A must read.

[Joe Bloggs]

I urge all you inquisitive minded people to read the www.paulickreport.com musings on the upcoming [today] trial of Dr Seth Fishman in the USA. They mention an EPO mimetic, and The Washington Post is running the story also.

You hear so many rumours surrounding a synthetic EPO and the only LAB reputed to be able to test for it being in France, however, with the revelations from Jorge Navarro and his gaol sentence  plus the Jason Servis saga can we just hope this is the tip of the iceberg and we will see the dominos roll.

Like the Weir affair, it only takes one person to roll over, racing integrity is crucial to TAB and corporate turnover growth, gambling will always survive, it's human nature after all, and we need our brilliant industry to be free of innuendo and grey clouds, is AUS/NZ free of corruption in our industry? History will say we are not as far gone as USA, and on the surface it appears so, disqualifications are still rolling along in AUS at an alarming level though, horse cruelty recently and Richard Laming is now gone for 10 months, his 5/6th offence since 2010 for misc offences. The most heinous was his EPO conviction.

If our respective racing bodies are diligent and dutiful they will heed and observe the machinations unfolding in USA and in New Zealand's case, the urgent need to institute constant and stringent pre race testing at all race meetings in NZ, across the board not mostly the South Island as it has been in recent times. Ive been strong in my criticism of NZTR and their abysmal pre race testing, QLD has now slipped to almost the same level and it's disgraceful. 

Integrity is paramount, it starts with transparency and good governance, it's no good all this vitriol on new licensing protocols unless the very essence of integrity is addressed, and that's a level playing field for all.

 

[Chief Stipe]

So you are suggesting they do pre-race testing for something they supposedly can't test for?

[Joe Bloggs]

Going on the Paulick Report they can now.......and what about retrospective testing, you know, putting the fear of God into someone who thinks he/she has been getting away with it? USA are now mandating gaol sentences for the fraudsters, so, it just might work.....you think?....does NZ freeze samples?.......or would that be a pandoras box.......you think?

[Huey]

26 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Going on the Paulick Report they can now.......and what about retrospective testing, you know, putting the fear of God into someone who thinks he/she has been getting away with it? USA are now mandating gaol sentences for the fraudsters, so, it just might work.....you think?....does NZ freeze samples?.......or would that be a pandoras box.......you think?

Yes wouldn't that be great.

But realistically NZ has a lot more troughs, hay and P addicts than other jurisdictions so in essence would it be fair to undertake such a thing?

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Integrity is paramount, it starts with transparency and good governance, it's no good all this vitriol on new licensing protocols unless the very essence of integrity is addressed, and that's a level playing field for all.

 

Exactly , unfortunately our RIU are too easily duped .

[Joe Bloggs]

24 minutes ago, nomates said:

Exactly , unfortunately our RIU are too easily duped .

Real Idiots United....

[nomates]

7 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Real Idiots United....

I don't even know if they are united Joe , decisions are too inconsistent .

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Going on the Paulick Report they can now.......and what about retrospective testing, you know, putting the fear of God into someone who thinks he/she has been getting away with it? USA are now mandating gaol sentences for the fraudsters, so, it just might work.....you think?....does NZ freeze samples?.......or would that be a pandoras box.......you think?

So who's cheating in NZ?  No one I can see in Thoroughbred racing.

@Joe Bloggs you read too many conspiracy theories.

As for this EPO nonsense in NZ - why bother for shit Stakes?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

Yes wouldn't that be great.

But realistically NZ has a lot more troughs, hay and P addicts than other jurisdictions so in essence would it be fair to undertake such a thing?

Environmental cross contamination is happening in ALL jurisdictions not just NZ.

It isn't any indication of a lack of integrity or cheating.

Where is the evidence of drug cheating?  If you can't provide any then all you are doing is fueling the drive to end racing.  Similar to the daft whip rules.

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So who's cheating in NZ?  No one I can see in Thoroughbred racing.

There is always some who are doing things that are not in the spirit or some would say ethical , i have known plenty who have given known bleeders half an aspirin daily , then stop close to the races , is it cheating , is it ethical from a welfare position , everyone will have an opinion to varying degrees .

Don't know if it still possible to get but again have known many to train a horse on lasix , again if known bleeder , same questions . 

Giving young horses hormones isn't supposed to happen anymore , but i bet it does , people are always trying to find an edge . I have been to sales where a particular vendors horses are all real big and you just know that it is not all natural , i went to one SI sale and the horses from one vendor were huge , but you could just see there was no substance , and they got some big prices , i followed them for a couple of seasons , nada , couple of wins , but the vendor got their money .

Now these might not be considered in the big cheating arena , but if it is supposed to be a level playing field then it shouldn't be happening at all .

[Joe Bloggs]

57 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So who's cheating in NZ?  No one I can see in Thoroughbred racing.

@Joe Bloggs you read too many conspiracy theories.

As for this EPO nonsense in NZ - why bother for shit Stakes?

You'll never know will you? You [NZTR] don't have any money for pre-race testing for a start, and usually cheats dope up when going the punt, but NZ doesn't have a gambling culture so you have nothing to worry about.

[Joe Bloggs]

57 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Environmental cross contamination is happening in ALL jurisdictions not just NZ.

It isn't any indication of a lack of integrity or cheating.

Where is the evidence of drug cheating?  If you can't provide any then all you are doing is fueling the drive to end racing.  Similar to the daft whip rules.

Why did the farmer involved in the troughagate refuse to give evidence? He wasn't subpoenaed because it wasn't a criminal trial, if you follow Ray Paulick and the USA drug cases you'll see that authorities of substance are vying to change that. When that happens you watch the burning rubber in other jurisdictions.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Why did the farmer involved in the troughagate refuse to give evidence?

So you can't provide any evidence of cheating or even point to extraordinary performances that might point towards the use of PED's in NZ Thoroughbred Racing?

 

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

Don't know if it still possible to get but again have known many to train a horse on lasix , again if known bleeder , same questions

Nothing illegal about using Lasix.  Waller frequently uses it.  Just has a withholding period.

Ethically you could argue that this use of Lasix to prevent EIPH is in the best interests of animal welfare.

[Chief Stipe]

What I've observed in NZ is those that raise the spectre of PED abuse in Thoroughbred Racing are looking for a reason to explain their own poor performance.

Long may the tall poppy reign.

[nomates]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Nothing illegal about using Lasix.  Waller frequently uses it.  Just has a withholding period.

Ethically you could argue that this use of Lasix to prevent EIPH is in the best interests of animal welfare.

You could argue that it's not , some would say if an animal needs Lasix then it is clearly not up to the training and racing , and when it races after being on Lasix is just a Lotto ticket as to whether it bleeds .

[Joe Bloggs]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Nothing illegal about using Lasix.  Waller frequently uses it.  Just has a withholding period.

Ethically you could argue that this use of Lasix to prevent EIPH is in the best interests of animal welfare.

Mate, when you've trained winners in 3 states of Oz give me a ring about Lasix, or Premarin......I'll have a wee chat to you.

Have you ever held a trainers licence? Have you had to sit the trainers exam here in Oz that these buggers make everyone sit?  You make some absurd comments and then pull the piss out of people with real arguments......

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Mate, when you've trained winners in 3 states of Oz give me a ring about Lasix, or Premarin......I'll have a wee chat to you.

Have you ever held a trainers licence? Have you had to sit the trainers exam here in Oz that these buggers make everyone sit?  You make some absurd comments and then pull the piss out of people with real arguments......

What real argument?  There is ZERO evidence of widespread PED abuse in NZ Thoroughbred Racing.

You sit there on the Gold Coast firing pot shots at a racing jurisdiction you have largely abandoned.

One of your prime sources is a scumbag journalist called Peter Profit.

You may have trained winners in 3 states over several decades as have any number of people.  However it is irrelevant when expressing opinions on the state of NZ racing.  I doubt you even know what an EPO mimetic is yet it doesn't stop you from posting an article relating to it and asserting that (one presumes) because they are allegedly being used in the USA and allegedly they are a PED that they must be being used in NZ.  

Do you really have NZ Thoroughbred Racing interests at heart?  When you make unfounded assertions about NZ Racing you cast aspersions on ALL NZ Trainers but generally the more successful ones.  What's that achieve?

Quite frankly I get a bit sick and tired of the innuendo, supposition and unfounded assertions that are made.  FFS some are still going on about the Cobalt trough and the contaminated hay as if either of those are indicative of widespread PED abuse.  They are indicative of cross contamination issues that will continue to trouble the industry especially when there are zero tolerances and highly accurate testing to low levels.

As for Lasix I've said time and time again that there are horse welfare issues that will bite the industry in the arse more than any whip.  One of those is EIPH.  I have no problem with Lasix being used in training or any medication that reduces the severity of EIPH.  No I don't need to hear from your how Lasix has been abused or entertain the conspiracy theories attached to it.

 

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, nomates said:

You could argue that it's not , some would say if an animal needs Lasix then it is clearly not up to the training and racing , and when it races after being on Lasix is just a Lotto ticket as to whether it bleeds .

Well then do you want to eliminate virtually all horses from racing?

The fact is Thoroughbred Racing is about training a horse to do something it isn't designed to do.  That is race at high speed over distance.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well then do you want to eliminate virtually all horses from racing?

The fact is Thoroughbred Racing is about training a horse to do something it isn't designed to do.  That is race at high speed over distance.

Don't talk crap , the numbers of horse6 that would be on lasix would be very small,  I've had 35 or more horses and not one has had lasix,  and don't know anybody that does,  but I'm sure it is being used.

And racehorses are doing exactly what they are bred to , refined for 100s of years in fact. 

But as I said using lasix is a game of lotto , it isn't just given to every horse it is given for a specific reason , a weakness in the lungs . 

It aslo  doesn't stop horses from bleeding again .

But you think it's ok for a horse to train and then go out and find out under racing conditions that it's worked. 

Lotto. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, nomates said:

Don't talk crap , the numbers of horse6 that would be on lasix would be very small,  I've had 35 or more horses and not one has had lasix,  and don't know anybody that does,  but I'm sure it is being used.

You missed the point.  It wasn't about the number of horses using Lasix or a similar drug it was the fact that 90%+ of horses in training/racing suffer EIPH.

So of your 35 horses a minimum of 31 bled at some stage.  You wouldn't have known unless you scoped them.

17 minutes ago, nomates said:

And racehorses are doing exactly what they are bred to , refined for 100s of years in fact. 

I disagree.  Physiologically the Thoroughbred horse hasn't changed a great deal in 100 hundred years of inbreeding.  Arguably it has got worse considering the attrition rate of those that are bred to race.  Essentially a horse is not designed to run distance at speed wearing steel shoes carrying 60kg's on its back.  Why do we need high performance feeds and continual vet treatment?  

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm just presenting the facts. 

26 minutes ago, nomates said:

But as I said using lasix is a game of lotto , it isn't just given to every horse it is given for a specific reason , a weakness in the lungs . 

It aslo  doesn't stop horses from bleeding again .

How can it be a game of Lotto when the odds are stacked in favour of EIPH occurring?  Trainers like Waller use it as a preventative to stall or avoid the inevitable.  Once a horse has bled at a visible or high grade level it is too late to give it.

3

29 minutes ago, nomates said:

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well then do you want to eliminate virtually all horses from racing?

The fact is Thoroughbred Racing is about training a horse to do something it isn't designed to do.  That is race at high speed over distance.

Don't talk crap , the numbers of horse6 that would be on lasix would be very small,  I've had 35 or more horses and not one has had lasix,  and don't know anybody that does,  but I'm sure it is being used.

And racehorses are doing exactly what they are bred to , refined for 100s of years in fact. 

But as I said using lasix is a game of lotto , it isn't just given to every horse it is given for a specific reason , a weakness in the lungs . 

It aslo  doesn't stop horses from bleeding again .

But you think it's ok for a horse to train and then go out and find out under racing conditions that it's worked. 

Yes for minimising harm.  Conversely would you rather train them hard without preventative measures then let them bleed in a race?

Why not ban ALL non-natural preventative measures in training?

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

What real argument?  There is ZERO evidence of widespread PED abuse in NZ Thoroughbred Racing.

You sit there on the Gold Coast firing pot shots at a racing jurisdiction you have largely abandoned.

One of your prime sources is a scumbag journalist called Peter Profit.

You may have trained winners in 3 states over several decades as have any number of people.  However it is irrelevant when expressing opinions on the state of NZ racing.  I doubt you even know what an EPO mimetic is yet it doesn't stop you from posting an article relating to it and asserting that (one presumes) because they are allegedly being used in the USA and allegedly they are a PED that they must be being used in NZ.  

Do you really have NZ Thoroughbred Racing interests at heart?  When you make unfounded assertions about NZ Racing you cast aspersions on ALL NZ Trainers but generally the more successful ones.  What's that achieve?

Quite frankly I get a bit sick and tired of the innuendo, supposition and unfounded assertions that are made.  FFS some are still going on about the Cobalt trough and the contaminated hay as if either of those are indicative of widespread PED abuse.  They are indicative of cross contamination issues that will continue to trouble the industry especially when there are zero tolerances and highly accurate testing to low levels.

As for Lasix I've said time and time again that there are horse welfare issues that will bite the industry in the arse more than any whip.  One of those is EIPH.  I have no problem with Lasix being used in training or any medication that reduces the severity of EIPH.  No I don't need to hear from your how Lasix has been abused or entertain the conspiracy theories attached to it.

 

Nah, you just don't get it, Ray Paulick is not Archie Butterfly, FYI todays revelations in his paywall expose refers to W Farm and some alleged naughty activity, he's actually named the two trotting blokes he suspects so why don't they sue him? 

Ray Paulick does his homework, and if it's happening in USA how fucking naive you must be to think it aint happening elsewhere? You remember that low life trainer retained by another low life Sheik Mo, his name is Mahmood al Zarooni? who'da thought he would have been drugging horses?  It happens, and Neville Chamberlains like you believe it aint so......it happens in every jurisdiction, I just detest Ostriches, get your head out of the sand and understand that even in little old NZ there will be cheats after all it's the home of the old Blue Magic......and my neighbour when you were shitting your nappy was Ginner Hart, and we all know that came as no surprise don't we......

Why do you think a certain person was pumping bute into his horses trial day? subsequently horse breaks both sesamoids and nearly kills the jockey, why would you commit that low act, for fun? you think? gee, people sell horses out of barrier trials, especially in NZ, so pre-race testing needs to be mandatory to curtail that behaviour.......I could go on but it's wasted....thank fuck there are some great, learned and experienced people on here that can see bullshit at 100 yards, glowing in the dark, the sooner the Feds get onto the cheats the better, it will come, I just hope I'm alive to see it.

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

..thank fuck there are some great, learned and experienced people on here that can see bullshit at 100 yards, glowing in the dark, the sooner the Feds get onto the cheats the better, it will come, I just hope I'm alive to see it.

But you have no NZ based evidence.  ZERO, ZIP, NADA!

You can't even point to a horse or a race that looks dodgy.

The best you can come up with is wink, wink, nudge nudge when someone's hay or trough is contaminated.

How can I be naive when I don't believe your factless conspiracy theories of mushrooms under the bed?!

[Chief Stipe]

46 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I just detest Ostriches, get your head out of the sand and understand that even in little old NZ there will be cheats after all it's the home of the old Blue Magic......and my neighbour when you were shitting your nappy was Ginner Hart, and we all know that came as no surprise don't we...

Why don't you throw in @Thomass's aged chestnut of Dummy Myers misleading the punters 17 years ago?

I dont live in the past or continually dine on nostalgia.  Training techniques at the highest level have changed considerably and to regale one's past achievements as a source of credibility for today's views is pointless.

Of course there will be a positive to some banned PED in the next 10 years.  It won't mean there is widespread cheating in the industry but you'll feel vindicated and will tell us - "I was right, I've been telling you for years"!

Meanwhile have you researched what an EPO mimetic is?  

Is it OK to use an EPO mimetic as a therapeutic?

On Peter Profits latest crusade what's wrong with using stem cell technology?  Repairs tendons and ligaments very well doesn't it?

[Joe Bloggs]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But you have no NZ based evidence.  ZERO, ZIP, NADA!

You can't even point to a horse or a race that looks dodgy.

The best you can come up with is wink, wink, nudge nudge when someone's hay or trough is contaminated.

How can I be naive when I don't believe your factless conspiracy theories of mushrooms under the bed?!

Re your last sentence, because you're a goose Chief, you're only capable of seeing what you want to see.......read the fucking thing again......I said every jurisdiction.......not only NZ.....what you're implying is NZ is squeaky clean....nowhere is squeaky clean......think Lance Armstrong.......you remind me of Lance's old man.....'.oh no Lance couldn't possible do anything like that...it's all a conspiracy'.....FFS.  Ever since Noah played centre half for Bethlehem people have been trying to gain an edge, legal or not, the Feds need to be one step ahead, will that happen? Well our Feds are a furlong in front of yours, and they are scratching their nether regions trying for an answer.