Thomass Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Fair crack . . .its been a dinky dye Betty Crocker of a past few weeks when it comes to Whip Integrity here . . . Just the last month we've had a race that had 4 violations in it...all fined.... Opee smashed his mount all the way up the straight...20 smashes in all...got up in the last stride over a horse that was struck 4 times...but of course kept the race as there's no protest allowed.. ...and this last weekend 3 violations on winners.... New research out suggests Whip V non Whip racing in the NH has an advantage of @3L to the Whip...who knew neddies try harder when smacked?? But it's an awful aesthetic...apart from the unfairness of winning against the rules...hello Melbourne Cup So the new Racing Victoria Whip rule was turned down by Racing Australia today...but expect its introduction specifically for Victoria soon az...because they're VERY determined Us? Well continue in our own wee World with the likes of Opee smacking mounts 20 times and keeping the race... Integrity NZ Style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Notwithstanding the 'research' the UK version of whip rules seem to work well to me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladyenergy Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 A great example of no whip racing came right after covid when apprentices were used to capitalise on weights. It's not entertaining and racing is less competitive, no one likes to watch a lesser version of their favorite sport. Jockeys should abide by the rules and the rules should be enforced to get the message across, but whip use is a high level skill set which should be managed not eliminated. For safety and integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 Well NZTR have finally listened and 'appear' to want to join the rest of the World...and not just copy Australia as per usual... ...but I've a feeling it's a fair bit of lip service here...such a long 'consultation' phase as well..what's that about if it's not stalling? Anyway read on New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing (NZTR) is currently seeking consultation from industry participants and other interested parties regarding potential changes to the whip rules. The most recent amendments were made in October last year. This led to the current directive which restricts the use of the whip to no more than five times prior to the final 100m, after which it may be used at the rider’s discretion. While there is a growing view within the industry that the whip will, in time, be phased out, there is ongoing debate as to how long that process might take. Other racing jurisdictions have already imposed more restrictive whip usage than New Zealand with France limiting whip use to just five times within a race; Ireland, eight times and the UK, seven. From October 2020, jockeys riding in California were prohibited from using the whip more than six times in a race, and from using it more than twice in succession without letting the horse respond. Among the matters for consultation are the number of times a whip should be used throughout a race; whether this should be allowed to be in succession; the technique of whip use allowed; the design of the whip; penalty guidelines; and what amendments should be made regarding jumping races. The consultation document and the accompanying background and context can be found here. The consultation period will close on 12 February 2021, following which all feedback will be considered and recommendations will be made to meetings of the NZTR Integrity and Welfare Committee and the NZTR Board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 On 13/11/2020 at 8:17 AM, Ladyenergy said: A great example of no whip racing came right after covid when apprentices were used to capitalise on weights. It's not entertaining and racing is less competitive, no one likes to watch a lesser version of their favorite sport. Jockeys should abide by the rules and the rules should be enforced to get the message across, but whip use is a high level skill set which should be managed not eliminated. For safety and integrity. Well the Arc didn't seem any less competitive to moi...and they've got 5 max... Eventually it'll be banned fully...and that's not far away... Just watch Pike in WA last week and see how he kicks old school...no whip use I could see.. And of course the hoary old chestnut..."but some won't try" Yea na....Imagine breeding out of existence the non triers and breeding only genuine 'want to run' horses? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 On 12/11/2020 at 8:43 PM, Thomass said: Fair crack . . .its been a dinky dye Betty Crocker of a past few weeks when it comes to Whip Integrity here . . . Just the last month we've had a race that had 4 violations in it...all fined.... Opee smashed his mount all the way up the straight...20 smashes in all...got up in the last stride over a horse that was struck 4 times...but of course kept the race as there's no protest allowed.. ...and this last weekend 3 violations on winners.... New research out suggests Whip V non Whip racing in the NH has an advantage of @3L to the Whip...who knew neddies try harder when smacked?? But it's an awful aesthetic...apart from the unfairness of winning against the rules...hello Melbourne Cup So the new Racing Victoria Whip rule was turned down by Racing Australia today...but expect its introduction specifically for Victoria soon az...because they're VERY determined Us? Well continue in our own wee World with the likes of Opee smacking mounts 20 times and keeping the race... Integrity NZ Style But revision is out for consultation by NZTR as we speak isn't it? "NZTR is interested in the views of racing participants, fans and other interested parties on: the general proposition that the use of the whip be further restricted with effect from mid to late 2021, and that in a further 3-5 years, be again restricted to a point where it can only be carried for the purposes of ‘safety and control’." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Process of consultation and NZTR consideration: Consultation is sought from recognised industry groups, licenced participants, owners, and other interested parties. The close of the consultation period will be 12 February 2021. NZTR Management will consider feedback and prepare recommendations to meetings of the NZTR Integrity and Welfare Committee and the NZTR Board (March and April 2021). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 No.19 - 18-11-20 - NZTR Circular FY21 - Whip Use Consultation.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 22 hours ago, curious said: But revision is out for consultation by NZTR as we speak isn't it? "NZTR is interested in the views of racing participants, fans and other interested parties on: the general proposition that the use of the whip be further restricted with effect from mid to late 2021, and that in a further 3-5 years, be again restricted to a point where it can only be carried for the purposes of ‘safety and control’." Hello is specsavers calling?? I posted this on the 12th...they came out with their document on the 20th... ...which I posted 3 posts ago... Keep up big c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: Hello is specsavers calling?? I posted this on the 12th...they came out with their document on the 20th... ...which I posted 3 posts ago... Keep up big c It's all about you Thomarss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Quite frankly I can't understand why we are even bothering with this process - let alone moving towards banning whips. It is all based on the assumption that Society as a whole gives a toss. When in actual fact it is the furthest thing from their minds. Banning whips is NOT going to bring people back on course every day of the week. What it will do is put more doubt in the minds of the punter. The Ormsby "Soft Hands" thread is a case in point. If you believe that it will stop the activists then you are dreaming. They aren't anti-whips, anti-horse fatalities - they are ANTI-RACING fullstop! So why give an inch when that is their agenda? This morning there was a SAFE spokesman on the radio commenting about the good news that there were "40% less greyhound fatalities" this year (he was too thick to understand that it might have had something to do with less races)....BUT what was his next comment - "yes it is a start but we need to ban dog racing completely". My advice to you all is DON'T GIVE AN INCH. Instead promote all the good things about racing. Do you know how silly all this BS has got? Check out the new Topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 Racing has to keep up with society throughout the World I'm afraid... ..a few years back 'Bullying' was widely accepted in the workplace and if you didn't like it then "harden the f up" The same goes with 'bullying' horses with a whip to make them run faster Just let that sink in...Imagine having to whip an animal to make them run faster so owners get xtra money... The narrative over the Whip is largely..."it's the sound that ignites the 'flight' response..they feel no pain" Great...give Jocks a button to push that goes 'bang bang' then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Speaking of Bullying Thomas, did you see your esteemed CEO of NZTR has had his tenure extended. Announced by none other than one Cameron George an expat of note.......note........Kate Goodrich the bullied Oz lady trainer who won her case in the high court will be amused by this announcement.....google her Thomas and read about the bullying allegations.......there is an Aussie mafia at work, I wonder where it could be? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share Posted December 11, 2020 Sorry missed this Joe.....I caught up with her on twitter the other day and she mentioned this again...must read up about it when I get some minutes! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share Posted December 11, 2020 So the NZ Trainers Assoc have been in RIU ear to revert to simple fines for Whip breakers.. The worst offender is Brett Murray btw.... Totally ignored the rule last week of 5 strikes before the 100M After 12 strikes..he got up to run 2nd...by a nose WTF is the Integrity in allowing him to keep that placing with such a blatant display of illegal riding? Remember the evidence of Whip/non Whip racing shows @ a 3l advantage to Whip use #intrgritynzstyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 So NZTR were one of the first signatories to the IFHA new Whip guidelines back in January... This Guideline gives examples of use of the whip which are prohibited: - Using the whip to the extent of causing injury.- Using the whip with the arm above shoulder height.- Using the whip with excessive force.- Using the whip on a horse which is showing no response.- The continued use of the whip on a horse after its chance of winning or being placed is clearly gone.- The unnecessary use of the whip on a horse that has clearly won its race or has obtained its maximum placing.- Using the whip on a horse which is past the winning post.- Using the whip on the flank of the horse.- Using the whip with excessive frequency.- Using the whip on any part of the horse's head or in the vicinity of the head.- The use of the whip in front of the saddle while the whip is held in the forehand position, unless exceptional circumstances prevail. Strangely when sending out their latest missive on this...the Whipping on the Flank is missing Why? Because this is a massive problem in NZ...no wonder they run faster by @3L...horses are VERY sensitive there as horsemen know... Here's a shot of J Parkes last Saturday....the last time ANY Jock got warned about flank Whipping was.....NEVER No wonder NZTR conveniently left it off the missive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 Just now, Thomass said: So NZTR were one of the first signatories to the IFHA new Whip guidelines back in January... This Guideline gives examples of use of the whip which are prohibited: - Using the whip to the extent of causing injury.- Using the whip with the arm above shoulder height.- Using the whip with excessive force.- Using the whip on a horse which is showing no response.- The continued use of the whip on a horse after its chance of winning or being placed is clearly gone.- The unnecessary use of the whip on a horse that has clearly won its race or has obtained its maximum placing.- Using the whip on a horse which is past the winning post.- Using the whip on the flank of the horse.- Using the whip with excessive frequency.- Using the whip on any part of the horse's head or in the vicinity of the head.- The use of the whip in front of the saddle while the whip is held in the forehand position, unless exceptional circumstances prevail. Strangely when sending out their latest missive on this...the Whipping on the Flank is missing Why? Because this is a massive problem in NZ...no wonder they run faster by @3L...horses are VERY sensitive there as horsemen know... Here's a shot of J Parkes last Saturday....the last time ANY Jock got warned about flank Whipping was.....NEVER No wonder NZTR conveniently left it off the missive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 How did they leave that off? The generous side of me thinks it is a mistake, a clerical error, or something. Or, do they simply not realise that people, I mean punters, owners and trainers are reluctant to participate in NZ racing because of the lack of integrity and robust anti-cruelty measures? This is what the NZTR guidelines say by way of comparison, though I'd say striking a horse on the flank might be covered under vii. Either way, not much use if not policed. Notwithstanding the above, it will also be deemed to be unacceptable where a rider uses the drawn whip: i(i) when a horse is out of contention. ii(ii) when a horse is showing no response. iii(iii) when a horse has no reasonable prospect of improving or losing its position. iv(iv) when a horse is clearly winning. v(v) after passing the winning post. vi(vi) using the whip with the arm above shoulder height. vii(vii) causing injury to the horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 I reckon the blokes at Petone need some flank whipping, you reckon? a bit of pain for a bit of gain, can I garnish some support? after all they show very little response, they are way out of contention, and have little chance of passing the winning post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, curious said: i(i) when a horse is out of contention. Don't know how many times a i watch a horse at the back of the field and drifting and the jock is still hitting it behind the saddle , my wife will attest to me regularly yelling at the TV telling a jockey to stop hitting the poor bloody animal , and if it's been beaten because of a poor ride , i.e. the jocks left wide in the open i'm often suggesting they put it round their own arse . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 minute ago, nomates said: Don't know how many times a i watch a horse at the back of the field and drifting and the jock is still hitting it behind the saddle , my wife will attest to me regularly yelling at the TV telling a jockey to stop hitting the poor bloody animal , and if it's been beaten because of a poor ride , i.e. the jocks left wide in the open i'm often suggesting they put it round their own arse . And its getting worse. I recall Dave Kerr telling me that ' you could throw your colours in the jockeys' room and it didn't matter who picked them up ' .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Freda said: And its getting worse. I recall Dave Kerr telling me that ' you could throw your colours in the jockeys' room and it didn't matter who picked them up ' .... Or spend minutes trying to get thru to them how best to ride your horse . Bumped into a couple of guys i know today , they race a horse together , 7 starts , 1 win , 4 placings , but they are still pulling their hair out as they reckon the horse has still to be ridden to instruction in even one of the 7 races . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 14 hours ago, curious said: How did they leave that off? The generous side of me thinks it is a mistake, a clerical error, or something. Or, do they simply not realise that people, I mean punters, owners and trainers are reluctant to participate in NZ racing because of the lack of integrity and robust anti-cruelty measures? This is what the NZTR guidelines say by way of comparison, though I'd say striking a horse on the flank might be covered under vii. Either way, not much use if not policed. Notwithstanding the above, it will also be deemed to be unacceptable where a rider uses the drawn whip: i(i) when a horse is out of contention. ii(ii) when a horse is showing no response. iii(iii) when a horse has no reasonable prospect of improving or losing its position. iv(iv) when a horse is clearly winning. v(v) after passing the winning post. vi(vi) using the whip with the arm above shoulder height. vii(vii) causing injury to the horse. Yea na probably...drawing a long bow to say it's caused an injury... ..maybe welt marks from the non padded segment which invariably comes into play with flank whipping? Im picking Burns showed the RIU who said..."f off, that happens in every race and we're far too busy already counting strikes...especially with Opee riding" The other thing about this business is the psychology of the horse when 'showing them the Whip' A common event when 'keeping them up to the mark' after the bash If the narrative of "it doesn't hurt" comes into the psyche they're surely not showing them because of the noise aspect.....but warning them they'll hurt them more if they don't keep going? Its all "it doesn't hurt but the noise" If so just insert an audio segment of padded Whip 'noise' in the crop and place it close to the lug...if the Jock has a high pitched voice and can't yell hard out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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