Cam Jones 21 months from rib.

[Basil]

On 29/06/2022 at 9:21 AM, Chief Stipe said:

What rule?  There are no rules on BOAY.  Hell you can even slag off the owner and administrator of BOAY without being banned.  Try that elsewhere.

What "nonsense"?  Robust debate and counter opinion?  Is this "former BOAY contributor" now a member of a private Facebook page slagging off Harness Racing?  A member of the same clique that feeds Peter Profit aka @Archie Butterfly?  

If the quote you attribute to this "former BOAY contributor" is correct then they are a liar.  No one has said on BOAY that there is no corruption - well certainly not me.  Although corruption is an emotive word - there are cheats in every sport and in most industry's.  If you don't know that then you are naive.  But is there widespread performance enhancing drug use and race fixing going on?  No evidence yet.

INCA has been an expensive (more than $14m) witch hunt by incompetent RIB staff.  What is the score now for INCA after 6 years?  Close to ZIP.

Yes I believe the culture at the RIB has been toxic driven by ex-Policemen who have had dodgy exits from the Police force.  BTW I have yet to see any evidence that that culture has changed.

That is a lie.  An outright lie.  What is your agenda?  I do not appreciate people attributing opinions to me that are not mine.  If you did that on any other forum you would be banned or at the very least moderated.  But feel free to respond @Basil because I'm more than happy to argue your points robustly.

In my opinion the cases that we are seeing are just reflective of wider societal ills i.e. it isn't just a Harness Racing problem.  I also believe that there isn't widespread use of performance enhancing drugs i.e. Woodend ISN'T riddled with cheating trainers.  Now the Bennetts, the Happy's and the Archie Butterflies of this world might think so and might want to bring Harness to its knees but where is the evidence?  If the RIB is so good, efficient, professional and competent in performing their assigned task where is the evidence?  After $14m of expense and using the NZ Police Force where is the evidence of race fixing?  

I would argue that the RIB and HRNZ should be bought to account.  They have contributed to what is becoming a toxic industry to work in.  Where were the HRNZ systems preventing Kerr from over selling horses or over selling insurance?  Something I might add has gone on for decades.  That isn't defending Kerr - not by any means.  He obviously has an addiction illness and should be held accountable for his actions.  But has HRNZ done ANYTHING to prevent the crime he committed?  Have they updated their ownership systems?  Have they made them more transparent to those who invest in the industry?  Have they initiated anything that registers a pecuniary interest against a horse?  If they did or even if they advertised they were going to there would be some scurrying in some quarters.

Yeah na - let's all get on Social Media and hang draw and quarter anyone who commits a crime or makes a mistake.  Let's publicly vilify two of NZ's best ever drivers for getting caught by INCA using recreational party drugs because Harness Racing is above the rest of society.  No, no lets extrapolate it even further and say "oooohhh if they are willing to use illegal party drugs what are they doing to their horses".....

What I do notice about those yelling the loudest is that when you challenge their views and ask for evidence of their accusations they scurry in all directions and mostly go undercover into private forums.  

So what this amounts to (in order) is:

1. Deny the denying.

2. Issue threats.

3. Put up straw men (Woodend riddled with cheating trainers)

4. Introduce irrelevancies (other states are just as rotten as the state of harness)

5. Revert to denial — it's all the fault of HRNZ, dodgy cops and social media.

You show me a case where you've unequivocally found fault with a trainer driver, without hesitation or qualification, and without first engaging in a knee-jerk defense, and I'll show you the empty set.

My agenda? Merely an owner who's appalled by a lot (but certainly not all) of the industry behaviour, who thinks his own trainer is clean but wouldn't be totally surprised to learn otherwise, and who's amazed by the head-in-the-sand attitude of so many industry participants.

[Gammalite]

10 minutes ago, Basil said:

but wouldn't be totally surprised to learn otherwise, and who's amazed by the head-in-the-sand attitude of so many industry participants.

Best of Luck with your horse Basil.

Of course it's an industry with 'head in the sand' attitude by participants !!!. It's a Competition. You are trying to beat the rivals. What they do at their stables and with their horses (trainers and owners) is their Own business. don't share secrets if you get an advantage to Win....... .

Once they (horses) hit the Track , the drivers have to show respect for each other firstly (for workplace health and safety) and also respect for the punter (by having a Go everytime) And respect for the owners/trainers (by not sharing secrets gained from other stables and following the guidelines of doing the (Best for the stable that just paid me to drive their horse) once again drivers don't share secrets/stratagies if you get an advantage to Win......

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Basil said:

You show me a case where you've unequivocally found fault with a trainer driver, without hesitation or qualification, and without first engaging in a knee-jerk defense, and I'll show you the empty set.

That's crap.

1 hour ago, Basil said:

Revert to denial — it's all the fault of HRNZ, dodgy cops and social media.

I haven't denied anything.  The difference is I believe the industry has a culture problem much of which is perpetuated by the administrators of the sport largely by their inaction.  I've also offered solutions e.g. ways to prevent the Mitchell Kerr crime being committed and protecting owners. 

All others are intent on doing is to completely rub out anyone who errs and to raise unfounded allegations about those that are succeeding (surviving?) in the sport.

If you are happy with the RIB and HRNZ's management of the sport then I would say you are in denial not I.  Meanwhile the rank and file are struggling to make a living and the administrators get fatter without any risk.  Many are satisfied if they see some road kill from time to time but don't give a damn about fixing the fundamental systemic problems.

[hunterthepunter]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Best of Luck with your horse Basil.

Of course it's an industry with 'head in the sand' attitude by participants !!!. It's a Competition. You are trying to beat the rivals. What they do at their stables and with their horses (trainers and owners) is their Own business. don't share secrets if you get an advantage to Win....... .

Once they (horses) hit the Track , the drivers have to show respect for each other firstly (for workplace health and safety) and also respect for the punter (by having a Go everytime) And respect for the owners/trainers (by not sharing secrets gained from other stables and following the guidelines of doing the (Best for the stable that just paid me to drive their horse) once again drivers don't share secrets/stratagies if you get an advantage to Win......

are you talking about the moon boot fellas horse? should go great race tonight

[Robalan]

Chief, I know what your suggestions were and I agree that they would help to improve the situation, but I see 2 things wrong with your suggestions 

1,  HRNZ has shown no inclination to enforce ownership registration timelines, and

2, How are HRNZ to know the ownership of any unraced horse if its ownership has not been declared, this could also apply to horses racing

[Chief Stipe]

On 2/07/2022 at 9:33 PM, Robalan said:

HRNZ has shown no inclination to enforce ownership registration timelines,

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

On 2/07/2022 at 9:33 PM, Robalan said:

How are HRNZ to know the ownership of any unraced horse if its ownership has not been declared, this could also apply to horses racing

As far as I know no registered race horse in New Zealand cannot have an owner.   The simple step that HRNZ can take is to make the ownership status open and transparent.  They do this up to a point where anyone can look up who owns a horse so all that is required is to extend this for syndicates (I.e. list all members) and make available to all owners in a particular horse who owns what percentage.

The next step is to have a central registry where any pecuniary interest against a horse must be registered I.e. an insurance policy.

So if an owner signs papers to buy a share in any registered horse they can then view who else owns how much of it and who has a pecuniary interest.  Someone like Kerr wouldn't be able to do what he did.

Surely that is an important function of HRNZ - put systems in place to ensure the integrity of horse ownership.

[Kane21]

On 2/07/2022 at 1:02 PM, hunterthepunter said:

are you talking about the moon boot fellas horse? should go great race tonight

How did it go?

[Robalan]

Chief, every horse has on owner when they are born. That is the person(s) who is the registered owner of the mare at the time of foaling. Once the horse is sold by the breeder it is the responsibility of the purchaser to register the change of ownership with HRNZ. I have sold yearlings at the National yearling sales run by NZ Bloodstock. It is a requirement of entry into the sale for all vendors to provide a signed change of ownerrship form to NZ Bloodstock. Every yearling that is sold is recorded in the results of the sale which also records its sale price and who it was sold to. HRNZ require all change of ownership forms to be registered within 5 days of purchase, yet I've got horses sold years ago which still appear under my ownership. If HRNZ or the RIU were interested in ensuring their registry was correct and up to date surely they could check the purchasers name in the sales results and if no change of ownership had been registered then the purchaser should have to explain why. If they have no valid reason for not changing the ownership then they should be fined, with fines increasing for repeat offendors.

HRNZ have no interest in ensuring the accuracy of their ownership register and that is why people like Kerr get away with what they do. As you have already said

[hunterthepunter]

6 hours ago, Kane21 said:

How did it go?

bolted in Ronaldo won race5 Queensland .Michael (moon) Boots pumped with the win . only payed 1.50 fav to win

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, Robalan said:

HRNZ require all change of ownership forms to be registered within 5 days of purchase, yet I've got horses sold years ago which still appear under my ownership.

Which is incorrect data and needs to be corrected.  HRNZ don't have many jobs and I would have thought data integrity was a priority.

14 hours ago, Robalan said:

If HRNZ or the RIU were interested in ensuring their registry was correct and up to date surely they could check the purchasers name in the sales results and if no change of ownership had been registered then the purchaser should have to explain why.

I agree.

14 hours ago, Robalan said:

If they have no valid reason for not changing the ownership then they should be fined, with fines increasing for repeat offendors.

I agree.  Reminds me of when I gave an old car away to be scrapped.  It wasn't a very pleasant experience to have a Police Sergeant visit my work to tell me that that car had been involved in a crime.  To say I got a bollocking for not completing the change of ownership papers would be an understatement.  I was lucky not to be prosecuted!

If ownership details are made more accessible and HRNZ educates owners (does a new owner get an ownership pack detailing what they can and can't do?) then there would be an element of self policing.  I've been bitten in horse ownership before and I would want to know if the insurance that I was paying was registered against the horse as a pecuniary interest.

14 hours ago, Robalan said:

HRNZ have no interest in ensuring the accuracy of their ownership register and that is why people like Kerr get away with what they do.

Yes and that is my biggest concern.  It is easy to rub out those that err when they are eventually caught and you could argue that it is the interests of HRNZ to makes sure that as much noise is made as possible.  As it gives the impression that they are actually doing something.  However they are not addressing the fundamental problems.  I've always said there is a direct correlation between the level of stakes and racing opportunities available and the cheat levels people will reach to try and survive in the industry.

[Honestjohn]

I think we've all been had with ownership before,  my first galloper I had a 1/4share in raced without my name attached to the ownership.  Along with a mate who took a 1/4. As well.  We paid fees for about 6 months,  it even raced without our knowledge. 

Lessons learned. 

When I raced my horses I sometimes gave 1/4 shares to mates,  but always changed the horse ownership papers.  Or if leased then the expiry date added to the papers. 

 

Hj