Horace Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 I'm just a poor boy, raised on grits and beans, till the soil and feed a few beasts... Can't follow this-maybe some 'events' in the next few days will clarify things? SO...a trainer with several horses racing on a ' big' day, wins with 3 or 4, all get swabbed. One swab comes back positive to 'm' ( lets say) and the excuse is...' oh yeah but the hay we've got had poppies in it, must have caused that positive! I'm innocent as the day as long, you feds have got it all wrong!! Now, even a dumb boy like me has to ask..' if you were feeding hay with poppies in it to your horses, how come the other 3 or 4 winners that day didn't show traces of 'm'?? After the riu swallowed the bullshit cobalt story a few years back, do they follow the leader and believe this bullshit? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Only if they follow the , hear no evil , see no evil , speak no evil mantra . Or they are gullible , which is a strong possibility . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Horace said: I'm just a poor boy, raised on grits and beans, till the soil and feed a few beasts... Can't follow this-maybe some 'events' in the next few days will clarify things? SO...a trainer with several horses racing on a ' big' day, wins with 3 or 4, all get swabbed. One swab comes back positive to 'm' ( lets say) and the excuse is...' oh yeah but the hay we've got had poppies in it, must have caused that positive! I'm innocent as the day as long, you feds have got it all wrong!! Now, even a dumb boy like me has to ask..' if you were feeding hay with poppies in it to your horses, how come the other 3 or 4 winners that day didn't show traces of 'm'?? After the riu swallowed the bullshit cobalt story a few years back, do they follow the leader and believe this bullshit? Let me clear it up for you, if the hay has a tinge of tangerine in it nothing to see here ...simple as that really. I think CS got some story as to how its happened he might be able to expand on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 21 hours ago, Horace said: Now, even a dumb boy like me has to ask..' if you were feeding hay with poppies in it to your horses, how come the other 3 or 4 winners that day didn't show traces of 'm'?? You do realise Horace that 75% of your posts are attacks on Te Akau? I just thought I'd point that fact out for you. All's fair when it comes to "free speech"! Why the subterfuge in your current post? The 'cloak and dagger'? The horse in question is: Vamos Bebe Trainer: Te Akau Drug 'm' = Morphine Horace do you have news about the B sample? It isn't a positive until the B sample result is known and it is positive. How do you know that all of the Te Akau winners (6) on the day were fed hay? Not a given that all were given hay. As you yourself have declared you are fairly thick upstairs. Hay is an extremely variable product from paddock to paddock, bale to bale and even slab to slab. More than possible that even if all the horses were fed hay that not all were fed with contaminated hay. Morphine is allowed if administered by a Vet for therapeutic reasons and this is recorded as such. In this case it is clear that no such administration had occurred which then begs the question that if it is allowed to be administered under the rules of racing and there was a reason for it to be administered then why wasn't it done legally? That leads one to conclude that any administration was accidental or via cross contamination. Samples of hay were taken and were found to be contaminated with poppy seed. As far as I know there has been no publication of the level of morphine found in the blood sample. It is likely that the level was very very low. Certainly not high enough to have any therapeutic effect and certainly not any performance enhancing effect. New testing technology is so sensitive now that very minute amounts can be detected. False positives will occur especially when there is a zero tolerance level set. In the general public workforce It is a known fact that some employees have failed work place drug tests and the source has been found to be poppy seed from as limited a source as a bagel. I realise you are dumb Horace but perhaps you can enlighten us on how Morphine would be performance enhancing? So to summarise what do we have here? A horse returning an irregularity (not a positive yet) to morphine which is legal to administer to a horse for therapeutic reasons. A trainer-stable returning their first ever irregularity. The drug concerned at the level detected cannot have been performance enhancing. All good fodder (pun intended) to make hay out of nothing and start another conspiracy theory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 Well I must have missed the part in the BOAY rules where it said alls fair in love and war..except where Te akau racing, D Ellis etc are concerned. you're sounding a bit 'woke' to me chief. Thanks for opportunity to post to date but if thats the way things roll, I'd rather not have any input. Arreverderci! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't aiden o brien have to pull his arc de triomphe runners because of a morphine positive from contaminated feed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickintheKods Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Looks like Horace has got the Huff How horrific Who knew he was Italian And all because David Ellis takes morphine for a poppy cock It's weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: You do realise Horace that 75% of your posts are attacks on Te Akau? I just thought I'd point that fact out for you. All's fair when it comes to "free speech"! Why the subterfuge in your current post? The 'cloak and dagger'? The horse in question is: Vamos Bebe Trainer: Te Akau Drug 'm' = Morphine Horace do you have news about the B sample? It isn't a positive until the B sample result is known and it is positive. How do you know that all of the Te Akau winners (6) on the day were fed hay? Not a given that all were given hay. As you yourself have declared you are fairly thick upstairs. Hay is an extremely variable product from paddock to paddock, bail to bail and even slab to slab. More than possible that even if all the horses were fed hay that not all were fed with contaminated hay. Morphine is allowed if administered by a Vet for therapeutic reasons and this is recorded as such. In this case it is clear that no such administration had occurred which then begs the question that if it is allowed to be administered under the rules of racing and there was a reason for it to be administered then why wasn't it done legally? That leads one to conclude that any administration was accidental or via cross contamination. Samples of hay were taken and were found to be contaminated with poppy seed. As far as I know there has been no publication of the level of morphine found in the blood sample. It is likely that the level was very very low. Certainly not high enough to have any therapeutic effect and certainly not any performance enhancing effect. New testing technology is so sensitive now that very minute amounts can be detected. False positives will occur especially when there is a zero tolerance level set. In the general public workforce It is a known fact that some employees have failed work place drug tests and the source has been found to be poppy seed from as limited a source as a bagel. I realise you are dumb Horace but perhaps you can enlighten us on how Morphine would be performance enhancing? So to summarise what do we have here? A horse returning an irregularity (not a positive yet) to morphine which is legal to administer to a horse for therapeutic reasons. A trainer-stable returning their first ever irregularity. The drug concerned at the level detected cannot have been performance enhancing. All good fodder (pun intended) to make hay out of nothing and start another conspiracy theory! A pretty fair question from Horace to my mind, the silence around this has been deafening. To your credit CS you've had some robust discussion on it on boay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: What's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, Huey said: A pretty fair question from Horace to my mind, the silence around this has been deafening. But why does it matter? Sample B had to be tested and an investigation completed. Both take time. The silence might be because there is nothing to report yet. If you rush these things you can end up with this: ‘Right decision’: RV drops charges against trainer Racing Victoria dropped its charges against Richard Laming. Picture: AAP Image/Vince Caligiuri Gilbert Gardiner4:08PM25 February 2021 Trainer Richard Laming says Racing Victoria made the “right decision” dropping all charges against him for the alleged race-day stomach tubing Jamaican Rain in November 2019. In a brief sitting on Thursday, Brendan Murphy, QC, acting on behalf of RV, told the Victorian Racing Tribunal his “instructions are to withdraw all charges”. No reason was given for the decision. Laming faced two charges in relation to a stable inspection in November 2019, while stable hands Marnu Potgieter and Zeyaur Rahman faced one charge each for the alleged breach. Following RV’s sensational about-face, Laming’s barrister Damian Sheales, who also represented Potgieter and Rhaman, requested all charges be dismissed rather than withdrawn. VRT chairman Judge John Bowman granted the unopposed application. “We were very confident, even before the case started, we done nothing wrong,” Laming told News Australia and Racenet on Thursday. Richard Laming is keen to move on after having charges dropped. Picture: AAP “I don’t want to talk out of school and mention anything but there was something there that wasn’t right and their barristers picked up on it and made the right decision.” The relieved 38-year-old continued. “It dragged out for a long time and it’s very good for my family and friends and loyal clients, it’s good to have it behind us now,” Laming said. “It affects your business, it affects everything, it‘s great to have it behind us to be honest. “We can get on and train horses. “My team has gone down in size, obviously, while the case was running, a lot of owners don’t want to support you while you’ve got that hanging over your head, now it’s behind us it’s great.” The snap withdrawal followed an RV-led decision on Wednesday to halt proceedings midway through the five-day hearing, with Murphy citing information that could put the tribunal in “a difficult position”. “I am making application that the matter be adjourned until tomorrow, but I will not indicate the basis of that application,” Murphy told the VRT on Wednesday. “In our professional view it would be very dangerous to ignore the circumstances and it would put the tribunal ultimately, I would have thought, in a difficult position.” Laming, allowed to train on a stay of proceedings, plans to appeal the three-month ban he received last week from the VRT for a cobalt presentation charge. “Once again, we’re very confident of the right outcome there,” Laming said. “It should’ve been a harsh fine in our opinion, and that’s probably what it should be and it wasn’t, we’ll definitely be appealing and we’re definitely confident there.” Racing Victoria declined to comment on Thursday. GELAGOTIS CLEARED ON DRENCHING COUNT The Victorian Racing Tribunal has dismissed charges against trainer Peter Gelagotis, unable to be “comfortably satisfied” he illegally administered an alkalising agent on the horse Strong Influence. Citing interviews stewards conducted from June 2019 and evidence heard by the tribunal last year, Judge John Bowman deemed Gelagotis, stable staff and the horse’s owner as “witnesses of truth”. In a pre-race blood test taken at Sandown in June 26 2019, Strong Influence, who ran third on the day, returned a reading of 37.8 millimoles per litre in plasma on a threshold of 36 millimoles. Trainer Peter Gelagotis had a win at the Victorian racing Tribunal. Picture: Getty Images In its decision, which included a lengthy summary of evidence heard, the VRT said “the cause of the high reading remains a mystery”. It also discounted “undocumented administration” within one clear day of the positive swab. “Even if that is so, the question remains, by whom?” the decision reads. “Further, can we be comfortably satisfied that the administration was by Mr Gelagotis or on his orders? Was it done with his knowledge? “In our opinion, we cannot be comfortably satisfied that the evidence supports a conclusion that any administration was done by Mr Gelagotis, on his orders or with his knowledge.” The tribunal said speculation the illegal stomach drenching was done by someone with a grudge or vendetta against Gelagotis “has led nowhere”. A penalty in relation to the lesser charge – detection of a prohibited substance – Gelagotis pleaded guilty to will be handed down at a later date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 33 minutes ago, Horace said: Well I must have missed the part in the BOAY rules where it said alls fair in love and war..except where Te akau racing, D Ellis etc are concerned. you're sounding a bit 'woke' to me chief. Thanks for opportunity to post to date but if thats the way things roll, I'd rather not have any input. Arreverderci! You can post what and when you want. But that doesn't change the fact that 75% of your posts are attacking Te Akau. If you are offended by me pointing out that fact then so be it. Only you can answer the reason why for that statistic. As for me being "woke" you couldn't be further from the truth. I've stated many times that there are things about Te Akau's dominance that I don't like and dominance isn't necessarily good for the industry. But that isn't Te Akau's fault but more their skill and professionalism that has got them to the top of the heap in New Zealand. Our sport would be a lot lot worse off without them. So an irregularity was found in testing of one of their winners. The reality is the substance found offers no performance enhancement and is legally able to be administered to a horse as a therapeutic. Big deal! These types of things happen every week in Australia. Check out this website for what happens in Queensland racing. https://qric.qld.gov.au/2021/02/?post_type=report Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 53 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't aiden o brien have to pull his arc de triomphe runners because of a morphine positive from contaminated feed ? Zilpaterol. It is a feed additive that is given to cattle to improve their weight gain performance. The feed company that O'Brien used notified equine trainers that there was the possibility of contamination. O'Brien then tested his horses and they returned positives. He decided to scratch even though it was unlikely that the horses would have returned positives by race time as it takes only three days for the additive disappear from the body. This contamination not only affected O'Brien but a number of Trainers in EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: What's your point? My point is they didn't wait to see sample b. Every drug has a certain withdrawal period whether it's 24 hours or two months, and as for morphine look up sir micheal Stoute, ok it's not a performance enhancer but its still a pain killer anyone and everyone can administer such substances, I'm not targeting te akau here but if it was poppy seeds in the hay that is a good excuse to get away with it this time around, At the end of the day what would you be saying if it was Bute, ibuprofen or paracetamol all have different withdrawal times but would they of got in the hay without a helping hand? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 43 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: My point is they didn't wait to see sample b. But your point is irrelevant. O'Brien tested his OWN horses after being informed that there was contaminated feed. More than one horse returned a positive. Completely different to this current case. They didn't know before the test was done that the hay was contaminated. Once the irregularity was discovered there is a predetermined process to follow. If you don't follow that process then there goes any integrity. Although unlikely it is possible that the first sample was contaminated by any number of ways hence having a B sample. 43 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: I'm not targeting te akau here but if it was poppy seeds in the hay that is a good excuse to get away with it this time around, I may be wrong but I think if morphine is administered by a vet for therapeutic reasons there is no withholding period. 43 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: At the end of the day what would you be saying if it was Bute, ibuprofen or paracetamol all have different withdrawal times but would they of got in the hay without a helping hand? Entirely different scenario and as far as I know none of those substances are feed additives or possible feed contaminants. The "poppy seed" reason is plausible unfortunately it also has a sensational aspect to it. Hence the conspiracy theories arising. We also don't know the level of morphine found. I would expect it to be very very low otherwise the poppy seed reason wouldn't hold. A horse would have to eat a shyte load to get any pain relief. Now if the RIU or the owners want to spend some money the samples could be tested further and a chemical signature identified that would indicate the possible source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Now of you all really want to get your teeth into something try this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 On 2/26/2021 at 3:21 PM, Chief Stipe said: I may be wrong but I think if morphine is administered by a vet for therapeutic reasons there is no withholding period You are very wrong it is a prohibited drug for race day and trials, and if my point is irrelevant your whole paragraph is completely irrelevant and it seems noone else on this site can ever have an opinion on anything because your opinion is the only thing that matters, or that everyone else that does comment is wrong and only you are right. Now if this was a post about Godolphin or some other trainer you would be slamming them. No wonder racing nz is stuffed people like you can't see past there own nose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 7 hours ago, Nostradamus said: You are very wrong it is a prohibited drug for race day and trials, Yes it is prohibited under section A of the Prohibited Substances Rules but then explain paragraph 6 where it says different. They are prohibited on any day including race day and trials BUT have an exemption if used for therapeutic use and prescribed by a vet. Now that is where there is a gap in the rules. You seem to be across it all - feel free to explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 27, 2021 Share Posted February 27, 2021 8 hours ago, Nostradamus said: it seems noone else on this site can ever have an opinion on anything because your opinion is the only thing that matters, or that everyone else that does comment is wrong and only you are right. Now if this was a post about Godolphin or some other trainer you would be slamming them. No wonder racing nz is stuffed people like you can't see past there own nose. You overlook the fact that you were able to express your opinion. I disagree with that opinion. So what? On other channels you would be banned. If "NZ Racing is stuffed" as you say then it isn't because of my opinions. I find it ironic that you are quick to put the boot in and post a negative narrative about Trainers based solely on opinion rather than fact. Or indeed before having full access to the facts. Hell it was only a few days ago that you called the Riccarton Track Manager - "a lazy joke of a groundsman". In an earlier post you launched an attack on David Ellis - "he is all take take take ....puts nothing back into the industry".... Yet you overlook the sponsorship of races and the sponsorship and resurrection of Weigh In. Isn't that giving back? Don't forget that the giving back is sourced from having a very competitive product to sell and from winning. Certainly not from the over paid low performing administrators tit. Over the years I've been very consistent in who I direct my opinions and criticisms at for the state of NZ racing. The target has consistently been the administrators NOT those with real skin in the game - trainers, owner and jockey's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I'm still scratching my head on how they tested the one section of hay the horse already ate to say that it had poppy seeds in it and only the ONE section of hay from a bale that would have between 10 to 15 slices. Because the last time I saw hay cut and flipped to dry it would have spread all through it. If the vet administered it as a therapeutic need then it is a short term pain killer and muscle relaxant that would of been administered no longer than 24 hours prior to the race to have any said effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 40 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: I'm still scratching my head on how they tested the one section of hay the horse already ate to say that it had poppy seeds in it and only the ONE section of hay from a bale that would have between 10 to 15 slices. Because the last time I saw hay cut and flipped to dry it would have spread all through it. Spread all through what? One slab, two slabs, the whole bale, several bales? In a field the poppy plants would have been few in number and confined to a small area. Otherwise the plants would have been detected. The poppy plants have pods which contain the seeds. When the field was cut the pods were likely green and dried as part of the hay making process. That drying may not have been completed. The pods being heavier than the grass would not have travelled far during the drying process. Therefore it is conceivable that the contamination was limited to a few bales at most. They didn't test the one section of the bale that had already been eaten for obvious reasons. However they did test bales and returned a positive. The very nature of harvesting and stacking hay using machinery means that you don't get randomised distribution of bales I.e. bales from one area are still grouped together. Also the hay from the one source wasn't fed to the other barns where the other horses that races on 26 December were housed. Also they were able to review movements of horses, personnel and feed via camera recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 37 minutes ago, Nostradamus said: . If the vet administered it as a therapeutic need then it is a short term pain killer and muscle relaxant that would of been administered no longer than 24 hours prior to the race to have any said effect There was no vet administration of morphine to Vamos Bebe during the preceding days leading up to raceday. 24 hours prior to raceday and those competing horses are essentially put into lockdown and closely monitored to the point of paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: There was no vet administration of morphine to Vamos Bebe during the preceding days leading up to raceday. 24 hours prior to raceday and those competing horses are essentially put into lockdown and closely monitored to the point of paranoia. Isn't that the point? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Just now, Huey said: Isn't that the point? You are making obtuse and art form. FFS if you are going to say something then say it. It is hard enough trying to interpret what the BOAY Village Idiot Thomarse is saying without others talking in mysterious tongues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: You are making obtuse and art form. FFS if you are going to say something then say it. It is hard enough trying to interpret what the BOAY Village Idiot Thomarse is saying without others talking in mysterious tongues! Surely youre capable of interrupting what you wrote yourself? Bit harsh on Thomas saying he has a village that's accepting of him. Edited February 28, 2021 by Huey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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