A must read.

[Chief Stipe]

58 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Why do you think a certain person was pumping bute into his horses trial day? subsequently horse breaks both sesamoids and nearly kills the jockey, why would you commit that low act, for fun? you think?

That's why there are withholding periods for bute.  But you can't confirm causation and correlation links between specific bute use and a leg break.

I assume you aren't deliberately obfuscating the argument for Lasix with the bute example?  Lasix helps to prevent EIPH I.e. is a therapeutic.  It isn't hiding pain it is preventing injury.

[Joe Bloggs]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why don't you throw in @Thomass's aged chestnut of Dummy Myers misleading the punters 17 years ago?

I dont live in the past or continually dine on nostalgia.  Training techniques at the highest level have changed considerably and to regale one's past achievements as a source of credibility for today's views is pointless.

Of course there will be a positive to some banned PED in the next 10 years.  It won't mean there is widespread cheating in the industry but you'll feel vindicated and will tell us - "I was right, I've been telling you for years"!

Meanwhile have you researched what an EPO mimetic is?  

Is it OK to use an EPO mimetic as a therapeutic?

On Peter Profits latest crusade what's wrong with using stem cell technology?  Repairs tendons and ligaments very well doesn't it?

Increasing red blood cells to improve oxygen levels is illegal, otherwise we would all be blood doping wouldn't we?  Maybe nano particle tech will be the next big thing, if you don't know about nano particle's, google it, but don't lecture me on changed training techniques and there is a vast difference in regaling past achievements in attempt to achieve credibility when fact beats fiction every time........a bit like a 50yo kicking coach showing a young Quade Copper where he's going wrong.

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Re your last sentence, because you're a goose Chief, you're only capable of seeing what you want to see.......read the fucking thing again......I said every jurisdiction.......not only NZ.....what you're implying is NZ is squeaky clean....nowhere is squeaky clean......think Lance Armstrong.......you remind me of Lance's old man.....'.oh no Lance couldn't possible do anything like that...it's all a conspiracy'.....FFS.  Ever since Noah played centre half for Bethlehem people have been trying to gain an edge, legal or not, the Feds need to be one step ahead, will that happen? Well our Feds are a furlong in front of yours, and they are scratching their nether regions trying for an answer.

BUT WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE IN NZ?  Just because it can happen doesn't mean IT IS!

Where are the big performance turn arounds and betting coups?  Provide some curcumstantial evidence of you can.

[Joe Bloggs]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's why there are withholding periods for bute.  But you can't confirm causation and correlation links between specific bute use and a leg break.

I assume you aren't deliberately obfuscating the argument for Lasix with the bute example?  Lasix helps to prevent EIPH I.e. is a therapeutic.  It isn't hiding pain it is preventing injury.

I'll give you one, one, example so you can digest, and then I'm off......never to go near this again as I get migraines from trying to get you to understand. One day way back in time I was at Levin trials with my business partner, a Malaysian jockey at the time, we went with Jack Higgs who was a leading owner and a friend of mine. We had several horses lined up as potential imports, we were approached by an old time trainer who I knew from my days as an apprentice and he asked us to look at two of his trialling later in the morning. Well we did, except, both of them broke down, not one, but two.....both went in the front joints, one broke a fetlock and the other a sesamoid......we learnt later from a disgruntled stable associate that they were full of bute as they had been sore for a while.......that's what desperation does to a person, however another particular person had sold horses to Asia before, and the horses had gone poorly, after trialling brilliantly in NZ and being sold off those trials........one bled badly first start in KL and after much research we found it had bled in a gallop before trialling brilliantly.......you think it trialled on Lasix? I bet you did.........there is a place in racing for therapeutic drugs, but policing racing and trials with pre-race testing is a must go to......you live in denial.

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Increasing red blood cells to improve oxygen levels is illegal, otherwise we would all be blood doping wouldn't we?

Increasing red blood cells isn't illegal.  Using EPO in horses and athletes to improve performance in competition is.  EPO even in horses can be used for therapeutic purposes.

EPO can't make a horse faster but can enable it to maintain its highest speed for longer I.e. improve stamina.  So not much use on a horse that can't break 11 seconds for a furlong.

21 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Maybe nano particle tech will be the next big thing, if you don't know about nano particle's, google it

I don't need to Google it.  Nano-particle technology has been the breakthrough that enables mRNA technology.  It enables therapeutic substances to traverse cell walls and organ membranes.  That is enable the therapeutic to be delivered to where it can have maximum effect.  

21 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

..a bit like a 50yo kicking coach showing a young Quade Copper where he's going wrong.

But Quade Cooper now has a personal nutritionist, a sports psychologist, a defence coach, an attack coach amongst others.

Occasionally he might have the use of a kicking coach.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I'll give you one, one, example so you can digest, and then I'm off......never to go near this again as I get migraines from trying to get you to understand. One day way back in time I was at Levin trials with my business partner, a Malaysian jockey at the time, we went with Jack Higgs who was a leading owner and a friend of mine. We had several horses lined up as potential imports, we were approached by an old time trainer who I knew from my days as an apprentice and he asked us to look at two of his trialling later in the morning. Well we did, except, both of them broke down, not one, but two.....both went in the front joints, one broke a fetlock and the other a sesamoid......we learnt later from a disgruntled stable associate that they were full of bute as they had been sore for a while.......that's what desperation does to a person, however another particular person had sold horses to Asia before, and the horses had gone poorly, after trialling brilliantly in NZ and being sold off those trials........one bled badly first start in KL and after much research we found it had bled in a gallop before trialling brilliantly.......you think it trialled on Lasix? I bet you did.........there is a place in racing for therapeutic drugs, but policing racing and trials with pre-race testing is a must go to......you live in denial.

How many decades ago was that Joe?  

The fact is even with vastly improved testing technology, random pre-race/stable testing and post race testing we aren't seeing anything!!

We aren't even seeing any circumstantial evidence of people gaining from cheating using PED's.

Yes someone somewhere in NZ will be doing something on the margins but there just ain't any evidence of it.

Surely it would be easy to post a list of amazing form turnarounds and the bookies getting slaughtered.

[Joe Bloggs]

51 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Increasing red blood cells isn't illegal.  Using EPO in horses and athletes to improve performance in competition is.  EPO even in horses can be used for therapeutic purposes.

EPO can't make a horse faster but can enable it to maintain its highest speed for longer I.e. improve stamina.  So not much use on a horse that can't break 11 seconds for a furlong.

I don't need to Google it.  Nano-particle technology has been the breakthrough that enables mRNA technology.  It enables therapeutic substances to traverse cell walls and organ membranes.  That is enable the therapeutic to be delivered to where it can have maximum effect.  

But Quade Cooper now has a personal nutritionist, a sports psychologist, a defence coach, an attack coach amongst others.

Occasionally he might have the use of a kicking coach.

We all use iron supplements to increase red cells, that's a given, I'm talking about Raceday admin, you know....cheating, like Laming the recidivist using EPO giving him an edge, like Lance did, Raceday or within the accepted period/limit you can't give or do SFA......the way it should be, and like Elephant juice, by gee it can make a horse run faster, I'll not explain that here, and No I'm not talking personal admin, but I know just what it can do and it can take an ordinary horse to the winners circle, and it can kill......I know that too, if you understand what you read regarding nano particles, then it's a pandoras box, it's in it's infancy but like DMSO it will emerge, it will be found [eventually] and chemists will move on developing the new and undetectable performance enhancers.......everywhere, not just NZ. Smashing bookmakers is not synonymous with NZ as you don't have real bookmakers, I had to laugh while watching trackside one day as the person in the studio was animated chatting with a talking head from TAB about a huge wager of 2K.......when they knocked me back for half of that, the bullshit from TAB is only rivalled by that of The Beehive.....FFS.

[nomates]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You missed the point.  It wasn't about the number of horses using Lasix or a similar drug it was the fact that 90%+ of horses in training/racing suffer EIPH.

So of your 35 horses a minimum of 31 bled at some stage.  You wouldn't have known unless you scoped them.

4 hours ago, nomates said:

I missed nothing , you never mention how many horses suffer from EIPH , i would say that that figure would be higher . 

I have no understanding of your hands on experience of training race horses but the majority of people that i know that train horses knew that the vast majority of horses in training and racing bled to some extent , i would say with enough exertion but i had one that had a very small bleed after very light pace work , when scoped the tear was barely 2/3 mls . Why? no idea , just like most vets .

I myself if i exerted myself enough when i was playing sport which being competitive was most of the times had bleeding in my lungs , i could always taste the iron in my mouth after the game , fortunately never required me to go on Lasix .

If Waller is using Lasix he will not be using it as a daily preventative on all horses , as with most things with racehorses we tend to be reactive , which is understandable as horses can't talk so we require a physical sign of an issue . Most racehorses while accepted that they bleed to some extent never have any great issue with it . It becomes serious when it shows in the nostril/s , some jurisdictions are comfortable with blood in one nostril , requiring blood in both before a mandatory stand down , other like NZ one nostril to get a stand down .

Now as for how many of my 35+ horses bled it could well be all of them but only 2 ever presented with blood in the nostrils that alerted that the issue was much worse . i like many never scoped one of them , accepted that he had bled from a lesion on his lungs so just gave him a long spell and trained him as normal , did i use the aspirin trick , maybe , maybe not , but he coped with a normal training regime , 3 trials to make sure all was well , the last a strong test , no issues , went to the races and bled and retired . But why did he bleed after so much traing and trials , ?????? , ask a vet you get pretty much the same response , yes they will give you some science but if he was under oath , no idea m'lord .

So are people using Lasix as a preventative measure for sure a very small % will be , good luck to them , i would rather put my horse under normal stresses to find out if there is an ongoing issue , Lasix just masks it , till they stop and take the chance .

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

...cheating, like Laming the recidivist using EPO giving him an edge

2009 the first case of EPO in OZ - testing caught him.  How many since?

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

the way it should be, and like Elephant juice,

Wasn't the last case in 1985?  37 years ago.  A morphine type derivative which is easily detectable.

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

it's in it's infancy but like DMSO it will emerge

What's wrong with DMSO?  An approved anti-inflammatory for out of competition use.  Easy detected.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, nomates said:

If Waller is using Lasix he will not be using it as a daily preventative on all horses

I didn't say he was.  But he is likely to be using it as a preventative for hard workouts.

10 minutes ago, nomates said:

Most racehorses while accepted that they bleed to some extent never have any great issue with it

That's not correct.  Research shows that EIPH progressively becomes worse in many horses.  Well before it appears in the nostrils there performance is impaired.

10 minutes ago, nomates said:

It becomes serious when it shows in the nostril/s , some jurisdictions are comfortable with blood in one nostril , requiring blood in both before a mandatory stand down , other like NZ one nostril to get a stand down .

Blood doesn't have to appear in the nostrils for a high grade EIPH to have occurred.  If blood has been seen in the nostrils then yes a high grade EIPH has occurred and the administrators must be seen to do something in response when it visibly manifests itself.

12 minutes ago, nomates said:

i like many never scoped one of them ,

Unlike most top trainers who will inevitably scope all their runners.

14 minutes ago, nomates said:

So are people using Lasix as a preventative measure for sure a very small % will be , good luck to them , i would rather put my horse under normal stresses to find out if there is an ongoing issue , Lasix just masks it , till they stop and take the chance

That's not correct.  It slows the progression to higher grade EIPH episodes.  Subsequently there is less scaring and the horse is able to perform at peak longer.  It extends their careers and competiveness often without any visible or physical manifestation of EIPH.

So Lasix doesn't mask the disease it slows it's progression.

BTW aspirin would be the last thing you give a horse with EIPH.

[nomates]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I disagree.  Physiologically the Thoroughbred horse hasn't changed a great deal in 100 hundred years of inbreeding.  Arguably it has got worse considering the attrition rate of those that are bred to race.  Essentially a horse is not designed to run distance at speed wearing steel shoes carrying 60kg's on its back.  Why do we need high performance feeds and continual vet treatment?  

 

Of course they have , and  a large part of the breed hasn't been inbred , good breeders are always looking for an outcross , Why? , but because they stopped breeding the toughest most of the time to just breeding the fastest and prettiest the breed has definitely become a much finer animal and hence the attrition rate is down to so called improved training methods with not so physically tough horses . Massively improved nutrition and veterinary practices along with medication have balanced that out somewhat .

Hence Lasix which masks the the lesser horse who's lungs can't handle the pressure of training and racing . Is it an improvement .

As i mentioned in another thread the large number of yearlings that the big stables purchase , only a small percentage of those horses ever make an impact on the track , why? , a lot are simply not athletic enough , as in no ability , but a large proportion are broken down by the training regimes undertaken to pressure these young horses and get them up and running for the big money . 

Here in Australasia a large portion of our richest prizes are for 2yo and 3yo's , Nz only has 2 1Milliom dollar races , both for young horses . In Australia they are happy if a young horse can win a big race even if it breaks it , and history has proven that a lot of top 2/3yo's never come back .

Improved feed and vet practices aren't all about making the horse just a better race horse but are just about a horses well being which in turn can improve a horses performance , more about good practice and caring for your horses well being .

I never done a blood to know if my horses were well before a race , i worked daily with my horses so i knew them inside out so i knew when my horses were not , bloods were only ever taken to confirm what my eyes had seen and to find out how sick the horse was , that is an improvement because then allows me to make an informed decision on what has to be done to get the animal better .

The big stables that continually do bloods before a race do so because they don't always have their eyes on the horses as much as a small trainer , plus they aren' paying the bills .

[nomates]

I was going to answer a couple of other things you said but after your first response i can see as ever you are going to keep throwing your argument at it until everyone gets bored , as per usual . 

Maybe if you had real hands on experience with racehorses i could put up with your continued rhetoric , people with hands on experience are telling you what they have seen and dealt with on the ground dealing with the real world racing animal issues , but you continue to belittle their experience as amounting to naught . 

Don't waste your time responding , i wont be saying anymore .

You have become as annoying on this site as much as the couple on the other channel x have become , you simply can't have a discussion without needing to over power the discussion with your point of view .

[theshu]

40 minutes ago, nomates said:

I was going to answer a couple of other things you said but after your first response i can see as ever you are going to keep throwing your argument at it until everyone gets bored , as per usual . 

Maybe if you had real hands on experience with racehorses i could put up with your continued rhetoric , people with hands on experience are telling you what they have seen and dealt with on the ground dealing with the real world racing animal issues , but you continue to belittle their experience as amounting to naught . 

Don't waste your time responding , i wont be saying anymore .

You have become as annoying on this site as much as the couple on the other channel x have become , you simply can't have a discussion without needing to over power the discussion with your point of view .

Yes he should change his name by deed poll to Google as there is nothing he does not know thw answer too.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

I was going to answer a couple of other things you said but after your first response i can see as ever you are going to keep throwing your argument at it until everyone gets bored , as per usual . 

Maybe if you had real hands on experience with racehorses i could put up with your continued rhetoric , people with hands on experience are telling you what they have seen and dealt with on the ground dealing with the real world racing animal issues , but you continue to belittle their experience as amounting to naught . 

Don't waste your time responding , i wont be saying anymore .

You have become as annoying on this site as much as the couple on the other channel x have become , you simply can't have a discussion without needing to over power the discussion with your point of view .

Well don't you find it boring like some do that the "expert trainers" keep rolling out the same old stuff from 30 years ago.  If you think the techniques of training racehorses haven't changed as has so much else then you are mistaken.  

I get tired of hearing "when I did this" or "I've done this" when the fact is you and I have been part of the problem that has seen the demise of racing.  Doing the same old same old isn't working!!!!

You believe you are right because of the virtue of your experience and expertise and there is no way that there can be any different.

[Chief Stipe]

52 minutes ago, theshu said:

Yes he should change his name by deed poll to Google as there is nothing he does not know thw answer too.

Really Shu.  I take it you don't have any views or opinions but just want to snipe on the sidelines.  Or views or opinions you do have are not strong enough to stand debate.

 No wonder the racing industry is fucked - it isn't healthy enough to have solid opinions.  Instead we have split stakeholders talking conspiracies, cartels, cutting down tall poppies and reminiscing about the good old days.

Meanwhile nothing, absolutely nothing  changes.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

I never done a blood to know if my horses were well before a race , i worked daily with my horses so i knew them inside out so i knew when my horses were not , bloods were only ever taken to confirm what my eyes had seen and to find out how sick the horse was , that is an improvement because then allows me to make an informed decision on what has to be done to get the animal better .

The big stables that continually do bloods before a race do so because they don't always have their eyes on the horses as much as a small trainer , plus they aren' paying the bills .

They do bloods to baseline lots of things.  Not all horses have the same blood profile believe it or not.  They'll also adjust a horses feed and supplements based on blood results.  All to get that 1 to 2% more that makes a difference in top level competitive racing in OZ.  It isn't because they don't have the time to spend with each horse.  It is applying new science to horse training.  The same approach is done with a new All Black such is how times have moved forward.

Liken it to the way any good GP will get your bloods done on a regular basis not on a reactive way but to proactively identify a problem before it manifests itself as disease.

That doesn't require Google to understand they whys.  Just like most people know you don't take aspirin if you have a stomach ulcer as it causes bleeding.  Lasix is a diuretic and reduces blood pressure by reducing fluid.

[Joe Bloggs]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

Of course they have , and  a large part of the breed hasn't been inbred , good breeders are always looking for an outcross , Why? , but because they stopped breeding the toughest most of the time to just breeding the fastest and prettiest the breed has definitely become a much finer animal and hence the attrition rate is down to so called improved training methods with not so physically tough horses . Massively improved nutrition and veterinary practices along with medication have balanced that out somewhat .

Hence Lasix which masks the the lesser horse who's lungs can't handle the pressure of training and racing . Is it an improvement .

As i mentioned in another thread the large number of yearlings that the big stables purchase , only a small percentage of those horses ever make an impact on the track , why? , a lot are simply not athletic enough , as in no ability , but a large proportion are broken down by the training regimes undertaken to pressure these young horses and get them up and running for the big money . 

Here in Australasia a large portion of our richest prizes are for 2yo and 3yo's , Nz only has 2 1Milliom dollar races , both for young horses . In Australia they are happy if a young horse can win a big race even if it breaks it , and history has proven that a lot of top 2/3yo's never come back .

Improved feed and vet practices aren't all about making the horse just a better race horse but are just about a horses well being which in turn can improve a horses performance , more about good practice and caring for your horses well being .

I never done a blood to know if my horses were well before a race , i worked daily with my horses so i knew them inside out so i knew when my horses were not , bloods were only ever taken to confirm what my eyes had seen and to find out how sick the horse was , that is an improvement because then allows me to make an informed decision on what has to be done to get the animal better .

The big stables that continually do bloods before a race do so because they don't always have their eyes on the horses as much as a small trainer , plus they aren' paying the bills .

I never pulled a blood either, when foreman for the greatest trainer of 2y0's Oz ever saw, he told me ''the only time I want to see a vet in here is to sign a death certificate' ! He reckoned that between us we had well over a hundred years of experience so should know more than any vet!....he was right of course.......He was the original stallion maker, he forgot what most learnt in a lifetime, one Angus August Armanasco.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said:

I never pulled a blood either, when foreman for the greatest trainer of 2y0's Oz ever saw, he told me ''the only time I want to see a vet in here is to sign a death certificate' ! He reckoned that between us we had well over a hundred years of experience so should know more than any vet!....he was right of course.......He was the original stallion maker, he forgot what most learnt in a lifetime, one Angus August Armanasco.

Proper horseman know their horses , others read books and believe they know all the answers to anything and everything , but nothing beats years of hands on experience , in any line of work . 

One of the reasons our industry is in the shit is people who have a lot of book knowledge but no real ability keep getting control .

I've met enough people who can spout research babble but are completely clueless with the realities .

[Joe Bloggs]

42 minutes ago, nomates said:

Proper horseman know their horses , others read books and believe they know all the answers to anything and everything , but nothing beats years of hands on experience , in any line of work . 

One of the reasons our industry is in the shit is people who have a lot of book knowledge but no real ability keep getting control .

I've met enough people who can spout research babble but are completely clueless with the realities .

Touche!

[Freda]

6 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Touche!

Been reading this thread with interest.   

 I was fortunate to attend a series of lectures where one Professor Tom Tobin was a contributor to the proceedings.  During the course of his talk, a woman from the audience wanted to know how often a racing horse should be blood tested, and what sort of factors she should be looking out for.  

He said, what on earth do you think you'll find out from blood testing a healthy horse?  And how is it that you don't know if your horse is fit and well?

 

 

[curious]

Do they blood test the All Blacks before every game to check on their health and conditioning status?

[Chief Stipe]

49 minutes ago, curious said:

Do they blood test the All Blacks before every game to check on their health and conditioning status?

Who posted that some Trainers take bloods before every race?  

How often does your Doctor do blood tests on you?  Annual check up?  When you pitch up with something wrong?

Blood tests are part of the tool kit of modern trainers.  All good if some don't use then.  

I guess the win records are the final judge.

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, nomates said:

Proper horseman know their horses , others read books and believe they know all the answers to anything and everything , but nothing beats years of hands on experience , in any line of work

Reading books worked for Rick Hore-Lacy.  Mind you he may have only read two.

[curious]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Blood tests are part of the tool kit of modern trainers.  All good if some don't use then. 

Can't imagine there's many that never use them?

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

Been reading this thread with interest.   

 I was fortunate to attend a series of lectures where one Professor Tom Tobin was a contributor to the proceedings.  During the course of his talk, a woman from the audience wanted to know how often a racing horse should be blood tested, and what sort of factors she should be looking out for.  

He said, what on earth do you think you'll find out from blood testing a healthy horse?  And how is it that you don't know if your horse is fit and well?

 

 

You might find that Professor Tobin has adjusted his thinking.

But speaking of Professor Tobin his view and mine are very similar with regard to race testing which are at odds with many who post here. To quote Tobin:

Finally, given the very high sensitivity and specificity of this testing procedure, it can be used to detect parts per trillion or picograms per ML of drug in relatively small sample volumes, such as a one milliliter plasma sample, as set forth in Reference 9 below.
  
This very high and continually increasing sensitivity of drug testing techniques and instrumentation brings with it the problem of detecting more and more minute traces of drugs, including therapeutic medications used legitimately and appropriately to protect the health and welfare of the horse, traces that are clearly pharmacologically and forensically irrelevant.  As such, the extremely high sensitivity of current analytical techniques has created significant problems, and perhaps has made the so called “zero-tolerance” concept or approach to equine drug testing irrational and irrelevant when applied to therapeutic medications and dietary and environmental substances.