Chief Stipe Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Did I hear correctly that the stewards have late scratched Tony Pike's horses in Doomben for treating his horses the day before race day? Sacred Master and The Bostonian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Yep, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_gee Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 yup was done 5am this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Beau Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 4 hours ago, mr_gee said: yup was done 5am this morning No, yesterday morning - Friday to be precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Beau Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 TP did what he normally does every “pre-raceday” here in NZ which is perfectly legal and very helpful to the horse. In Aust it’s against the rules (unfortunately) for Tony. Maybe it’s because they are all so bent over there that they can’t even trust themselves to administer legal medication the day before that they have to have such a huge gap before racing which which is obviously counterproductive to the horse. What a crap environment to have to work within, i.e. surrounded by descendants of convicts. Given their current rules it makes it hard for us to fly a horse over midweek and expect it to perform on the next Saturday. Beau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Dark Beau said: TP did what he normally does every “pre-raceday” here in NZ which is perfectly legal and very helpful to the horse. In Aust it’s against the rules (unfortunately) for Tony. Sorry Dark Beau but it's no more legal in New Zealand to administer alkalising agents the day before the race than it is in Australia. If that's what he has been doing here, the RIU should be investigating and if as reported, " Stewards fined Pike $500, accepting there had been a misunderstanding of the differing rules between Australia and New Zealand", then the stewards over there must be very gullible and have been lied to and sucked in. The NZ rule is quite clear on this and what he was penalised for over there is equally illegal here. 804(5)(b) A person must not administer an alkalinising agent, in any manner, to a horse which is engaged to run in any Race, trial or jump-out: [Added 15 April 2016] (i) at any time on the day of the scheduled Race, trial or jump out and prior to the start of such event; and (ii) at any time during the one Clear Day prior to 12.01am on the day of the scheduled race, official trial, or jump out. Someone needs to read the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Here's the Australian rule that he was charged under for comparison. 3.6 Alkalising Agents AR 178AA (1) A person must not administer an alkalinising agent, in any manner, to a horse which is engaged to run in any race, official trial or jump-out: (a) at any time on the day of the scheduled race, official trial or jump out and prior to the start of such event; and (b) at any time during the one Clear Day prior to 12.01am on the day of the scheduled race, official trial, or jump out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) And here's the Doomben stewards' report that indicates clearly that whether knowingly or unknowingly, he lied to Queensland stewards who didn't bother to check the veracity of his advice to them. Following advice from the QRIC Integrity Investigations Team during routine stable inspections this morning, it was discovered that the treatment book for horses trained by Mr T. Pike, being SACRED MASTER (Race 3) and THE BOSTONIAN (Race 6) revealed that they had been administered with Neutrolene Plus which is an alkalising agent. The administration took place yesterday morning which is in breach of AR178AA. Acting under this Rule both horses were withdrawn at 11.45 a.m. by order of stewards. Mr Pike advised that the administration was performed in error as the Rules regarding the administration of alkalising agents to horses one clear day prior to the race differ from that in New Zealand. Mr Pike pleaded guilty to the charge and was fined $500. In determining penalty stewards acknowledged Mr Pikes forthright evidence and that it was an inadvertent error. It beggars belief that a trainer of Mr. Pike's experience and standing nor his veterinary advisor/s do not know the rule. If he has also been doing this routinely in NZ as Dark Beau suggests, then at the very least all stake earning runners from the stable during the period he has been doing so must surely be disqualified. It is out and out cheating. And we wonder why owners and punters are fleeing NZ racing. Edited May 12, 2018 by curious 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 I agree Curious & based on his statement then a through investigation should take place here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxie Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 So Curious you are in a nutshell saying the rules are the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Boxie said: So Curious you are in a nutshell saying the rules are the same? Word for word identical Boxie. In a nutshell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Whyisit Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 30 minutes ago, curious said: Word for word identical Boxie. In a nutshell! Sure I heard Popperwell say on tv yesterday that a stipe told him that Pikey would have been OK in NZ . It might have been Oatham but not 100 % sure. What gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 20 minutes ago, Whyisit said: Sure I heard Popperwell say on tv yesterday that a stipe told him that Pikey would have been OK in NZ . It might have been Oatham but not 100 % sure. What gives? Why would that surprise anyone..? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxie Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 So Pike might be OK because the interpretation of the rule and it's application by the RIU in New Zealand has been different to OZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turny Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Do we test in NZ - the rule reads identical in both domains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 BOAY has approached the RIU for comment. It would be interesting to hear our NZ trainers have interpreted the rule or how they have been instructed by the RIU to interpret the rule. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) Good for you Chief. It'll be interesting to see if you get a response. I think the rule that Curious has helpfully posted reads pretty clearly. But if Mr Pike is mistaken as the reportage suggests - and moreover - if indeed a NZ stipe is confused (and I don't know that this is the case) - surely it is time for an all-points bulletin to be issued to all trainers to clarify. Perhaps they need to use an example of a horse racing on a Saturday and tell the trainers the last minute of which day they can legally administer such a product to their horse. Or maybe they need to spell it out in pictures or cartoon form?? - pictures of a calendar, clock, horse, racetrack, pastes/powders/stomach tube etc .... I find this very interesting indeed .... Edited May 12, 2018 by jess correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowley Mile Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 This to me is shades of the tainted trough saga........, he said, she said, I'm not saying anything, etc..... what a load of cobblers, we all know the withholding period, and over here in Oz it's no different, well it is, as some don't give a monkey's, just ask Smerdon, oh, that's until you get sprung of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 If as Dark Beau suggests and this is normal practice for Pike, how far back does this go and to what results even in Oz are potentially contentious. Sacred Elixir etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 24 minutes ago, mardigras said: If as Dark Beau suggests and this is normal practice for Pike, how far back does this go and to what results even in Oz are potentially contentious. Sacred Elixir etc etc. That is a little bit of a long bow Mardigras. It would be fair to say that it isn't the first time NZ trainers have gone to Australia to race. I think that this is bigger than what Mr Pike has done and we can't draw conclusions about previous runners. That is not fair. What is of most concern is the fact that allegedly (according to Whyisit) that a NZ Stipe told a trackside presenter that it IS different in NZ. There is of course the other question about how much raceday testing has been done for alkalising agents. Also the efficacy of the alleged treatment on raceday performance more than 24 hours later is very doubtful. That is it doesn't enhance the horse's performance at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: That is a little bit of a long bow Mardigras. It would be fair to say that it isn't the first time NZ trainers have gone to Australia to race. I think that this is bigger than what Mr Pike has done and we can't draw conclusions about previous runners. That is not fair. What is of most concern is the fact that allegedly (according to Whyisit) that a NZ Stipe told a trackside presenter that it IS different in NZ. There is of course the other question about how much raceday testing has been done for alkalising agents. Also the efficacy of the alleged treatment on raceday performance more than 24 hours later is very doubtful. At least that is my understanding and I will have to research that a bit more. What benefit or otherwise the treatment causes is irrelevant. And of course I have not drawn a conclusion about previous runners. But if the log books exist, they should be examined if what Dark Beau wrote is accurate. In that case, any Pike horses to have raced in Australia are potentially in breach of that rule since its inception, and likewise in NZ since the start of the rule here. As it stands, we don't know how other NZ trainers taking horses to Australia have behaved regarding this rule. So you ca't put all NZ trainers in the same basket. The issue around the NZ stipes is an important one, albeit a separate issue. They are two different things. One is a breach of the rules in Australia. Another is the alleged mis-interpretation of the rules in NZ by those asked to enforce them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_gee Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Whyisit said: Sure I heard Popperwell say on tv yesterday that a stipe told him that Pikey would have been OK in NZ . It might have been Oatham but not 100 % sure. What gives? if hes lied to stipes in aus then i just wonder if it went on here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Whyisit said: Sure I heard Popperwell say on tv yesterday that a stipe told him that Pikey would have been OK in NZ . It might have been Oatham but not 100 % sure. What gives? Heard same thing, dodgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Also the efficacy of the alleged treatment on raceday performance more than 24 hours later is very doubtful. That is it doesn't enhance the horse's performance at all. While that's beside the point imo, alkalinising agents are recovery aids and commonly used for that purpose as soon as possible after racing. Providing recovery assistance to a horse the day before a race in this way is prohibited and provides an unfair advantage to trainers doing so over those complying with the rules. Edited May 13, 2018 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, mardigras said: If as Dark Beau suggests and this is normal practice for Pike, how far back does this go and to what results even in Oz are potentially contentious. Sacred Elixir etc etc. That should be easily established by the RIU, especially given treatment logs, owner invoices and even purchase invoices aside from the usual interviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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