Sunday Surge

[Chief Stipe]

On 16/03/2026 at 7:53 PM, Shab said:

For decades the show was funded by a % takeout around half of what it is today and it was going a lot better than what it is today. Don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out that 130% markets are going to snuff the game out completely 

I gather you and @curious don't understand track funding   Both of you are so wrong it is laughable.

@curious show us all in financial numbers when Racing paid its way.

 

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

@curious show us all in financial numbers when Racing paid its way.

 

Sorry, I don't have time to do that in any great detail. If you want it, you'll have to do it yourself but here's a quick AI summary of the timeline and deterioration with centralisation and bulk funding.

Summary

✔️ Pre‑1951: Clubs ran racing and funded themselves from on‑course wagering.

✔️ 1951–2003 (TAB era): Nationalised wagering grew, funding increasingly centralised.

✔️ 2003: NZ Racing Board created — full centralised funding and governance model began.

[curious]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

Sorry, I don't have time to do that in any great detail. If you want it, you'll have to do it yourself but here's a quick AI summary of the timeline and deterioration with centralisation and bulk funding.

 

Summary

✔️ Pre‑1951: Clubs ran racing and funded themselves from on‑course wagering.

✔️ 1951–2003 (TAB era): Nationalised wagering grew, funding increasingly centralised.

✔️ 2003: NZ Racing Board created — full centralised funding and governance model began.

If you want to dig out my and others' social media posts from the beginning of this century warning of the impending disaster the detailed financial figures are there.

Edited 12 hours ago by curious

[Shab]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I gather you and @curious don't understand track funding   Both of you are so wrong it is laughable.

I know you and your buddies at Entain wish price elasticity wasn't a thing but it is. Remember from Econ 101 as the price of having a punt increases demand decreases. Just the way it is. You gotta work out a different and better way of funding than ludicrous takeout rates.

[Murray Fish]

@Chief Stipe  (sigh, like C I have 'notes' but...)   back in 95 when I did my project 'ownership of horses in nz'  (a owners pamphlet was produce from that) I read the 46 RC  ,  that was behind the setting up of NZTAB and then the 1970 one,  both are worth reading.  The 70's RC was partly driven by the reality of increasing Debt in NZ,  right across the economy...  Driven by the UK's political decisions in early 60's to focus more on EU... -inside capitalism the rate of profit was declining and still is)  <--  meaning that the NZ Working Class started to have less decreasingly spending...  that has  continue to today!!!!!   Note how that reality is NEVER brought into any modern discussion!  And that is the Main Reality of why Racing is heading towards the sunset... Move the chairs around, spend money on that and this, nope!  Don't start me about the ever problem of alienating the sort of punters that bring others into the game!!!!!!  

prior Royal Commissions into Horse Racing in NZ

 

Based on the search results, I can confirm there have been five Royal Commissions specifically into horse racing in New Zealand. They were held in 1911, 1915, 1920, 1946, and 1970 .

Here is a summary of these commissions:

 

 

Year	Key Focus/Reason for Inquiry
1911	Investigate alleged grievances; recommend reduction in racing/trotting days per 1910 Act.
1915	Recommend distribution of extra totalisator permits allowed by 1914 Act.
1920	Determine which clubs should be given totalisator licences; studied all aspects of racing.
1946	Studied every aspect of racing and gaming; far-reaching report on off-course betting and totalisator.
1970	Inquire into all aspects of racing, trotting, and dog racing; administrative and financial structure.

It is worth noting that the 1970 Commission, chaired by Sir Thaddeus McCarthy, was a particularly significant and comprehensive inquiry that also examined greyhound racing and led to major industry reforms, including the establishment of the New Zealand Racing Authority .

 

[Murray Fish]

the role that Debt has played from back then until today...

 

Tracing the precise path of New Zealand's Crown debt through the 1960s is challenging, as detailed annual data from that decade is scarce in the search results I obtained. However, by combining the available data points with contemporary analysis, we can build a clear picture of the debt's trajectory and the growing concerns around it.

Here is a timeline of the available data, which helps illustrate the trend:

| Year | Data Point | Context & Insights | Source |
| :--- | :--- | :--- | :--- |
| **1960** | **4.4%** | This figure represents **claims on the central government as a percentage of GDP** . It's an imperfect proxy for total debt but serves as a useful baseline for the decade. | CEIC Data / World Bank  |
| **1960-61** | **7.5%** | In this financial year, **service payments on New Zealand's total external debt absorbed 7.5% of the country's total external earnings** . This is a significant finding from a contemporary study. | 1964 Newspaper Article (Papers Past)  |
| **1964** | **Forecast for 1970-71: 10.9%** | An academic analysis from 1964 warned that if the trend continued, debt service payments would consume an **estimated 10.9% of external earnings by 1970-71** . This highlights the contemporary anxiety about the rising burden. | 1964 Newspaper Article (Papers Past)  |
| **1967** | **~US$667 million** | A World Bank report from 1968 recorded New Zealand's total external public debt (including undisbursed) at approximately **US$667 million as of June 30, 1967** . | 1968 World Bank Report  |
| **1972** | **NZ$405 million** | This is the earliest figure for total government debt from the provided Treasury data, serving as a post-1960s benchmark . The debt clearly grew substantially from a smaller base in the early 1960s to this level by 1972. | New Zealand Treasury  |

### 💡 The Economic Context of the 1960s
The rise in debt during this period didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a reflection of New Zealand's economic struggles at the time.

- **A Regulated Economy Under Strain:** By the 1960s, New Zealand's highly regulated economy, built on import controls and export subsidies, was beginning to feel the pressure . The country's prosperity was heavily dependent on its relationship with the United Kingdom.
- **Growing Concerns:** As early as 1964, economists were warning about the nation's growing external indebtedness. One analysis pointed out that not only was the debt itself growing, but the cost of servicing it—paying interest and dividends to foreign lenders—was consuming an increasingly large portion of New Zealand's export earnings . This was seen as a worrying trend that could limit the country's economic sovereignty and future growth.
- **A Precursor to Later Crises:** The debt accumulation of the 1960s set the stage for the much more severe economic crises of the 1970s and early 1980s, which were described by a former minister as a time when New Zealand was "literally borrowing to pay the grocer" .

In summary, while the 1960s didn't see the explosive debt growth of later decades, it was a period of steady accumulation that caused significant concern among economists. It marked the beginning of a long-term trend where New Zealand's external obligations grew faster than its capacity to pay, foreshadowing the economic difficulties to come.

I hope this gives you a clearer picture of the debt trends during that decade. Would you be interested in learning how these trends evolved into the more pronounced debt crises of the 1970s and 1980s?

[Chief Stipe]

@Murray Fish @curious the racing industry has NEVER been self-funding.  

No Club put enough profit aside to fund the maintenance amd renewal of core racing assets.  Any other business that goes down that path eventually fails.

Alll some Clubs have left is a land bank that they can off load to fund maintenance.  However the harsh reality is most Clubs don't own their properties or if they do have anything left to sell.

[curious]

16 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Murray Fish @curious the racing industry has NEVER been self-funding.  

No Club put enough profit aside to fund the maintenance amd renewal of core racing assets.  Any other business that goes down that path eventually fails.

That's complete bullshit and you know it. I  can't be bothered with that argument anymore sorry. I've posted financials showing large surpluses funding new stands, major track renovations every 4-5 years etc. Foxton I think earned enough from wagering on Foxton Cup day to cover the stakes and club operating costs for 4 meetings a year with enough in the slush fund for a couple of committee junkets and a well stocked liquor cabinet at meetings. 

[Newmarket]

It seems whatever Entain offer, it is now focussed on small punters, hoping they will bet on anything regardless of price. I know a couple of big punters that no longer receive rebates… both now hardly bet.