10 year timeframe for the new Waikato greenfields...

[curious]

1 hour ago, Special Agent said:

Yes, that's also what I heard.  In fact, the point was made that although Auckland and Waikato are different provinces they are now considered in the northern region.

I agree. The Act says that the money must be spent in the same region. It seems to be taking a very wide definition of that saying that includes Waikato. Region usually has a legal meaning of something more like by District Council of which there are 16 through the country and if an Avondale sale is made by agreement with the club, the club would have to agree to that as a purpose for the proceeds to be used.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, Special Agent said:

I believe no New Zealand racecourses have been sold since Hokitika.

But Hokitika wasn't sold by NZTR - the Club effectively gave it away.  Although they did have prior agreements with local stakeholders.

[curious]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But Hokitika wasn't sold by NZTR - the Club effectively gave it away.  Although they did have prior agreements with local stakeholders.

Sold it for $1 didn't they but voluntarily as they still had the right to do at the time without NZTR grabbing the dosh.

[Chief Stipe]

53 minutes ago, curious said:

Sold it for $1 didn't they but voluntarily as they still had the right to do at the time without NZTR grabbing the dosh.

That's the myth that some are promoting.  There were pre-arrangements not too dissimilar to other real estate deals done.  Didn't Westland have the opportunity to invest in Kumara?  The iconic racecourse 25km down the road.

[Trojan]

8 hours ago, Special Agent said:

Yes, that's also what I heard.  In fact, the point was made that although Auckland and Waikato are different provinces they are now considered in the northern region.

Avondale is dead in the water.  Where is the $30m or more going to come from to un-mothball it?  If it is sold where should the funds go?

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's the myth that some are promoting.  There were pre-arrangements not too dissimilar to other real estate deals done.  Didn't Westland have the opportunity to invest in Kumara?  The iconic racecourse 25km down the road.

What is the myth?

[Special Agent]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But Hokitika wasn't sold by NZTR - the Club effectively gave it away.  Although they did have prior agreements with local stakeholders.

There are clubs where members would sooner give their asset back to the community than to NZTR.

[Chief Stipe]

38 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

There are clubs where members would sooner give their asset back to the community than to NZTR.

Then those Club members have no interest in the sustainability of the industry nor for that matter being committed to the constitutional reason for their existence - to further the interests of the sport of racing.  Why couldn't Westland have given the capital released by selling DIRECTLY to the real estate developer to Kumara rather than giving it to the local Council?

My father donated thousands of dollars to the Westland Racing Club either in money or services from his business.  I helped paint running rails and seats.  He was a realist as a business man and also didn't suffer from the parochialism that holds Clubs back.  He was born and bred in Greymouth - his wife was from Westport.  He ran the icecream stall at Kumara selling Snowflake tubs out of large canvas bags.  He raced horses all over the South Island.  He would have seen the writing on the wall for at least one (if not two) of the West Coast Clubs. 

At the end of the day he and his friends of his era would have rather have seen the money invested in racing on the West Coast.

[Chief Stipe]

36 minutes ago, curious said:

What is the myth?

That the Westland Racing Club gave the assets to the local community in an act of virtuous benevolence.

[curious]

I don't think many see it as virtuous benevolence. I thought they were just returning the asset to the community that built it as it should be.

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, curious said:

I don't think many see it as virtuous benevolence. I thought they were just returning the asset to the community that built it as it should be.

Only part of the community built it for the purposes of horse racing.  Those that were interested in horse racing.  For the majority of its existence it was only ever used as a racecourse and horse training facility.  Except for the likes of local athletes like myself who did cross country training on the course.

The objective of the Westland Racing Club as stated in its Constitution was:

To hold and conduct race meetings and to promote, regulate and assist the sport of Horse Racing at the Club's course at Hokitika or anywhere else in New Zealand.

As for it remaining a community asset it has been turned into a housing subdivision.  I know someone who has done a bit of research on the deal and it isn't as nice and touchy as those with other agendas make it out to be.  At the end of the day Racing on the West Coast lost out to age old parochialism rather than a passion for racing.  

[Murray Fish]

1 hour ago, Special Agent said:

There are clubs where members would sooner give their asset back to the community than to NZTR.

Very much my understanding for many of the 'smaller' clubs in the South! 

[curious]

So, you have another unarticulated conspiracy theory?

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

Very much my understanding for many of the 'smaller' clubs in the South! 

But why do it that way Murray?  Why not keep your "Club" going and invest in a better facility down the road?  Isn't the reason for the Club - Racing horses be they Thoroughbred or Standardbred?

Rugby Clubs with equally long historys have had to bit the bullet and merge otherwise  instead of one Club promoting and playing rugby there would be two or three bankrupt ones.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, curious said:

So, you have another unarticulated conspiracy theory?

Not at all.  But then I'm not promoting the myth that the "community" benefited from the "gift".

Explain this - why would the Westland Racing Club act opposite to the objectives of their Club?  The Westland District Council that received the "gift" also has the Kumara Racing Club within its territorial boundaries.  The WRC could have invested in that course and got more meetings!  Hell it is only 20 mins drive down the road and has a lot more shyte land to develop into a decent racecourse!

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not at all.  But then I'm not promoting the myth that the "community" benefited from the "gift".

Explain this - why would the Westland Racing Club act opposite to the objectives of their Club?  The Westland District Council that received the "gift" also has the Kumara Racing Club within its territorial boundaries.  The WRC could have invested in that course and got more meetings!  Hell it is only 20 mins drive down the road and has a lot more shyte land to develop into a decent racecourse!

I think you miss the point. Once members resolved to not continue to pursue the object of racing at Hokitika, dispose of surplus assets, and dissolve the club, the original objectives were no longer. The constitution still said that in the event of dissolution the club would seek NZTR approval to dispose of surplus assets "for the benefit of the people of Westland", NOT for the benefit of racing.

Edited 3 hours ago by curious

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, curious said:

I think you miss the point. Once members resolved to not continue to pursue the object of racing at Hokitika, dispose of surplus assets, and dissolve the club, the original objectives were no longer. The constitution still said that in the event of dissolution the club would seek NZTR approval to dispose of surplus assets "for the benefit of the people of Westland", NOT for the benefit of racing.

So the 150+ year paramount objective of the Club is over ridden with no consideration to those members who developed the assets to pursue their chosen sport of racing.

I think you are deliberating obfuscating the point to suit an ill advised agenda.  Racing AND the people of Westland could have benefited by the Club investing in Kumara which is officially in the District of Westland.  

You also ignore the clause immediately above the one you quote:

In the event of the Club being wound-up or put into liquidation in accordance with (a) above, the property and surplus assets of the Club after payment of the Club's liabilities and the expenses of the winding-up must be disposed of in accordance with section 27 of the Racing Act, for racing, public, charitable, or other purposes in the manner that the Club, with the approval of NZTR, determines.

 

[curious]

Can't you read? The one I quote clearly says they would seek NZTR approval in accord with the one you cite.

They have invested in Kumara btw. Loaned them money and sponsored races there and the other West Coast clubs.

Unfortunately, times change and the 150 year old agenda you are promoting became unviable and unnecessary in the eyes of today's members.

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, curious said:

Can't you read? The one I quote clearly says they would seek NZTR approval in accord with the one you cite.

FFS - you deliberately left the other clause out which is specifically aligned to the objectives of the Club.  All other clauses are tested against those objectives.

39 minutes ago, curious said:

Unfortunately, times change and the 150 year old agenda you are promoting became unviable and unnecessary in the eyes of today's members.

Geez spin around if you will.  One minute you are saying it should be returned to the community that built it now you are saying stuff history it is what the latest community wants!  When the assets were built up a long time before this latest generation came along!!  

The realised assets should have gone to Kumara to further racing on the West Coast.  Not sold to developers to to reduce the rates of ratepayers of the Westland District Council.

But just keep on perpetuating the poster child myth that the Westland Racing Club gave the finger to NZTR!  

[Freda]

21 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

FFS - you deliberately left the other clause out which is specifically aligned to the objectives of the Club.  All other clauses are tested against those objectives.

Geez spin around if you will.  One minute you are saying it should be returned to the community that built it now you are saying stuff history it is what the latest community wants!  When the assets were built up a long time before this latest generation came along!!  

The realised assets should have gone to Kumara to further racing on the West Coast.  Not sold to developers to to reduce the rates of ratepayers of the Westland District Council.

But just keep on perpetuating the poster child myth that the Westland Racing Club gave the finger to NZTR!  

Anyone wanting to support Coast racing would have sponsored Greymouth,  not Kumara,  district or not.

Kumara has no infrastructure to speak of apart from newish tie ups, and as it is pakihi, there isn't much point in spending more money on a swamp.

Greymouth,  on the other hand, has stabling, snd ran a raceday for Westland and probably still would, if not for that fourth day being dropped from the circuit.   As it is they still run the Miss Scenicland.

[curious]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But just keep on perpetuating the poster child myth that the Westland Racing Club gave the finger to NZTR!  

Where the hell did I say that? Is that the so called "myth" you are talking about?

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Freda said:

Anyone wanting to support Coast racing would have sponsored Greymouth,  not Kumara,  district or not.

Kumara has no infrastructure to speak of apart from newish tie ups, and as it is pakihi, there isn't much point in spending more money on a swamp.

No disrespect to your knowledge but as an athlete in my teenage years on the Coast I trained and raced at all four tracks.  

Omoto is also a swamp in the middle and any further development is constrained by physical barriers.  Not to mention the periodic flooding from the Grey River which is one of those physical barriers.

Yes Kumara is built on pakahi flats however many farmers and science has worked out how to turn it into very productive paddocks.  Pakahi soil forms over hard iron pans.  The soil itself isn't that bad but the problem is drainage.  Crack the pan and put in good drains you are fine.  

The difference with Kumara is that there is acres of cheap land surrounding the existing course.  Pakahi doesn't worry the building of infrastructure.  You could very easily build a pseudo artificial turf track on the top of a hard iron pan.

Westland missed an opportunity to promote West Coast racing.