nomates Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: As opposed to your approach where you want to blame someone? Don't believe i have said anywhere that i wanted to blame someone , i have said where practable mitigate the risk , i have also said i understand that you can't mitigate for every eventuality . Are you saying that if you lost your child in situation where it could have been prevented that you would cop it if some bureaucrat turned around and said , " yea well the cost outwieghed the risk , sorry ". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Basil said: I'm afraid that's completely wrong (although it does seem to be a very common error these days, so you're not alone). The cost of any expenditure always has to be weighed against its expected benefits, which in this case is the infinitesimal risk of a horse doing what you suggest multiplied by the value of a statistical life. I'd be very surprised if this were anywhere close to the fence cost, but perhaps you have some data that suggest differently. About cost? You could say the 1.5B spend far outweighs the expected benefit of saving lives in the unlikely event a cataclysmic quake wipes Wellington out...while people are working... The calculation by NZTA of a life is $4.7M.... I'm sure Any Horseman would agree that a chest high fence around a racing perimeter being the only protection for the general public isn't acceptable... ...it's happened twice now within a number of months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: About cost? You could say the 1.5B spend far outweighs the expected benefit of saving lives in the unlikely event a cataclysmic quake wipes Wellington out...while people are working... But it won't prevent ALL deaths for ALL earthquakes i.e. a financial tradeoff has to be made. Note the deaths in the Christchurch Earthquake occurred in the aftershock which was of significantly lower magnitude than the main earthquake that occurred nearly 5 months earlier. 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: I'm sure Any Horseman would agree that a chest high fence around a racing perimeter being the only protection for the general public isn't acceptable... No it appears that the only person saying it is you. I doubt that "mAny Horseman", of which you seem to know very few, would push to increase industry costs to mitigate a risk that is very very small. 14 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...it's happened twice now within a number of months... 19 months to be exact. Of those TWO instances how many involved the horses jumping the outside fence into the viewing public? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 16 minutes ago, nomates said: Are you saying that if you lost your child in situation where it could have been prevented that you would cop it if some bureaucrat turned around and said , " yea well the cost outwieghed the risk , sorry ". "Where it could have been prevented" is the key. Arguably you could "prevent" any ACCIDENT other than an act of God. Ban motor vehicles and that will prevent road deaths. Ban horse racing and save Jockey's lives. Don't worry that they will have limited career choices going forward! Where do you draw the line in terms of "prevention"? Some schools cut down trees in their school yards to stop children climbing them - didn't stop the kids climbing trees on their way home from school. I remember one Principal challenged about a boy falling from a tree and breaking his arm - "will you cut the tree down?" Reply - no. "what about the poor boy who broke his arm?" Reply - I doubt he will do it again. Many schools closed their swimming pools because of the new H & S rules, new Board of Trustee liabilities and the Education Department cutting funding. Outcome - kids not learning to swim at school. Unintended consequence - more children drowning outside of school because they can't swim. How many spectators have been killed attending the races? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: "Where it could have been prevented" is the key Thats why i said it , we are both on the same side of the fence . My point being that a lot of decisions are made by pinheads in a windowless room who wont bear any consequences of his cost to risk decision . 31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Ban motor vehicles and that will prevent road deaths. Ban horse racing and save Jockey's lives. Don't worry that they will have limited career choices going forward! That's why we have rules around both , but as in anything you can't mitigate for every situation , drunk / speeding drivers , Jockeys who aren't capabale , but people do these things by choice , hopefully understanding the risks . As for the principle , he deserves a pat on the back , he's measuring risk v reward , the risk , a broken arm , the reward , hopefully an understanding by the kid of risk . It's not an all one way or all the other , balance , that's all that is required . So i'm stopping at this stage because i am not Thomas , and i am happy to share the bone with you . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 9 hours ago, Thomass said: About cost? You could say the 1.5B spend far outweighs the expected benefit of saving lives in the unlikely event a cataclysmic quake wipes Wellington out...while people are working... The calculation by NZTA of a life is $4.7M.... I'm sure Any Horseman would agree that a chest high fence around a racing perimeter being the only protection for the general public isn't acceptable... ...it's happened twice now within a number of months... Sorry, you seem to have missed the point. The calculation I described is: p.$4.7mill - C where p is the probability of a horse jumping the current fence and killing someone, and C is the cost of building the sort of fence you describe. I don't know what p is, but since the event's never happened it's obviously very small. So let's be generous and say it's 0.1%. Then the expected benefits are $4700 — could your fence be built for less than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 What you/we deem impracticable cost vs risk mitigation may be viewed in a very different manner by H & S especially if a death is involved. We have a situation here where lighting is very inadequate, even for those walking horses to the track. The fact that most just deal with it and put up with working horses in the dark, doesn't make the situation acceptable. If someone is hurt as a result of this ongoing situation the fallout could be significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Freda said: What you/we deem impracticable cost vs risk mitigation may be viewed in a very different manner by H & S especially if a death is involved. It may be viewed differently but that doesn't make Worksafe's view the correct one. However the chances of a frightened out of control horse causing death and carnage amongst the public on a race day is very very slim. There is ample evidence to support that. Any investigation would show that all practicable prevention measures had been taken after a risk assessment had been done. 3 hours ago, Freda said: We have a situation here where lighting is very inadequate, even for those walking horses to the track. This is a real issue and contrary to what one poster says IS a DIFFERENT one. Essentially Trainers and Clubs are knowingly forcing employees into a dangerous situation. We see Trackwork Riders of widely varying skill and experience riding 500kg often immature horses onto a dodgy surface that they can't see. Wearing a tiny LED light on their helmets not to help them see where they are going but to make sure that others can see them coming or going. The questions that arise from that are: Why train at all in the dark? Why the early starts? Is it just custom or are there other reasons? This debate is going on in Australia at the moment forced by the difficulty in getting staff to get up at 3am for a 4am start. One reason given is that the Club track maintenance workers require work to be finished by mid-morning so they can go about THEIR work. Seems arse about face to me. The irony in NZ is we don't seem to get much work done anyway! Why not wait until that big light in the sky rises in the East instead of spending more money that we don't have on artificial lighting? One reason is our industry is such that Trainers have other jobs to get to after working their horses. Why are the training and racing track surface so crap? We all know the reasons for that - lack of investment in the right places. An unlighted AWT isn't going to solve the first two problems. If we can't get a sand training track right or the plough right how the hell are we going to keep a sophisticated surface, that requires constant maintenance and care, up to scratch? Meanwhile doing nothing about the main racing surface. Why are local trainers scared to express their opinions and get improvements? After all without them there are no Racing Clubs. Are the customers of the services that Clubs provide not adequately represented on the governance of those clubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: But it won't prevent ALL deaths for ALL earthquakes i.e. a financial tradeoff has to be made. Note the deaths in the Christchurch Earthquake occurred in the aftershock which was of significantly lower magnitude than the main earthquake that occurred nearly 5 months earlier. No it appears that the only person saying it is you. I doubt that "mAny Horseman", of which you seem to know very few, would push to increase industry costs to mitigate a risk that is very very small. 19 months to be exact. Of those TWO instances how many involved the horses jumping the outside fence into the viewing public? Wtf? The second quake was almost in the City centre...the other was at Darfield ffs... According to you the founding Racing fathers made a massive expensive mistake building an extra perimeter fence other than an outside racing rail... ...pffffft Just 2 months ago yet another horse failed to take the Te Aroha bend out of the straight and went clean over the outside rail.... ...thankfully TA had an extra fence to capture an out of control horse You seem to be under the impression that NP had an extra fence besides the racing rail.... ....tell moi that isn't true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thomass said: Wtf? The second quake was almost in the City centre...the other was at Darfield ffs... You are an IDIOT. The first quake was 7.1 magnitude. The second 6.3. Do you understand the Richter Scale? In your case it is a bit like the Sphincter Scale. The first quake was nearly 33 times the strength of the second which more than makes up for the 30km distance. If you think the first didn't weaken the buildings and infrastructure of Christchurch City then you are a moron. 10 minutes ago, Thomass said: Just 2 months ago yet another horse failed to take the Te Aroha bend out of the straight and went clean over the outside rail.... ...thankfully TA had an extra fence to capture an out of control horse WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A MEMBER OF PUBLIC ATTENDING A RACE MEETING IN NEW ZEALAND SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED IN NEW ZEALAND? So you will be putting large fences around Polo Fields - I mean you must feel really really scared when you attend those? Or the show jumping arena at the local A & P show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 10 hours ago, Basil said: Sorry, you seem to have missed the point. The calculation I described is: p.$4.7mill - C where p is the probability of a horse jumping the current fence and killing someone, and C is the cost of building the sort of fence you describe. I don't know what p is, but since the event's never happened it's obviously very small. So let's be generous and say it's 0.1%. Then the expected benefits are $4700 — could your fence be built for less than that? Well done you took Year 7 Maths.... Methinks you know p very well because you appear to be on it... Not requiring clubs to have an extra boundary fence other than a running rail is Balmy Army...and your Its Band Conductor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thomass said: Not requiring clubs to have an extra boundary fence other than a running rail is Balmy Army...and your Its Band Conductor 11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A MEMBER OF PUBLIC ATTENDING A RACE MEETING IN NEW ZEALAND SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED IN NEW ZEALAND? SHOW US THE EVIDENCE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Interesting how the two cases you highlight in both instances have things in common. Both wore blinkers. I guess when you restrict a horses vision from 180 degrees to 30 degrees they are going to panic. The Pomare horse (LAURAMIA) escaped by going through the birdcage fence. Do you want THREE fences 10ft high around the birdcage? Hell why not make it a real birdcage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Back to a real issue! 3 hours ago, Freda said: What you/we deem impracticable cost vs risk mitigation may be viewed in a very different manner by H & S especially if a death is involved. It may be viewed differently but that doesn't make Worksafe's view the correct one. However the chances of a frightened out of control horse causing death and carnage amongst the public on a race day is very very slim. There is ample evidence to support that. Any investigation would show that all practicable prevention measures had been taken after a risk assessment had been done. 3 hours ago, Freda said: We have a situation here where lighting is very inadequate, even for those walking horses to the track. This is a real issue and contrary to what one poster says IS a DIFFERENT one. Essentially Trainers and Clubs are knowingly forcing employees into a dangerous situation. We see Trackwork Riders of widely varying skill and experience riding 500kg often immature horses onto a dodgy surface that they can't see. Wearing a tiny LED light on their helmets not to help them see where they are going but to make sure that others can see them coming or going. The questions that arise from that are: Why train at all in the dark? Why the early starts? Is it just custom or are there other reasons? This debate is going on in Australia at the moment forced by the difficulty in getting staff to get up at 3am for a 4am start. One reason given is that the Club track maintenance workers require work to be finished by mid-morning so they can go about THEIR work. Seems arse about face to me. The irony in NZ is we don't seem to get much work done anyway! Why not wait until that big light in the sky rises in the East instead of spending more money that we don't have on artificial lighting? One reason is our industry is such that Trainers have other jobs to get to after working their horses. Why are the training and racing track surface so crap? We all know the reasons for that - lack of investment in the right places. An unlighted AWT isn't going to solve the first two problems. If we can't get a sand training track right or the plough right how the hell are we going to keep a sophisticated surface, that requires constant maintenance and care, up to scratch? Meanwhile doing nothing about the main racing surface. Why are local trainers scared to express their opinions and get improvements? After all without them there are no Racing Clubs. Are the customers of the services that Clubs provide not adequately represented on the governance of those clubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: You are an IDIOT. The first quake was 7.1 magnitude. The second 6.3. Do you understand the Richter Scale? In your case it is a bit like the Sphincter Scale. The first quake was nearly 33 times the strength of the second which more than makes up for the 30km distance. If you think the first didn't weaken the buildings and infrastructure of Christchurch City then you are a moron. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A MEMBER OF PUBLIC ATTENDING A RACE MEETING IN NEW ZEALAND SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED IN NEW ZEALAND? So you will be putting large fences around Polo Fields - I mean you must feel really really scared when you attend those? Or the show jumping arena at the local A & P show? Seriously, you have FAR too much time on your hands.... Just some FACTS rather than fake... The Darfield one was TWICE the depth and almost half the Peak Ground Accelleration...All adding up to the inevitable STRONGER overall main quake... The POINT that you don't get is the fact the public go to SOME sporting events entering at their own risk... In this case unsuspecting members of the public going about their business were under threat from a runaway panicked horse...after somersaulting ONE chest high rail Thats unacceptable in ANYONES lingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Hey guys , you know what i said above about sharing the bone , well even the bone is putting up the white flag . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 40 minutes ago, Thomass said: In this case unsuspecting members of the public going about their business were under threat from a runaway panicked horse...after somersaulting ONE chest high rail 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A MEMBER OF PUBLIC ATTENDING A RACE MEETING IN NEW ZEALAND SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED IN NEW ZEALAND? So you will be putting large fences around Polo Fields - I mean you must feel really really scared when you attend those? Or the show jumping arena at the local A & P show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 So this is the PATHETIC fence between a panicked horse and an unsuspecting public... ...somersault over, down the bank then run a km away into a children's playground... At least they could look up the latest research into the ideal paint colours that attracts a horse's eye... ..flouro yellow/ white combo...draped with painted flouro ply...instead of see through wire....especially around the bends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: At least they could look up the latest research into the ideal paint colours that attracts a horse's eye... ..flouro yellow/ white combo...draped with painted flouro ply...instead of see through wire....especially around the bends Wouldn't matter what type fence or colour it was if you blindfolded the poor horse so that its vision was cut from 180 degrees to 30 degrees or less. Try putting a blindfold on Thomass and guess what colour this is: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 28, 2021 Author Share Posted February 28, 2021 All the more reason to double fence the joint... The Pa down the road during the Maori Wars had a better stop/Go system in place... That 'fence' as a last DEfence is a dinky dye joke.. ...wait until Worksafe see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, Thomass said: All the more reason to double fence the joint... The Pa down the road during the Maori Wars had a better stop/Go system in place... That 'fence' as a last DEfence is a dinky dye joke.. ...wait until Worksafe see it You are pathetic Thomarse. Get on the 0800 BE A SNITCH phone - call Worksafe send them your photo's - make a complaint. Drive another nail in the coffin of NZ racing. For what? Your ego? Because it has nothing - zilch, zip, nada to do with safety. You still have't answered this question: On 25/02/2021 at 11:15 AM, Chief Stipe said: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A MEMBER OF PUBLIC ATTENDING A RACE MEETING IN NEW ZEALAND SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED IN NEW ZEALAND? Idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickintheKods Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 18 hours ago, Thomass said: So this is the PATHETIC fence between a panicked horse and an unsuspecting public... ...somersault over, down the bank then run a km away into a children's playground... At least they could look up the latest research into the ideal paint colours that attracts a horse's eye... ..flouro yellow/ white combo...draped with painted flouro ply...instead of see through wire....especially around the bends Arse, I have a suggestion. Why don't you take your crayons and go and do the job for them. That should take up at least the next three or four months and save on my Panadol bill - I have to take a couple after reading your crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 2, 2021 Author Share Posted March 2, 2021 Boyz...you're forgetting Humanoid eyesight and equine are as different as fillet and chuck.... Alors...to a horse...the wide open Sea view that you see there is blending in perfectly with the white rail...that she hit at speed without 'seeing' then somersaulted... A bit like newbies at HQ as they come around the home turn... ...a wide expanse suddenly opens up and they drift around like drunken sailors... That 'fence' is TOTALLY unacceptable as a last line of defence let alone a first line.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: Alors...to a horse...the wide open Sea view that you see there is blending in perfectly with the white rail...that she hit at speed without 'seeing' then somersaulted... She had bloody blinkers on! Do you think that was a factor it what you could see? Blinkers reduce a horse's range of vision down to 17% of their normal range. No wonder she couldn't see the fence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 2, 2021 Author Share Posted March 2, 2021 Wtf are you going on about peripheral vision when she's galloping straight for the open sea...midships? Are you suggesting ALL horses at NP should race without them? Or should they simply erect an extra fence on the bends as a last resort.. So playgrounds don't get tormented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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