Change of Tune

[Huey]

Wasn't this the guy who wanted every single recommendation of the Messara Report adopted?

 

https://trackside.co.nz/article/george-simon-must-all-our-major-races-be-in-major-cities

[hesi]

All the big races in the main centres was not a recommendation of the Messara Report though.

All they have to do is open up the infield (if there is any left) and cater for the average punter who enjoys a beer and a bet and they might get a lot more at Ellerslie.  For all the meetings, not just BD/NYD/KM.

If they really wanted to they could do this.  Most punters or keen thoroughbred followers would not be seen dead at Ellerslie the way it is.  They might as well put a sign up at the gates, racing enthusiasts not welcome.  Poor strategy, no one will come to an event if they see the place is almost empty.  A bit like going to a party, not many people there, you are probably going to leave and not come back

[Huey]

11 minutes ago, hesi said:

All the big races in the main centres was not a recommendation of the Messara Report though.

 

No but closing down Country racing venues certainly was!

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Huey said:

No but closing down Country racing venues certainly was!

Not all of them.  Not that many live in the country nowadays.

[Muzza]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

Wasn't this the guy who wanted every single recommendation of the Messara Report adopted?

 

https://trackside.co.nz/article/george-simon-must-all-our-major-races-be-in-major-cities

Yes it was

[Huey]

10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not all of them.  Not that many live in the country nowadays.

You've lost me ...what?

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, Huey said:

You've lost me ...what?

Where are the "thousands" going to come from to attend country tracks?  Certainly not the country.

[Special Agent]

23 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not all of them.  Not that many live in the country nowadays.

I don't get your argument.  Tauherenikau patrons mostly come from Wellington.  Isn't that the attraction for a townie, a trip to a country race meeting?

Why don't the Messara Report lovers all stand up and admit they were wrong??!!  Hard working members, committees and volunteers from country clubs across the nation do themselves proud on a shoe string budget, yet are still expected to throw their hands in the air and relinquish not only their race dates, but their assets too.

Kumara, Motukarara, Kurow, Omakau, Cromwell, Stratford, Thames, Te Teko etc have all had regular bigger crowds than Waipukurau which seems to have gone unnoticed by George, yet wouldn't he have called at the latter two?  Have Woodville, Waipukurau, Waverley, Otaki and Hawera been thanked for stepping up when the "best" tracks in CD have under performed, and not been able to perform at all?

[mikeynz]

2 hours ago, Special Agent said:

 Have Woodville, Waipukurau, Waverley, Otaki and Hawera been thanked for stepping up when the "best" tracks in CD have under performed, and not been able to perform at all?

Well just imagine the landscape if they had closed those tracks by 24 25 as was the theory.

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, mikeynz said:

Well just imagine the landscape if they had closed those tracks by 24 25 as was the theory.

Probably would have been better off.  However the flaw in the plan was not enough capital was released to fix the issues.  As it is there isn't enough to fund operational costs.

As us evident from thw comments of many the industry still runs as an amateur hobby rather than as a self sustaining business.

[Special Agent]

47 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Probably would have been better off. 

I don't think so.  How far do you think the funds from the sale of the tracks that could be sold would have gone?  And more importantly, what do you think the money would have been spent on?  I doubt there would be pristine surfaces and decent safe horse facilities at the remaining courses.

Then have a little count up of what is spent in wages at some of these clubs.  The sale of one CD racecourse heading for the chopping block would only cover the wages of another club for up to two years.

Would the industry be better off ... the answer is a definite no.

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

As us evident from thw comments of many the industry still runs as an amateur hobby rather than as a self sustaining business.

That's an interesting comment.  The racecourses that are deemed to be surplus and thus judged in the amateur hobby category and should be sold will be the freehold ones.  To me that would make those debt free clubs self sustaining businesses.  Yet those which have been managed with some professionalism need to be sold to prop up the dysfunctional and poorly managed clubs.  The sad thing about these decisions is that someone is getting paid good money to make them.

[Special Agent]

I see Winton JC is racing at Ascot Park on Sunday.  Someone on here can correct me if I am wrong but, I thought thoroughbreds were still trained there, and harness race there.  Why on earth do the gallopers not race there too?

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, Special Agent said:

That's an interesting comment.  The racecourses that are deemed to be surplus and thus judged in the amateur hobby category and should be sold will be the freehold ones.  To me that would make those debt free clubs self sustaining businesses.  Yet those which have been managed with some professionalism need to be sold to prop up the dysfunctional and poorly managed clubs.  The sad thing about these decisions is that someone is getting paid good money to make them.

Your argument falls down on one fundamental point.  Not one of the successful or unsuccesful (by your determination) were accumulating enough savings from profits to maintain their assets.  They got by for a long time with the assistance of donations and club member volunteer labour.  Some Clubs ensured the inevitable came quicker than others by investing in the wrong assets and not the core racing assets e.g. tracks.

Another reality is that Trainers, Owners and Jockeys were largely subsidised by the efforts of those Clubs, their business donors and their volunteers.  Every time I hear someone say that a Training Centre runs at a loss the first thing I think is well those that train at it aren't paying enough.

[JTeaz]

10 hours ago, Special Agent said:

I see Winton JC is racing at Ascot Park on Sunday.  Someone on here can correct me if I am wrong but, I thought thoroughbreds were still trained there, and harness race there.  Why on earth do the gallopers not race there too?

Absolutely

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Special Agent said:

I don't think so.  How far do you think the funds from the sale of the tracks that could be sold would have gone?  And more importantly, what do you think the money would have been spent on?  I doubt there would be pristine surfaces and decent safe horse facilities at the remaining courses.

We may never know because it hasn't happened in a timely manner.  Now we are in a frantic race against time.

11 hours ago, Special Agent said:

Then have a little count up of what is spent in wages at some of these clubs.  The sale of one CD racecourse heading for the chopping block would only cover the wages of another club for up to two years.

Which highlights my point about Racecourses being run like amatuer hobbies instead of businesses.  The statutory minimum annual wage in NZ is $49,000.  If a Club can't earn enough to pay employees to do the work then someone needs to subsidise them.

What would you rather have?  A racecourse every 50 to 100km or a much smaller number that pay their way and provide professionally run businesses that provide safe racing and training facilities?

I remember in my rugby playing teens the town I lived in with a population of just of 3,000 had 5 rugby clubs - Excelsior, St Marys, Kiwi, Kokatahi and one other I can't remember the name of.  Today it barely has one!  The population of the town has grown but not by much.  Not one of those clubs owned their fields as the local ratepayer provided them and maintained them with professional amenity horticulture experts (some who helped out at the local Racing Club) but they all had Club rooms.  Over time the stalwarts of the Clubs have passed on as have their "ladies in the kitchen", membership has dropped and the Club rooms have been sold and the Clubs themselves amalgamated.  The Rugby fields are still funded by the local ratepayer and maintained by the council - the Clubs can't afford to do it.  Their income is probably about the same as what it costs to train a race horse.

[Special Agent]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Every time I hear someone say that a Training Centre runs at a loss the first thing I think is well those that train at it aren't paying enough.

How much do you think should be charged to train at a training centre that would be affordable, profitable and sustainable judging by current average charges:-

$6 per use of plough or sand

$12 per use of gallop grass

Not forgetting the $20 trackwork riding fee per ride.

[Special Agent]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I remember in my rugby playing teens the town I lived in with a population of just of 3,000 had 5 rugby clubs - Excelsior, St Marys, Kiwi, Kokatahi and one other I can't remember the name of.  Today it barely has one!  

That may reflect the drop of popularity in rugby over any other factors.  I'm not sure where it ranks with children of sport playing age but, it's at least behind football and netball.

[Special Agent]

"Which highlights my point about Racecourses being run like amatuer hobbies instead of businesses.  The statutory minimum annual wage in NZ is $49,000.  If a Club can't earn enough to pay employees to do the work then someone needs to subsidise them."

How many clubs do you think do not pay employees?

[Special Agent]

"Another reality is that Trainers, Owners and Jockeys were largely subsidised by the efforts of those Clubs, their business donors and their volunteers."

In this world of "user pays" the Clubs are subsidising how much, do you think?

 

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

How much do you think should be charged to train at a training centre that would be affordable, profitable and sustainable judging by current average charges:-

$6 per use of plough or sand

$12 per use of gallop grass

Not forgetting the $20 trackwork riding fee per ride.

Again you miss the point and are as adept at obsfucation as I am.  If a Training Centre is running at a loss there can be only one reason.  Income is less than expenditure.  You have two ways of addressing that deficit - you charge more and/or reduce costs.  

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

That may reflect the drop of popularity in rugby over any other factors.  I'm not sure where it ranks with children of sport playing age but, it's at least behind football and netball.

Or if you stopped to think about it is reflective of what has happened and is happening to Racing Clubs.  In the Cities why have some Rugby Clubs survived when others haven't?  The stronger clubs today amalgamated and refocussed on their core business.

[Special Agent]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

Or if you stopped to think about it is reflective of what has happened and is happening to Racing Clubs.  In the Cities why have some Rugby Clubs survived when others haven't?  The stronger clubs today amalgamated and refocussed on their core business.

Or maybe we could liken rugby to racing in that they have not nurtured grass roots, the interest is waning, the numbers declining and maybe the best rugby players are no longer there to come through a tried and true system.  Too much back patting by admin and arse licking of the stars.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

How many clubs do you think do not pay employees?

Yet again you miss the point which was where once there were local volunteers to help with maintenance work and local businesses gave of their time or donated services/cash this no longer happens.  So instead of the amateur club being subsidised they had to hire people and pay them at least the minimum wage.

I remember 55 years ago my father and half his staff to shift the old and installing a new running rail.  With his best mate who was an agricultural contracted we helped and create grade a dirt track for training.  Very little of that happens today nor is it sustainable if you wish to race more than two or three times a year.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Or maybe we could liken rugby to racing in that they have not nurtured grass roots, the interest is waning, the numbers declining and maybe the best rugby players are no longer there to come through a tried and true system.  Too much back patting by admin and arse licking of the stars.

That may happen in Wellington but certainly not in Canterbury.  As for too much back patting and arse licking well that attitude is your cynical assessment of your neighbourhood.  Do you really think the moaning and bitching achieves anything except put two tribes at war?