Should the Hawkes Bay Triple Crown kick off one week or two weeks later than traditionally?

[Chief Stipe]

I posted this in another Topic in response to a plea by @hesi to those in control not to change the Hawkes Bay Spring Carnival.

Firstly it isn't a 3 day meeting nor in fact a Spring Carnival.  The only 3 day Spring Carnival in NZ racing is Cup Week at Riccarton.

The Hawkes Bay - 'Triple Crown' is raced over 5 weeks with 3 weeks between the first two races and two between the last two.  Of course there are some good age group support races on the programmes like the Gold Trail and the HB Guineas.

I was thinking about possible changes to the Hawkes Bay 3 days.  One that came to mind was moving the series ahead two weeks i.e. have the first day on the third Saturday in September instead of the first.  Another change would be shortening the 3 week gap between the first two to two weeks.  If you kept the 3 week gap between the first two then the final day would be Labour Weekend where the Friday before Labour Day is Hawkes Bay Anniversary Day.  Even a 1 week later start would give Spring a chance to kick in.

Some minor adjustments would need to be made to some of the age group races at other venues but in my opinion that pattern is all a bit screwed anyway.

So for arguments sake in 2026 the dates would be:

Day 1 - 20th September + 2wks
Day 2 - 4th October +2wks
Day 3 - 18th October

or

Day 1 - 20th September + 3wks
Day 2 - 11th October +2wks
Day 3 - 25th October

[hesi]

Yes Chief Weaver, don't forget to add in the mung beans and quinoa lol

[Chief Stipe]

54 minutes ago, hesi said:

Yes Chief Weaver, don't forget to add in the mung beans and quinoa lol

Uh?  Three meetings over 5 weeks is hardly a "Carnival"!  

Plus in recent years the first 10 days of September seem to have been wetter than average.  

But I guess @hesi you have joined those who are not open to change.

[hesi]

Change by all means, but well researched change.  Racing administrators over the years have not done this well.  They have done what they thought is best, and you must surely know that you do that at your peril.  Find out what people want, what the industry wants.

Ellerslie had a wonderful 4-day carnival, but Weaver in his wisdom thought he could double up on that by having a carnival with harness and greyhounds in March, that turned out to be a disaster.

The Derby was moved to early March, with the excuse that it would get better fields because more chance for 3-year-olds to develop.  The original Derby is run in the first week of June, which equates to our first week December.

The Levin Racing Club introduced Bayer day back in 1981 and it quickly became one of the days in NZ racing with the Bayer Classic.  But that race day got chopped and changed around as was the Bayer, then Levin Classic.  Until it is now struggling, not even sure it is G1 anymore

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, hesi said:

The Levin Racing Club introduced Bayer day back in 1981 and it quickly became one of the days in NZ racing with the Bayer Classic.  But that race day got chopped and changed around as was the Bayer, then Levin Classic.  Until it is now struggling, not even sure it is G1 anymore

There were many issues at play not the least of all being the major sponsor dropping out - Bayer after 20 years.  They pumped a lot of money into the stake.  Also it was run on a Friday which initially was a help but then a hindrance.

Ironically it only became a Group 1 the year it was moved to Otaki!

However it's slow demise is probably most due to the screwed pattern.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, hesi said:

Change by all means, but well researched change.  Racing administrators over the years have not done this well.  They have done what they thought is best, and you must surely know that you do that at your peril.  Find out what people want, what the industry wants.

I'm only suggesting moving the HB series back two weeks and cutting the 3 weeks between the first two days to two.   NOT changing the season!!  That two weeks later might make all the difference in terms of horse preparation and track conditions.

[hesi]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

There were many issues at play not the least of all being the major sponsor dropping out - Bayer after 20 years.  They pumped a lot of money into the stake.  Also it was run on a Friday which initially was a help but then a hindrance.

Ironically it only became a Group 1 the year it was moved to Otaki!

However it's slow demise is probably most due to the screwed pattern.

It was also screwed when they made the 2000 Guineas worth 2 mil.   Was it on a Thurs or Friday.  Bayer used to have a huge marquee oncourse and being an agro chemical supplier, a lot of the rural sector attended.  Have a look at the list of winners, a who's who of NZ racing 

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, hesi said:

It was also screwed when they made the 2000 Guineas worth 2 mil.   Was it on a Thurs or Friday.  Bayer used to have a huge marquee oncourse and being an agro chemical supplier, a lot of the rural sector attended.  Have a look at the list of winners, a who's who of NZ racing 

As I said there were a number of issues.  The biggest was Bayer pulling sponsorship which set the race on its way in the first place.  Whoever talked them into those 20 years of sponsorship deserves a lot of credit.  Bayer went through cost cutting in 2003 and I imagine that was part of the reason they pulled out.  Events tire eventually unless they are reinvigorated - a bit like tracks.  

[All The Aces]

The three week gap suits most. A lot of horses are having their first run for the season the first day and a three week gap gives them more time to recover. 

The current dates suit if the meetings are being held at Hastings as the Bay has better spring weather and in fact it would have been a good track both days so far this year if the races had been held there.   

[Chief Stipe]

How many trainers give their horses 3 weeks between their first run and their second?  Yes the weather might have been OK on all three days this year - what condition the track was in can only be speculated on.  However if trainers have more time to get ready during a very wet August leading into the first day surely that benefits everyone.  Further trainers could get an extra trial (or race) into their horses and thus be fitter day 1 thus negating the need for a longer recovery period.

[All The Aces]

Quite a number and don't forget the travelling factor also.

As for trials, they keep getting called off. 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by All The Aces

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, All The Aces said:

Quite a number and don't forget the travelling factor also.

Hardly a huge distance to travel.  4 hours from Cambridge - less from anywhere else.  I think you'll find the reason for the 3 week gap is historical rather than trainer inspired.

1 hour ago, All The Aces said:

As for trials, they keep getting called off

Part of my point entirely.  Another two weeks gives options.  We now have 3 yr olds racing over 1400m first up in black type and still having to back up 2 weeks later.

 

 

[mikeynz]

Is there any reason if they still have a Triple Crown series in the CD in Spring that maybe race at more than one venue ?.......just a thought.

[hesi]

1 hour ago, mikeynz said:

Is there any reason if they still have a Triple Crown series in the CD in Spring that maybe race at more than one venue ?.......just a thought.

Thanks, in retrospect, carnival was not the word I was looking for, Triple Crown series!

[Chief Stipe]

@All The Aces in 2014, 2020 and 2021 the three races were two weeks apart.  In 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014 and 2016 the first leg was the last Saturday in August not the first or second Saturday in September.  

From 2000 to 2016 the Mudgway the first leg was run 14 times out of 17 in August.

So much for two weeks apart and tradition.  Each race of the triple crown has had at least 3 different names depending on sponsor.