$45000 for 4 2yo Trotters

[mikeynz]

Now I know the stake will be adjusted a bit but how naive is this just seems another bungle by HRNZ, race 1 Addington, by all means run a 2yo trot, but when everything else is 17000 that's weird, no doubt the 4  guys turning will be rubbing their hands with glee, nice work if you can get it.

[Gammalite]

13 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Now I know the stake will be adjusted a bit but how naive is this just seems another bungle by HRNZ, race 1 Addington, by all means run a 2yo trot, but when everything else is 17000 that's weird, no doubt the 4  guys turning will be rubbing their hands with glee, nice work if you can get it.

It's common for the 2 year old trotters Mikey. to run for good prizemoney these days.

In your 4 horse field Race 1 this Friday is a good filly of Nathan Williamsons. Duchess Maria.

All 4 of her races she has won so far. All 4 were at $45,000 prizemoney for those races , where she got about $27k for each win. (Including defeating the Aussie Raider Kyvalley Ray who won the harness millions last week ) 

So her career sits at $110,000 earnings already which is deserving of the best 2 yearold in the country. 👍🏆

The races were at Invercargill , Auckland and 2 at Addington with 5, 7, 7 and 6 runners . this weeks field is smaller as is restricted to Fillies only. she was beating the colts lately.

Is amazing money for 2 yearold trotters !!, but the Pacers races for double that a lot of the time 🤔.

Think of it as great encouragement to get owners buying good trot breeds that will get to the track at an early age , because they can get some great monetary reward . and race from a mobile start regularly.  2 great things 👍💰

Is WAY better than waiting to 4 as a maiden racing for 9k in a 14- 18 horse field on a Grass track somewhere 🤣😉 and getting skittled every 2nd start lol. 😂 and racing from those standing starts that are thwart with 'danger'. and wreck a horses confidence quite often. Even champ John Dunn has problems at times, so shows how tricky it really is. 

[the galah]

16 hours ago, Gammalite said:

.

Think of it as great encouragement to get owners buying good trot breeds that will get to the track at an early age , because they can get some great monetary reward . and race from a mobile start regularly.  2 great things 👍💰

 

if what you said actually played out ,then yes that would make sense.

But it doesn't and has never done so.

Your making an argument that simply ignores reality.

trainers/owners know that pushing their young horses to enable them to be a likely also ran in a high stake race is rather pointless and often counterproductive.

its been like that for decades.How long a pattern do people have to have befiore they see something.

Administrators can ignore the obvious,but its obvious to everyone else..

administrators woke up a little with their 2 year old bonuses this year and announced and in effect announced,hey these 2 year old bonuses we have been paying,well,duh,they failed to get any more starters so what we will try next is ,lets pay them $4000 to run last at their first 2 year old start if a horse meets the sale conditions..In other words they admitted they had failed but doubled down on failure and went again with another hair brained scheme that benefitted only a very small % of the industry.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

But it doesn't and has never done so.

Your making an argument that simply ignores reality.

trainers/owners know that pushing their young horses to enable them to be a likely also ran in a high stake race is rather pointless and often counterproductive.

its been like that for decades

Think you're living in the past a bit , when 2 yearold trots were just Non-tote run before the race program.

This century the leading stables are excellent at getting young horses to the races.

I guess I have to Grant you leeway as the South Island with it's Cold weather , has always been notoriously slow at getting horses to the races at a young age.

NEWS FLASH : Mr Galah . The season dates changed . Is now excellent to get your 2 year-old to the races this time of year before they turn 3 on January 1st. 

HRNZ (and ALL the Aus states have been excellent at running SIRES Stakes racing for 2 , 3 ( and in Aus 4 year olds as well) this is always Super important. You also have the excellent Harness Millions and great stuff like that.

Don't talk about Owners like they're stupid . They want their horses at the races at an early age , and your leading trainers ARE CAPABLE of doing this . Counterproductive ???? that's just rubbish mate 🤣.  (well I guess it's counterproductive to those that can't train as well as Barry 😂😂, but only Mark is better and he has the same Roy bloodlines ? 😁🏆💰

Barry Purdon/Phelan had MEANT TO BE and a couple of other young trotters earning Big money last year. As does the Dunn's and Hope's (great trainers of young 2 and 3 year old trotters) and their Owners GET a QUID.  Great trainers getting great results 

the pacing section see's Stonewall keen to get Amongst these HUGE 2 year old pacing racing. Telfers are great trainers getting the YOUNGSTERS going , (Like Barry/Phelan and Ray Green in the North) and so get a Lot of Wins.

Marketplace was terrific last season as 2 yearold (with the Choc's as well pushing him hard) Allstars .

Heres another Example I would think if you Phone the Stonewall Bloke that paid  $300,000  for 2 yearlings each,  early this year at record prices , he will be expecting them to hit the track and wwwwwwin as 2 year olds.? 

He won't be just 'popping them in the paddock' . Like your good old days until they're 4 . 🤣😉  of course they' lol be pushing them . Mad if they don't . They're tough well bred horses.  

Buy a yearling . race at 2 . All the leading Aus barns do that too. 

1 hour ago, the galah said:

But it doesn't and has never done so.

Your making an argument that simply ignores reality.

You are ignoring the real REALITY my friend. Haven't you watched the trends this century ?  

(Just as a small note for you, I used to qualify my horses in NZ as a late 2 yearold. But the weather turned to nasty by Winter when the season ended , so they were spelled un-raced usually, and I raced them in Maiden 3 year olds in the summer when horses are easier to work/train and the enjoyment is much better. Now with the Season date Change to the Normal year Calender ( A TRULY EXCELLENT DEVELOPEMENT) you can race your 2 year-old towards the end of the year EVERY Season , at the end of the year  now. No excuses!!!  . It has been the major breakthrough the Sport Needed ) 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Gammalite

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Think you're living in the past a bit , when 2 yearold trots were just Non-tote run before the race program.

This century the leading stables are excellent at getting young horses to the races.

I guess I have to Grant you leeway as the South Island with it's Cold weather , has always been notoriously slow at getting horses to the races at a young age.

NEWS FLASH : Mr Galah . The season dates changed . Is now excellent to get your 2 year-old to the races this time of year before they turn 3 on January 1st. 

HRNZ (and ALL the Aus states have been excellent at running SIRES Stakes racing for 2 , 3 ( and in Aus 4 year olds as well) this is always Super important. You also have the excellent Harness Millions and great stuff like that.

Don't talk about Owners like they're stupid . They want their horses at the races at an early age , and your leading trainers ARE CAPABLE of doing this . Counterproductive ???? that's just rubbish mate 🤣.  (well I guess it's counterproductive to those that can't train as well as Barry 😂😂, but only Mark is better and he has the same Roy bloodlines ? 😁🏆💰

Barry Purdon/Phelan had MEANT TO BE and a couple of other young trotters earning Big money last year. As does the Dunn's and Hope's (great trainers of young 2 and 3 year old trotters) and their Owners GET a QUID.  Great trainers getting great results 

the pacing section see's Stonewall keen to get Amongst these HUGE 2 year old pacing racing. Telfers are great trainers getting the YOUNGSTERS going , (Like Barry/Phelan and Ray Green in the North) and so get a Lot of Wins.

Marketplace was terrific last season as 2 yearold (with the Choc's as well pushing him hard) Allstars .

Heres another Example I would think if you Phone the Stonewall Bloke that paid  $300,000  for 2 yearlings each,  early this year at record prices , he will be expecting them to hit the track and wwwwwwin as 2 year olds.? 

He won't be just 'popping them in the paddock' . Like your good old days until they're 4 . 🤣😉  of course they' lol be pushing them . Mad if they don't . They're tough well bred horses.  

Buy a yearling . race at 2 . All the leading Aus barns do that too. 

You are ignoring the real REALITY my friend. Haven't you watched the trends this century ?  

(Just as a small note for you, I used to qualify my horses in NZ as a late 2 yearold. But the weather turned to nasty by Winter when the season ended , so they were spelled un-raced usually, and I raced them in Maiden 3 year olds in the summer when horses are easier to work/train and the enjoyment is much better. Now with the Season date Change to the Normal year Calender ( A TRULY EXCELLENT DEVELOPEMENT) you can race your 2 year-old towards the end of the year EVERY Season , at the end of the year  now. No excuses!!!  . It has been the major breakthrough the Sport Needed ) 

 

well,i have to point out this topic is  another in a long list of topics about the same subject. i.e. the very small field size in so many 2 year old races,often with the higher stake races.

i've never disagreed with you when you say people will be aiming to have their horses in these races when they train them early in their careers. So we agree on that.

and i agree there has to be good financial incentive and reward for the connections of those who do end up with a top young horse

But when trainers and owners come to realisation their horses at best could well get gut busting runs ,just to run a midfield place at best,they think, whats the point in that,their horses have greater earning potential in graded races or at other tracks and therefore are placed accordingly. Thats just what happens and makes perfect sense anyway.

the only time you will get larger numbers in the age group feature races is when the abilities of the horses is more even.Or when you have runners with connections who are willing to sacrifice their lesser horses because they like to be there for the big occassions.99% of trainers don't want to sacrifice their better horses to run midfield in a big race.They don't have the numbers waiting in the wings to do that to them.

then you get the very rare trainer,like say brad mowbray who is happy to go around with an inexperienced green horse, to earn an extra couple of thousand for running at the back. Hey good luck to brad mowbray,but very few  new zealand trainers do that.

 hrnz realise that,which is why they have to pay out around $3000-$5000 to the horses that run last in some of those high stake age group races.And why they think its a great idea to pay out bonuses from next year to some horses who run last in any 2 year old race.

You often talk about the need for high stakes to go to the top end,yet the races you talk about reward the horses who can't keep up and run in the last few with tens of thousands in these bigger races. 

as to the change of season. Thats just a red herring in my opinion.A horse is born on the same date and has lived the same number of days ,whether they changed the official date of birth for all horses to the 1st of january or left it as the 1st of august.No one can argue thats not correct.

Like i have always said,its just smoke and mirrors to say they are getting more 2 year olds to race now we have changed the d.o.b. to 31 december. They would have run anyway in  december, whether they were shown as a 2 or 3 year olds based on the official.d.o.b. It would have made just as much sense to just changed the wording on the race programming.

i think theres always been a lack of logic for anyone to say a horse is more likely to race as a late 2 year old,than as as an early 3 year old,simply because  they went and changed the date.Using that logic,i could say lets put the d.o.b. back another 3 months to 1st april and that way we will get even more 2 year olds lining up. And then i could claim how clever that is.

At the end of the day,it all comes back to the cost to the industry of runningraces with small filelds that generate next to no turnover.

there has to be a balance found where the owners of the best young horses are rewarded enough by way of stakemoney,but very importantly that has to be balanced with the flow on impact on stakes for the races that generate the turnover that provide the money to pay all stakes.

In other words if you over subsidize the product that is draining your finances and underfund the product that is replenishing your finances,then that will mean you have to cut back on the funding for all the industry,including the part of the industry generating the profit,which will lead to less partuicpation at that lower lever,which will lead to less money being generated,which will inevitably lead to less funding for the high end races.

so in effect, maintained the level of stakes in the high end races,irrespective of whether they have only 4 runners, will lead to significant reduction in stakes for the very people you want to get it. a bit like shooting yourself in the foot.

one of the ojnly positives for nz is the likes of victoria was silly enough to keep paying the big stakes to the top end horses,so they ran out of money,had to cut stakes significantly or they folded,and now that don't import as many nz horses,which is a plus for the nz industry as far as oless horses being exported. always a silver lining somewhere if you look hard enough.

Edited 9 hours ago by the galah

[mikeynz]

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

well,i have to point out this topic is  another in a long list of topics about the same subject. i.e. the very small field size in so many 2 year old races,often with the higher stake races.

i've never disagreed with you when you say people will be aiming to have their horses in these races when they train them early in their careers. So we agree on that.

and i agree there has to be good financial incentive and reward for the connections of those who do end up with a top young horse

But when trainers and owners come to realisation their horses at best could well get gut busting runs ,just to run a midfield place at best,they think, whats the point in that,their horses have greater earning potential in graded races or at other tracks and therefore are placed accordingly. Thats just what happens and makes perfect sense anyway.

the only time you will get larger numbers in the age group feature races is when the abilities of the horses is more even.Or when you have runners with connections who are willing to sacrifice their lesser horses because they like to be there for the big occassions.99% of trainers don't want to sacrifice their better horses to run midfield in a big race.They don't have the numbers waiting in the wings to do that to them.

then you get the very rare trainer,like say brad mowbray who is happy to go around with an inexperienced green horse, to earn an extra couple of thousand for running at the back. Hey good luck to brad mowbray,but very few  new zealand trainers do that.

 hrnz realise that,which is why they have to pay out around $3000-$5000 to the horses that run last in some of those high stake age group races.And why they think its a great idea to pay out bonuses from next year to some horses who run last in any 2 year old race.

You often talk about the need for high stakes to go to the top end,yet the races you talk about reward the horses who can't keep up and run in the last few with tens of thousands in these bigger races. 

as to the change of season. Thats just a red herring in my opinion.A horse is born on the same date and has lived the same number of days ,whether they changed the official date of birth for all horses to the 1st of january or left it as the 1st of august.No one can argue thats not correct.

Like i have always said,its just smoke and mirrors to say they are getting more 2 year olds to race now we have changed the d.o.b. to 31 december. They would have run anyway in  december, whether they were shown as a 2 or 3 year olds based on the official.d.o.b. It would have made just as much sense to just changed the wording on the race programming.

i think theres always been a lack of logic for anyone to say a horse is more likely to race as a late 2 year old,than as as an early 3 year old,simply because  they went and changed the date.Using that logic,i could say lets put the d.o.b. back another 3 months to 1st april and that way we will get even more 2 year olds lining up. And then i could claim how clever that is.

At the end of the day,it all comes back to the cost to the industry of runningraces with small filelds that generate next to no turnover.

there has to be a balance found where the owners of the best young horses are rewarded enough by way of stakemoney,but very importantly that has to be balanced with the flow on impact on stakes for the races that generate the turnover that provide the money to pay all stakes.

In other words if you over subsidize the product that is draining your finances and underfund the product that is replenishing your finances,then that will mean you have to cut back on the funding for all the industry,including the part of the industry generating the profit,which will lead to less partuicpation at that lower lever,which will lead to less money being generated,which will inevitably lead to less funding for the high end races.

so in effect, maintained the level of stakes in the high end races,irrespective of whether they have only 4 runners, will lead to significant reduction in stakes for the very people you want to get it. a bit like shooting yourself in the foot.

one of the ojnly positives for nz is the likes of victoria was silly enough to keep paying the big stakes to the top end horses,so they ran out of money,had to cut stakes significantly or they folded,and now that don't import as many nz horses,which is a plus for the nz industry as far as oless horses being exported. always a silver lining somewhere if you look hard enough.

One wonders what the betting figures will be......a smart business plan when looking at a business model would always cut money losing ventures and focus on what makes money, HRNZ, they do the opposite.

Edited 8 hours ago by mikeynz

[Gammalite]

31 minutes ago, the galah said:

well,i have to point out this topic is  another in a long list of topics about the same subject. i.e. the very small field size in so many 2 year old races,often with the higher stake races.

Well you just have to race who turns up. Just because it's not 14 doesn't mean the end of the world.

It does for Punters like Brodster and NoworNever. but to HRNZ it doesn't . ( BTW Gaza strip is more like the end of the world IMO lol 😉)

WHY should Competitors get LESS Prizemoney for feature races , just because the number of starters you want doesn't turn up ?? that doesn't make sense Mr Galah.

last week the there was just 5 starters (in a South Island race perish the thought ) that was the feature races of the day and named the Southern Trotting Oaks . worth about 22k the winner picked up near 14k. 

So you're saying Don't have the race ? because of number of starters . ? what about the connections of the winner ? A John Dunn filly who the owners were probably delighted to win a feature Oaks. ?

If you don't have these races , they will CEASE to Exist. a sad day. keeping the 2 and 3 year olds 'motivated ' ( you know what I mean the owners and trainers that SET HORSES for these races these days ) is Important. 

[Gammalite]

50 minutes ago, the galah said:

think theres always been a lack of logic for anyone to say a horse is more likely to race as a late 2 year old,than as as an early 3 year old,simply because  they went and changed the date.Using that logic,i could say lets put the d.o.b. back another 3 months to 1st april and that way we will get even more 2 year olds lining up. And then i could claim how clever that is.

they changed the date for a reason. So more people could race their horse as a actual 2 yearold . Past its 2 year foaling date. 

I find it very Logical , that the effect of the changed date is EXTREMELY Good. the Sires Stakes can now run at the Cup meeting instead of Late Autumn for starters.  It's only a few that can blossom in that late Autumn . Now many can blossom late Spring and into the Summer. 

The Derby colts are nearly 4 now , when they compete in the NZ Derby . Been some great racing with Fully developed horses that don't have to be rushed anymore. Is so LOGICAL it Slaps you in the Face. 

Marketplace and Got the Choc's and Rubira are just about on their 4th Prep already ( as late 3 yearolds) this is Marvellous for their development and Way way way better than the poor 2 year and 3 year olds of previous seasons had to cope with. Summer Racing is best for em' . but you don't seem to understand that. Maybe not logical enough lol. 

When you've got 6 MORE months of racing time for your 2 year-old (than previous to the Season date change)  OF COURSE you're gunna have more opportunity to win a race with near a full grown horse. TOTAL LOGIC my friend. 

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

they changed the date for a reason. So more people could race their horse as a actual 2 yearold . Past its 2 year foaling date. 

I find it very Logical , that the effect of the changed date is EXTREMELY Good. the Sires Stakes can now run at the Cup meeting instead of Late Autumn for starters.  It's only a few that can blossom in that late Autumn . Now many can blossom late Spring and into the Summer. 

The Derby colts are nearly 4 now , when they compete in the NZ Derby . Been some great racing with Fully developed horses that don't have to be rushed anymore. Is so LOGICAL it Slaps you in the Face. 

Marketplace and Got the Choc's and Rubira are just about on their 4th Prep already ( as late 3 yearolds) this is Marvellous for their development and Way way way better than the poor 2 year and 3 year olds of previous seasons had to cope with. Summer Racing is best for em' . but you don't seem to understand that. Maybe not logical enough lol. 

When you've got 6 MORE months of racing time for your 2 year-old (than previous to the Season date change)  OF COURSE you're gunna have more opportunity to win a race with near a full grown horse. TOTAL LOGIC my friend. 

So the premise of your whole argument is that winning a race while the race is classified as for 2 year olds, is of greater importance than winning the very same race ,while the race is classified as being for 3 year olds. and so on..

thats why i said,well if that is the factor of so much  importance and you can do it by moving the dob like they did,then its just as logical to say why not make the d.o.b. as the 1 st of april instead of the 1st of january. Because that way it will lead to even more winners who are classified as 2 year olds,the thing you deem of so much importance.

i not saying they should do that,i'm just pointing out how artificial that logic  is.

If the field sizes and turnovers for all these 2 year old races were anywhere near the average for races  elsewhere,then you wouldn't get the level of criticism you get directed towards the 2 year old racing stakes and bonuses.

But they aren't are they.and as much as you and others place no significance to them,the reasons are obvious.

Racing administrators need to acknowledge the realities of today  for all races,including age group races ,and run the quantity and quality of races everywhere, based on the demand horse numbers wise for them. Its just a common sense business model which maximes profit and minimisess loss.

That way they won't run out of money in years to come and everyone who is still in the sport won't need to suffer.

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well you just have to race who turns up. Just because it's not 14 doesn't mean the end of the world.

It does for Punters like Brodster and NoworNever. but to HRNZ it doesn't . ( BTW Gaza strip is more like the end of the world IMO lol 😉)

WHY should Competitors get LESS Prizemoney for feature races , just because the number of starters you want doesn't turn up ?? that doesn't make sense Mr Galah.

last week the there was just 5 starters (in a South Island race perish the thought ) that was the feature races of the day and named the Southern Trotting Oaks . worth about 22k the winner picked up near 14k. 

So you're saying Don't have the race ? because of number of starters . ? what about the connections of the winner ? A John Dunn filly who the owners were probably delighted to win a feature Oaks. ?

If you don't have these races , they will CEASE to Exist. a sad day. keeping the 2 and 3 year olds 'motivated ' ( you know what I mean the owners and trainers that SET HORSES for these races these days ) is Important. 

well,it wasn't that long ago that racing clubs would not run races if they only had 6 guaranteed starters. only about 20 years ago. 

and why did they do that. Becuase they deemed them unviable financially.

so,whats changed.

The thinking of those in charge has changed.

And they currently have money from the entain deal and are happy to spend it until it runs out because they have enough of that money left to last another 3 or 4 years and by then those making the decisions to spend now will have moved on.Then the cuts will start. Its inevitable. And running 4 horse races with next to nothing in turnover will only make the day of reckoning come quicker.On that cherry note i will end this post.

Edited 4 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

and why did they do that. Becuase they deemed them unviable financially.

so,whats changed.

The thinking of those in charge has changed.

The State of the economy has changed.

People don't Bet on harness now. 

4 hours ago, the galah said:

one of the ojnly positives for nz is the likes of victoria was silly enough to keep paying the big stakes to the top end horses,so they ran out of money,had to cut stakes significantly or they folded,and now that don't import as many nz horses,which is a plus for the nz industry as far as oless horses being exported. always a silver lining somewhere if you look hard enough.

well the 2 year olds AREN"T the Top end horses. Any Owner or trainer can Pay up and start in these races for big money. in Victoria alas Emma Stewart nearly wins the Lot lol 😆🤣

Victoria Harness racing  lost $25,000,000 last year 2024. They are trying to sustain the industry to all corners of the state which has about the same General population as NZ and about the same amount of people working in Horses. they don't want people losing their livelihood's. 

they (Vic Harness)  have a fierce competitor that takes nearly ALL the gambling dollar in the Victoria Thoroughbred industry. a totally IMPossible Rival to beat.  HRNZ won't beat the galloping industry either. 

The thinking of those in charge hasn't changed 🤔. At  HRNZ nor Harness Vic. it's just not a great betting product. 

It's the Landscape Mr Galah . you need Benefactors to keep you going and racing. (Keen Participants) 😎  

Alas the funding in Victoria has been cut Dramatically 😧  , Just as you have said here , and Predict will happen in NZ. yes indeed .   you will have $4000 races like QLD in the future if you want to keep racing going probably.

*** One of the Top races of the Calender was raced last Saturday night in Victoria . The time honoured Victoria Cup . And was Broadcast Live on National TV. (our one of only 2 nights that happens in Australia for exposure )  The winner KINGMAN got a Paltry $142,000 first prize  . laughable for the tip top prize.

BUT .  Luckily they still have some big Prizes (like NZ does) for the 2 year olds (like on this thread)  and 3 year olds to create the BEST racing and keep people interested. ( for example : Like Mr Stockman NZ and Mr Seymour QLD, and Mr Shannon in both QLD and NZ as is a legend supporting the sport 👍 )