurings are weeks old Jess.

No one wanted to see another race meeting canned.  As I said earlier I think the decision to race the 2nd and 3rd legs of the HB triple crown at Awapuni should not have been announced prior to Anzac Day racing.  This is a bad look on the international stage, especially when raved up by the club and NZTR.  NZ racing folk are out of pocket and looking for alternatives which are thin on the ground.  The track surface should not have been put under pressure until many more trials had been held.

Despite what you read in the media, not every jockey and trackwork rider was completely happy with the surface at the latest trials and gallops.  Trainers opinions echoed those of the riders.  There are other industry participants close to the action who were adamant the race meeting would not run it's full course.  The underlying fact is that only the rosy comments were those heard and heeded by officialdom.

So, no it was not a surprise to stakeholders.  The atmosphere oncourse went from shock and disbelief that this could be happening again, to anger that it was.  I don't think there is any escaping the fact that errors have been made and someone needs to be held accountable.

[jess]

14 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

The murmurings are weeks old Jess.

No one wanted to see another race meeting canned.  As I said earlier I think the decision to race the 2nd and 3rd legs of the HB triple crown at Awapuni should not have been announced prior to Anzac Day racing.  This is a bad look on the international stage, especially when raved up by the club and NZTR.  NZ racing folk are out of pocket and looking for alternatives which are thin on the ground.  The track surface should not have been put under pressure until many more trials had been held.

Despite what you read in the media, not every jockey and trackwork rider was completely happy with the surface at the latest trials and gallops.  Trainers opinions echoed those of the riders.  There are other industry participants close to the action who were adamant the race meeting would not run it's full course.  The underlying fact is that only the rosy comments were those heard and heeded by officialdom.

So, no it was not a surprise to stakeholders.  The atmosphere oncourse went from shock and disbelief that this could be happening again, to anger that it was.  I don't think there is any escaping the fact that errors have been made and someone needs to be held accountable.

Thx Special.  That 100% accords with what I had heard from ppl much closer to the action there on a day to day basis than I am.

Yet the CEO said "I trust that, while understandably frustrated, all participants will continue to show respect towards the track staff and club management. A significant amount of effort, resources, and consultation from track management, consultants, and officials has gone into preparing the track for racing, and the recent setback was entirely unforeseen."  

Please note the last 2 words -  "entirely unforseen"

Either

1. You & I are making things up, Special about all this talk of track issues - or

2. Ppl have had concerns but no-one has spoken truth to power - or -

3. That press release yesterday is utterly disingenuous. 

You choose which ...    

[Special Agent]

49 minutes ago, jess said:

I'm glad we have moved on from criticisng what Kate (or any other jockey) said yesterday.  They picked her out to be interviewed (appropriate given what occurred, I'd have thought).  She can comment on what she wants - & ppl can take it or leave it.  As far as I'm concerned - the REAL issue is about what happened yesterday with that track - how we got here - and where we've going from here. 

Exactly, an appropriate interviewee.  Maybe Kate doesn't say the right things all the time.  How do you think she was feeling after that ride?  Unsafe, frustrated, light in the pocket ...

The fix might not be as difficult as you think.  The Awapuni track may very well be the best surface in CD, so it should be with the amount of investment, but not right now.  Forget about rushing to get racing on it again.  Keep trialling on it until the track is perfect no matter where the rail is.

I think the industry has dodged a bullet with only a slip.  Please learn from it.  I don't mean put words in a report, actually take action that reflects intelligence instead of arrogance.

[jess]

1 minute ago, Special Agent said:

Exactly, an appropriate interviewee.  Maybe Kate doesn't say the right things all the time.  How do you think she was feeling after that ride?  Unsafe, frustrated, light in the pocket ...

The fix might not be as difficult as you think.  The Awapuni track may very well be the best surface in CD, so it should be with the amount of investment, but not right now.  Forget about rushing to get racing on it again.  Keep trialling on it until the track is perfect no matter where the rail is.

I think the industry has dodged a bullet with only a slip.  Please learn from it.  I don't mean put words in a report, actually take action that reflects intelligence instead of arrogance.

Spot on.  Great point re Kate - straight with the camera + microphone in her face immediately after a race when her horse has nearly fallen on the turn.  I note the CEO of NZTR had the luxury of several hours & the services of the corporate comms team to craft his response .... and it was in writing (so no questions from the floor - control the narrative & all that ....)

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

@curious I've been thinking about the moisture reading that track managers now seem to be obliged to provide on a regular basis.  For some reason some aged neurons formed during my horticultural science days got me to thinking and revisiting some of the science of moisture reading and field capcity.  I've come to the conclusion that the moisture reading on its own as the measure of a track condition is a load of nonsense.  Even as a measure of the water content it is only relevant at the point in time it was taken - water is constantly draining or being added.  However the meter needs to be calibrated to the field capacity of the soil type.

Depending on how you measure it the field capacity of sand is 15 to 25% by volume (the % can change relative to the size of the sand grains) with a water holding capacity of 5% to 15%.  Applying these benchmarks and correlating the moisture readings then you could assume that Ellerslie is largely pure sand.

Awapuni has produced a higher moisture reading and was rated at a Good 4.  Why can't they give us penetrometer readings anymore?  Or find a more reliable repeatable multi-factor measurement tool for measuring a tracks firmness?  Would a Going Stick which measures firmness and shear be a better tool?  Would measuring shear have given an indication that the surface was unstable?

[westbrew]

There is an old saying, If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. 

The right thing for these people to do is to resign and allow people who are part of the solution to replace them. 

I am sick of the press releases that come out time after time after time, track infrastructure is the biggest problem the industry faces and what is the NZTR Board response, hire a CEO from Sky City with no background or even professional knowledge of anything to do with Racing Infrastructure. I don't blame the new CEO he has only been here 5 mins but the Board and by extension the members council need to take a darn good look at themselves in the mirror.   

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, jess said:

Spot on.  Great point re Kate - straight with the camera + microphone in her face immediately after a race when her horse has nearly fallen on the turn.

That's not correct.  She was interviewed quite a time after the abandonment.  Not only that she repeated what she had said the previous times she has been interviewed.  Her answer is to tell the track manager they should have irrigated more.  She hasn't said how much!  The track had had 17mm of water in the previous 7 days.  5mm in the 24 hours before raceday.  Should they have put the 30-40mm that Ellerslie need to put on their track in the days leading up to a meeting?

Hell just imagine the screaming from trainers not wanting a track that was too soft!

25 minutes ago, jess said:

I note the CEO of NZTR had the luxury of several hours & the services of the corporate comms team to craft his response .... and it was in writing (so no questions from the floor - control the narrative & all that ....)

In reality what is he going to say?  Just come out and bag Club Management and the Track Manger as well as the Track renovators?

The Manager of Awapuni was interviewed on Trackside WELL before Hercock and gave a guarded opinion about what happened and what was happening next.  You couldn't expect anything else.

As for the anecdotal negatrive reports from nameless trainers and Jockeys about the trials.  Well they don't seem to align with the trial videos nor the public comments of Jonathan Riddell, Leah Hemi and Kate Hercock herself.  To quote Hercock - "

First-time rider on the track, Kate Hercock, was equally impressed. “The track is lovely, it’s very consistent all over.”

[Huey]

57 minutes ago, westbrew said:

There is an old saying, If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. 

The right thing for these people to do is to resign and allow people who are part of the solution to replace them. 

I am sick of the press releases that come out time after time after time, track infrastructure is the biggest problem the industry faces and what is the NZTR Board response, hire a CEO from Sky City with no background or even professional knowledge of anything to do with Racing Infrastructure. I don't blame the new CEO he has only been here 5 mins but the Board and by extension the members council need to take a darn good look at themselves in the mirror.   

Never happen, easy money and no accountability add to that they don't give a s**t about the industry and they are happy to stay on a very good wicket indeed!

[Special Agent]

First-time rider on the track, Kate Hercock, was equally impressed. “The track is lovely, it’s very consistent all over.”

Well, that blows my info out the window.  If the riders can't tell it like it is every time and decide to tell the masses what they want to hear, they lose credibility when coming out at a later date with criticism.

"reports from nameless trainers and Jockeys about the trials."

It would be unfair to give names from conversations to have their words and character pulled to shreds on here.

 

 

[Special Agent]

Chief, some of us have said there were problems no one wanted to know about.  Now the disastrous cancellation of races has resulted you seem to be demeaning our comments and saying we shouldn't blame track management.

Who do you think should shoulder the blame then?

You asked what could the CEO have said?

The only decent thing to do is cancel a contract or two and then resign.

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Chief, some of us have said there were problems no one wanted to know about.  Now the disastrous cancellation of races has resulted you seem to be demeaning our comments and saying we shouldn't blame track management.

Fantastic so some of you are in "I told you so" mode.  I guess they have been saying it for the last 20 years that Awapuni has had problems?

23 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Who do you think should shoulder the blame then?

Those who let this gradual degradation of our tracks to happen over the last 20 plus years.  I don't blame the under resourced track managers over that time at all.  Where were these experts that you refer to demanding that tracks were maintained adequately?  How often do these trainers renovate their day paddocks?

25 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

You asked what could the CEO have said?

The only decent thing to do is cancel a contract or two and then resign.

That's reactive and only an incompetant CEO would have gone down that path without the full information being available.  To do otherwise could have opened a whole raft of litigation.

So you want blood - you want heads to roll of the very people that have attempted to fix the mess that took decades of neglect to occur.  Those calling for blood seem to have very short memories and conveniently forget the part they played.  

Remember the Awapuni meetings abandoned in 2010, 2015 (The Kevin Morton vs RIU Case), 2017 and others? 

Be greatful that finally they are trying to do something to fix the problems and spending nearly $6m to do it.

[Special Agent]

We are not in the told you so category.  You are just looking for a fight.  Stick up for track managers if you like.

You are talking bullshit about how useless you think trainers and jockeys are.  There are quite a few who maintain their own tracks, and properties.

Awapuni has been renovated quite a few times in recent years, this is not an exclusive fix up after 100 years of neglect.

Why would the CEO of NZTR not have all the information?  I thought the Awapuni renovation was being closely monitored by NZTR.

You continue to run trainers and jockeys down for the state of tracks and racing.  You have a funny take on some aspects.

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

You are talking bullshit about how useless you think trainers and jockeys are.

Where have I said any Trainer or Jockey is "useless"?

44 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Awapuni has been renovated quite a few times in recent years, this is not an exclusive fix up after 100 years of neglect.

There hasn't been a complete renovation like the one done this time in the last 25 years.  The last big renovation was just on the troublesome bend.  Flemington does a complete renovation every 4 to 5 years!  We have this expectation in NZ that a track will last forever.  They don't.  You need to work extensively on them EVERY year to extend their usefulness otherwise you get the problems we are facing now.  So if you are going to apportion blame, which you seem intent on doing, then it is those that didn't commit enough capital or resource to renovate on a regular basis.  

Dairy and dry stock farmers had to adapt why didn't our Racing Clubs?  The degradation was a slow gradual decline.  Trainers from what I've seen are reluctant to work together and demand better.

BTW in 100 years you would expect to do a serious renovation on a track a minimum of every 10 years - so TEN times!

50 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Why would the CEO of NZTR not have all the information?  I thought the Awapuni renovation was being closely monitored by NZTR.

 

He wouldn't have the reasons for the abandonment.  Everything was done to ensure that the meeting went ahead and completed successfully.  A horse slipped.  Why?  Where was the system failure?  Hell Ellerslie spent 10 time what Awapuni has and look what happened there!!!!

52 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

You continue to run trainers and jockeys down for the state of tracks and racing.  You have a funny take on some aspects.

NO I'm not running Trainers and Jockeys down I'm just saying as the customer of the tracks they like all stakeholders have been part of the problem.  In effect I'm blaming everyone.  We all stood by and put up with crap for decades and never addressed the problems or demanded that capital be invested in infrastructure for the benefit of the horse.  Not flash stands and parties and over the top stakes but good safe surfaces to race horses on and safe clean secure stabling to house them.

Easy now to blame management, track managers and turf science experts who are trying to fix the years of neglect.  One of the few things that Messara got right in his report was his assessment of the state of our tracks.

[Wingman]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

In effect I'm blaming everyone.  We all stood by and put up with crap for decades and never addressed the problems or demanded that capital be invested in infrastructure for the benefit of the horse.

Please do not bundle everyone together. The hard done by punter has no input into getting tracks upgraded. All WE can do is not bet on any track that we consider dodgy. e.g. I only bet on the 'old' Awapuni track when it was a good surface

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, Wingman said:

Please do not bundle everyone together. The hard done by punter has no input into getting tracks upgraded. All WE can do is not bet on any track that we consider dodgy. e.g. I only bet on the 'old' Awapuni track when it was a good surface

Well you've probably had a share or two in a horse at one stage.  I bought into the Winnie funded largesse on two occasions prior to the AWT's.  Didn't buy into them nor have a bought into this over inflated short term stakes increase.  Would love to see some nice turf tracks that played fair in all seasons and weren't shifty sand based.

I've never worked out why Trainers just accept what they are given and adapt.  So it is great to see them fighting back over Levin.

[Wingman]

My take on trainers is that they are too busy developing their stable, meeting their commitments. By the time the lucky few get to the top and their name has genuine influence they are then too busy dealing with owners and staff. Levin fightback is great indeed but that is rare. Would be really nice if it encouraged other collective 'we shall not be moved' in the future.

Where the influential trainers, some now retired, have let the industry down is by letting these obsession's with sand tracks take a hold. We are a grass track nation and in the next few decades it would not surprise me if grass tracks make a comeback.

[Chief Stipe]

I stand corrected @SLB2.0 check out R8 at The Valley - a horse lost its footing similar to Awapuni.  Will there be an abandonment?

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Wingman said:

We are a grass track nation and in the next few decades it would not surprise me if grass tracks make a comeback.

Might be too late by then.

6 minutes ago, Wingman said:

My take on trainers is that they are too busy developing their stable, meeting their commitments. By the time the lucky few get to the top and their name has genuine influence they are then too busy dealing with owners and staff.

They don't seem keen to speak out for some reason.  I'm not sure their Association has any nerve or desire to rock the boat even behind the scenes.

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I've never worked out why Trainers just accept what they are given and adapt.

What is that comment based on?  What you see and hear in the media?

[Special Agent]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They don't seem keen to speak out for some reason.  I'm not sure their Association has any nerve or desire to rock the boat even behind the scenes.

So you know what happens behind the scenes do you?

[Wingman]

35 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Might be too late by then.

I did type that but deleted, preferring to be optimistic

[Special Agent]

Isn't the obvious being overlooked?

For some stupid reason there was a desire to get Awapuni racing in a hurry.  Why was the track not given sufficient time to consolidate?

Jumpouts and trials are not the same as races.  I think more trialling is required, and now necessary from a confidence point of view.

[Wingman]

Just now, Special Agent said:

Isn't the obvious being overlooked?

For some stupid reason there was a desire to get Awapuni racing in a hurry.  Why was the track not given sufficient time to consolidate?

Jumpouts and trials are not the same as races.  I think more trialling is required, and now necessary from a confidence point of view.

We cannot answer the Why? however it is also the reason the track managers cannot be held to blame. Move the rail out and get on with it is not the track managers decision.

[Special Agent]

Management should take the wrap for rushing back to race day.

You can't blame this on trainers, jockeys or people of the past.