Business Case - CJC Riccarton All Weather Track - here it is!

[Chief Stipe]

20 hours ago, Freda said:

Well, if those meetings are pulled from other provincial clubs, they might.

Actually that might work shift ALL the industry days to the AWT (who cares about those horses that want soft tracks) and move the Premier days to the regions.  That way they will get better turf surfaces.

Freda will you sack those horses that require softer tracks as the AWT won't suit them?

[Freda]

17 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Actually that might work shift ALL the industry days to the AWT (who cares about those horses that want soft tracks) and move the Premier days to the regions.  That way they will get better turf surfaces.

Freda will you sack those horses that require softer tracks as the AWT won't suit them?

At this point none of us will have any idea which horses will be suited and which won't.      As a general rule - and trial and error comes into play somewhat -  trainers will run their horses in races which they feel will give them the best chance of success.

[Pitman]

18 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But costs are not covered now nor does it seem enough is spent on maintaining existing surfaces so the increase in maintenance costs from the AWT will not be offset by an additional 50 horses!!!!  Simple maths really isn't it? COSTS ARE NEVER COVERED AT TRAINING CENTRES THATS WHY THEY GET A SUBSIDY BASED ON STARTERS EACH YEAR

Strangely as evident in the ambiguity of your responses that you, as the leading trainer at Riccarton, are not privy to the business plan/case for the AWT.  I HAVE TAKEN A STEP BACK FROM TRACK MATTERS SINCE MY CANCER SCARE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO Which begs the question was there one?  I AM SURE THERE IS.  If there is one why hasn't the CJC been transparent by publishing it? SIMPLE , ASK THEM YOURSELF

A bit like the flawed premise that the AWT's were built on i.e. that they would stop the losses from abandoned meetings.  That was a myth. HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT MEETINGS WILL BE ABANDONED AT AWT THOUGH

As for the number of "extra" meetings I believe you mentioned 14+ on the AWT. LIAR I guess they will be bled from the regions.  YES THEY WILL Where the horses and more importantly the new owners are going to come from is anyone's guess.  MANY OF OUR OWNERS ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CONSISTENT SURFACE THAT AN AWT WILL PROVIDE, NOT SAYING ALL HORSES WILL BE SUITED, BUT WHAT A GREAT TRAINING AID. THE MERE FACT THAT THESE RACE DAYS WILL BE RUN LOCALLY MAY ENCOURAGE MORE PARTICIPATION AND YOU WILL KEEP MARKETING THIS FOR US.

However at this stage of the exercise we are still working on the costs not revenue. YES, BUT BE TRUTHFUL

As for me knowing everything given the number of questions I'm asking (and getting ambiguous answers) would contradict that!!!!  YOU ARE INCLINED TO EMBELLISH THE TRUTH TO SUIT YOURSELF Sadly you don't seem to have the answers either! YOU ARE 100% CORRECT I DON'T- DOES THAT WORRY ME  - NO IT DOES NOT - I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO SUPERB TRAINING FACILITIES AND RACING ON A CONSISTENT SURFACE - WILL WE HAVE MANY RACE DAY STARTERS ON THE AWT GOING FORWARD, PROBABLY NOT AS THEY WILL ONLY BE INDUSTRY DAYS WHICH APART FROM MAIDENS AND PEARL SERIES RACES WE PREFER NOT TO RUN AT

chiefly  you seem hell bent on belittling the AWT's, I don't think you have supported the installation of any let alone 3

Why do you not contact the CJC and ask them about the business plan

Please stop making things up to suit yourself, where have I ever said/quoted 14 meetings on the AWT, that's one a week for 3 and a half months. Please provide proof I said this or are you lying AGAIN! 

Yes licences will be taken from certain clubs, do I agree, NOT ENTIRELY. One club due for closure is Timaru I do not think for one minute this should happen, they have a good track good facilities and are in a good location

[Chief Stipe]

42 minutes ago, Pitman said:

chiefly  you seem hell bent on belittling the AWT's, I don't think you have supported the installation of any let alone 3

I'm not against the AWT's per se.  What I am against the rationale for having them, the lasting damage that will be done, the continual drain on resources and funding.

44 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Why do you not contact the CJC and ask them about the business plan

Pits I would have thought that as the South Island's leading trainer and presumably an able businessman with a considerable investment in racing that YOU would have the business plan at your finger tips or at the very least perused it at length.  However it is painfully obvious that you have NO IDEA!  That does not bode well for the future.

46 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Please stop making things up to suit yourself, where have I ever said/quoted 14 meetings on the AWT, that's one a week for 3 and a half months. Please provide proof I said this or are you lying AGAIN! 

Are you sure about that Pits?  I've NEVER EVER LIED - where have I lied on BOAY?

47 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Yes licences will be taken from certain clubs, do I agree, NOT ENTIRELY. One club due for closure is Timaru I do not think for one minute this should happen, they have a good track good facilities and are in a good location

But closing Timaru is the inevitable conclusion of installing the AWT at Riccarton.  Connect the dots!!!!  How else will they fund the damn AWT?  How else will they pay for the renovation of the main Turf track at Riccartion without pillaging all the other tracks in the South Island?

Pits all you can see is a big flash new shiny white elephant that makes you feel good and to hell with what once made the racing industry strong.  Take a look at what turned Canterbury around - they administrators realised they need to feed the other unions in the Super franchise and needed to keep the Club network strong.  What is racing doing?  Creating 3 bleeding great black holes that are going to suck the life out of the regions and the non-elite clubs.   

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

At this point none of us will have any idea which horses will be suited and which won't.      As a general rule - and trial and error comes into play somewhat -  trainers will run their horses in races which they feel will give them the best chance of success.

Freda I suggest you and those in the "none of us" group give Peter Moody a ring at Pakenham and ask him what horses are suited by the Polytrack.  Or ring a few of those trainers that have been working with the Cambridge AWT.

Oh and while you are on the phone ask some questions about what impact grooming the track has on the firmness of the surface and the relationship between the frequency of that grooming and the surface consistency.

I'd advise any trainer that is going to continue to train at Riccarton to do their research and adjust the type of horse they have in their stable.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

Please stop making things up to suit yourself, where have I ever said/quoted 14 meetings on the AWT, that's one a week for 3 and a half months. Please provide proof I said this or are you lying AGAIN! 

 

My apologies you posted on the forum "12 industry days run between May and September" not 14.  You intimated possibly more than 12.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

COSTS ARE NEVER COVERED AT TRAINING CENTRES THATS WHY THEY GET A SUBSIDY BASED ON STARTERS EACH YEAR

Right so Cambridge Jockey Club with a horse training population of 1,200 needs a subsidy to keep their centre going?

Doesn't bode well if training facilities need subsidisation from other parts of the industry to pay their way.  Tell what happens when you close those other tracks down that are helping to subsidise the training centres?  Who pays the bills then?

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT MEETINGS WILL BE ABANDONED AT AWT THOUGH

But there weren't scores of meetings abandoned in the South Island anyway!  On the rare occasion that meetings were abandoned they didn't cost the industry anything as they were budgeted to be abandoned and stakes weren't paid out.  NZTR never had enough funding to deliver all the meetings they put on the calendar.

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

I guess they will be bled from the regions.  YES THEY WILL

There you go everyone.  The South Island's leading trainer is being up front and honest - the rest of the clubs in the South Island will be bled to support the AWT.  Start packing you kit bags and floats and head to the promised land of Riccarton.  You might have to build your own stables in the car parks but nirvana awaits you.  Just don't expect to gallop on the main turf track.

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

MANY OF OUR OWNERS ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CONSISTENT SURFACE THAT AN AWT WILL PROVIDE, NOT SAYING ALL HORSES WILL BE SUITED, BUT WHAT A GREAT TRAINING AID. THE MERE FACT THAT THESE RACE DAYS WILL BE RUN LOCALLY MAY ENCOURAGE MORE PARTICIPATION AND YOU WILL KEEP MARKETING THIS FOR US.

I'm sure most of your owners are wanting to know when the main grass track will be renovated.  After all the races run on that course are the money and glory races run on warm sunny days.

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

YOU ARE INCLINED TO EMBELLISH THE TRUTH TO SUIT YOURSELF

Rubbish!  If I did it would be a case of pot kettle back on your part.  

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT I DON'T- DOES THAT WORRY ME  - NO IT DOES NOT - I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO SUPERB TRAINING FACILITIES AND RACING ON A CONSISTENT SURFACE - WILL WE HAVE MANY RACE DAY STARTERS ON THE AWT GOING FORWARD, PROBABLY NOT AS THEY WILL ONLY BE INDUSTRY DAYS WHICH APART FROM MAIDENS AND PEARL SERIES RACES WE PREFER NOT TO RUN AT

Pits - YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE PLAN IS!!!  Otherwise you cannot plan you own business!!!!!

Anyway you contradict yourself - on the one hand you say you will have many raceday starters on the AWT but then say probably not as they will only be industry days.  The implication is you will use the AWT for training to get your horses fit for the Premier Days on the Turf Track.  Good luck with that approach.  But make up your mind.  

[Pitman]

40 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Right so Cambridge Jockey Club with a horse training population of 1,200 needs a subsidy to keep their centre going? PROBABLY

Doesn't bode well if training facilities need subsidisation from other parts of the industry to pay their way.  Tell what happens when you close those other tracks down that are helping to subsidise the training centres?  Who pays the bills then? COMES FROM GENERAL FUND PRODUCED BY RACE DAY STARTERS 

But there weren't scores of meetings abandoned in the South Island anyway!  On the rare occasion that meetings were abandoned they didn't cost the industry anything as they were budgeted to be abandoned and stakes weren't paid out.  NZTR never had enough funding to deliver all the meetings they put on the calendar. CORRECT

There you go everyone.  The South Island's leading trainer is being up front and honest - the rest of the clubs in the South Island will be bled to support the AWT.  Start packing you kit bags and floats and head to the promised land of Riccarton.  You might have to build your own stables in the car parks but nirvana awaits you.  Just don't expect to gallop on the main turf track. I THINK THE CLUB HAS FURTHER TRAINING BLOCKS PLANNED IN THE FUTURE THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM

I'm sure most of your owners are wanting to know when the main grass track will be renovated.  After all the races run on that course are the money and glory races run on warm sunny days. NOTHING WRONG WITH RICCARTON WHEN NOT OVER IRRIGATED

Rubbish!  If I did it would be a case of pot kettle back on your part.  HAHA

Pits - YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE PLAN IS!!!  Otherwise you cannot plan you own business!!!!! I KNOW WHAT OUR PLANS ARE THATS WHY WE HAVE BOUGHT SEVERAL YOUNGSTERS IN LAST 18 MONTHS.

Anyway you contradict yourself - on the one hand you say you will have many raceday starters on the AWT but then say probably not as they will only be industry days.  The implication is you will use the AWT for training to get your horses fit for the Premier Days on the Turf Track.  Good luck with that approach.  But make up your mind.  YOU FORGET WE ARE ALSO GETTING A BRAND NEW STATE OF THE ART GALLOPING GRASS TRACK AS WELL TO TRAIN AND GALLOP ON, POSSIBLY TRIAL AS WELL.

 

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, Pitman said:

COMES FROM GENERAL FUND PRODUCED BY RACE DAY STARTERS 

It comes from revenue produced by tracks like Reefton and any other track that doesn't get industry subsidies.  Ultimately the revenue comes from the punter.  I'm not sure if the NZ punter has a choice between backing a horse on an AWT industry day at Riccarton and a nice grass turf track in OZ whether they will choose the AWT.

34 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I THINK THE CLUB HAS FURTHER TRAINING BLOCKS PLANNED IN THE FUTURE THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM

As my mum always use to say "You know what thought (think) did - nothing!"

35 minutes ago, Pitman said:

I KNOW WHAT OUR PLANS ARE THATS WHY WE HAVE BOUGHT SEVERAL YOUNGSTERS IN LAST 18 MONTHS.

But sold your best.

35 minutes ago, Pitman said:

YOU FORGET WE ARE ALSO GETTING A BRAND NEW STATE OF THE ART GALLOPING GRASS TRACK AS WELL TO TRAIN AND GALLOP ON, POSSIBLY TRIAL AS WELL.

What do you mean "State of the Art"?  How is it constructed?  Hopefully not along the lines of the past renovation's on your turf race surface.  Will it have an irrigation system that works?

You still keep avoiding answering the key question - what are the plans to renovate the main turf track for racing? 

[Freda]

33 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

You still keep avoiding answering the key question - what are the plans to renovate the main turf track for racing? 

I'm not aware [ although clearly, not being a committee member, I don't know any details going forward ] of any plans to renovate the turf track.

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Freda said:

I'm not aware [ although clearly, not being a committee member, I don't know any details going forward ] of any plans to renovate the turf track.

Freda - correct me if I'm wrong but you are:

1. A local loyal Riccarton Trainer;
2. An industry stakeholder;
3. Have made an investment (time and money) in the industry.

Surely those three attributes are sufficient for you to be informed of the plans that your investment relies on.  Why do you HAVE to be a committee member to be informed?

I just visited the CJC website - there is NOTHING on that site that clearly lays out the plans for the future nor for that matter promotes Riccarton as a future training location.  NOTHING!  https://racing.riccartonpark.nz/

Compare that to Pakenham - https://country.racing.com/pakenham/training-centre  Full transparency, a clear strategic plan, full disclosure of costs and local rules!

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

I THINK THE CLUB HAS FURTHER TRAINING BLOCKS PLANNED IN THE FUTURE THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM

I realise you are only THINKING but does the course have an equine swimming pool?  A walker?  Treadmill?  On course facilities for a visiting or permanent vet?  Good security and lighting?  Plenty of room for all those things?

[nomates]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

I realise you are only THINKING but does the course have an equine swimming pool?  A walker?  Treadmill?  On course facilities for a visiting or permanent vet?  Good security and lighting?  Plenty of room for all those things?

All of the above relies on the one vital ingredient , HORSES . Not just the ones that are there but a substantial increase in the numbers arriving to be trained there .  

It's a plan based on hope with no sound reasoning , which has been a staple principle of NZ horse racing management for decades . 

[Chief Stipe]

This is what you currently get at Caufield - note the number of staff.  The cost estimates for the "new" developments at Riccarton might be a bit light on staffing!

The Caulfield training centre is one of the premier facilities in Australia and houses some of best trainers in the nation. 

In addition to the racing at Caulfield, many well-known Victorian trainers and over 500 horses call Caulfield home. 

Caulfield Racecourse is ideally positioned just 8km southeast of the city, Caulfield is situated close to the city centre of Melbourne and is easily accessible by car, train or tram.

• Training hours; 4am-9.30am Monday to Saturday, 6am-8am Sunday.
• Course open to the public sunrise to sunset except race day

Training tracks

• A sand track; 2005m x 5m
• Steeple grass; 1900m x 18m
• Polytrack; 1700m x 9m. (combination of wax, crumbed rubber, shredded carpet fibre and sand)
• Inside grass; 1400m x 14m
• Lead sand; 1500m x 6m
• Steeple and hurdle training facilities; 250m laneway containing 3 jumps of each
• Horse pool; open same time as training tracks plus from 1.30pm-4.00pm.
• Three full time staff that run training, they work from 3.00am-9.30am, 6 days per week
• 14 full time track maintenance staff that look after all the training and racing tracks and facilities
• Three full time gardeners
• 500 horses housed and train on course. There are no off course stables any longer
• On site veterinary clinic
• All water used for irrigation is bore water and rain catchment, use about 120 million litres pa.
• Public can access the track at; Queens Ave, Guineas Car park, Glen Eira Rd entrance and the top of the hill next to the sports oval.

[Chief Stipe]

Here's what you get at Ballarat:

Sportsbet-Ballarat Training & Racing Facilities 

Sportsbet Ballarat is a world class training and racing facility with the following infrastructure. 

 

 

The Course Proper:
Inner track: 1900m
Start positions: 1000m, 1100m, 1200m, 1400m, 1500m, 1600m, 2200m, 2300m
Outer track: 2400m
Start positions flat races: 1000m, 1100m, 1200m, 1400m, 1500m, 1600m, 2000m, 3200m.
Start positions jumps races: 3200m, 3400m, 4000m, 4500m

Grass gallops available by appointment

Manual irrigation

 

The Polytrack: 1,900m

Start positions: 1000m, 1100m, 1200m, 1400m, 1500m, 1600m, 2100m, 2200m

Max field size of 12 horses

  

Sand Track: 1600m

 

 

 

Uphill Synthetic Track: 1400m
Practice barriers x 4
Distance markers by light & electronic timing for every 200m
Trainers Hut
 

Inside Grass Track: 1550m
Width approx. 18m
Suited for Official Jumps Trials
Regular Club jumpouts & grass gallops available 6 days per week
 

Viscoe Track: 1620m
Synthetic surface
Available 6 days per week
 

Jog Track: approx. 1400m
Located inner field
Provides opportunity for clockwise track work 6 days per week without special arrangement
 

Jumps Lane: approx 500m
Three lanes consisting of hurdle lane, steeple lane and logs
Available to trainers 6 days per week
Irrigated surface ensuring availability all year round

 

Communal Walker:
10 bay horse walker (walker bay's leased individually on an annual basis)
Undercover with full lighting
 

Bull Ring: 100m circuit
Option to install 1-4 moveable jumps within the circuit
Sand base irrigated surface
Available 7 days per week
 

Horse Pool:
Chlorine filtered
Available 7 days per week
 

Old Hill Track: 1200m
Granite sand surface
Timber railed
 

Stripping Shed:
Direct access to training tracks
Wash bays x 2
Sand roll x 1
Tie up bays approx. 30

[Chief Stipe]

Interesting reading about the Caulfield and Ballarat training facilities.  They irrigate their jumps tracks all year round.  

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

I'm not aware [ although clearly, not being a committee member, I don't know any details going forward ] of any plans to renovate the turf track.

Doesn't need renovating, just needs less water and maybe aeration, less use in the winter MAY also assist

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Pitman said:

Doesn't need renovating, just needs less water and maybe aeration, less use in the winter MAY also assist

Sure Pitty.  Riccarton is an amazing track that unlike every Metropolitan track in Australia doesn't need significant annual maintenance (what we would call renovation!) nor a minimum 8 year cycle of major renovation.  Yep Pitty, the agrarian expert of Canterbury, the South Island's top trainer, has the formula.  This is what he calls a great track:

[Pitman]

35 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Sure Pitty.  Riccarton is an amazing track that unlike every Metropolitan track in Australia doesn't need significant annual maintenance (what we would call renovation!) nor a minimum 8 year cycle of major renovation.  Yep Pitty, the agrarian expert of Canterbury, the South Island's top trainer, has the formula.  This is what he calls a great track:

A blind imbecile without a functioning brain cell would know the bottom photo is not taken where they race!!

So now you are calling maintenance renovation!!

Edited April 18, 2021 by Pitman

[nomates]

18 minutes ago, Pitman said:

A blind imbecile without a functioning brain cell would know the bottom photo is not taken where they race!!

So now you are calling maintenance renovation!!

But the top one was , if you believe that is acceptable for one of NZ's 3 metropolitan tracks then you are part of the problem . Sometimes people just don't want to see the wood for trees , no matter what .

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

A blind imbecile without a functioning brain cell would know the bottom photo is not taken where they race!!

 

Be that as it may it is a good indication of the condition of the soil and obvious issues when it comes to irrigating evenly.

1 hour ago, Pitman said:

So now you are calling maintenance renovation!!

I was being sarcastic Pitty - I should have used the sarcasm font.  The point I am making is that the maintenance work done for example at Flemington each year is what many track manager's in NZ would pass off as renovation.  The fact is we do SFA of either!

[Chief Stipe]

47 minutes ago, nomates said:

But the top one was , if you believe that is acceptable for one of NZ's 3 metropolitan tracks then you are part of the problem . Sometimes people just don't want to see the wood for trees , no matter what .

Yes I would have thought if anyone would be screaming from the rooftops it would be the South Island's leading trainer.  But he just see's it as an irrigation problem.

[Pitman]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yes I would have thought if anyone would be screaming from the rooftops it would be the South Island's leading trainer.  But he just see's it as an irrigation problem.

THANK YOU

[Chief Stipe]

Therein lies the reason for the eventual demise of South Island racing.

Goodbye Guineas.

[nomates]

I see we are close to the pointy end of the A/W debate , 4 weeks out from Cambridge running their 1st meeting then every 2 weeks thru till the end of the season . This for me is going to be very interesting to see just how many horses and from which stable turn up , then turn up regularly .

Then there is the turnover , with no real on course crowd , not that there ever is , everything hinges on off course betting . 

So many angles to this , how will the track race , how will it race with heavy rain , will there be track bias , going to be so interesting .

I watched some A/W track racing in England between races  over the Cheltenham and Aintree carnivals , the interesting thing for me was for a country with a huge horse population the size of fields overall seemed on the small side , might mean nothing , flat racing on grass had started so maybe that was taking numbers , don't know .

But anyway interesting couple of months ahead , the one thing i don't want to see is bad injuries or fatalities .