UK ... The TOTE

[The Centaur]

With NZTAB seemingly about to undergo huge operating changes by passing control offshore its worth noting the UK "THE TOTE" business model.

UK Totalizator betting was sold off to bookmaker interests in 2011 but bought back by racing interests in 2019 https://www.racingpost.com/news/racing-consortium-completes-deal-to-take-over-the-tote-from-betfred-akebc8B7SL8z/

Thats important to note. Even with the proliferation of UK bookmakers it was deemed necessary for racing interests to control totalizator betting.

I hope the lesson is learnt in NZ so that clubs who produce the product are able to run their own pools tying in with the marketing of racing.

However I can see given the level of understanding by NZTR of the wagering industry a decision will be made resulting in the death of NZ racing.

[Doomed]

It is worth remembering that British racing has always struggled because bookmakers have dominated and they return very little to the industry. NZ racing always did well because we were the first in the world to have the totalisator, and the tote returns much more to the industry.

You do wonder whether this emphasis on fixed odds betting, with expensive gimmicks like no deductions for scratchings, no deductions for dead-heats and paying out on horses that get relegated, seems to have coincided with much poorer returns to the industry.

Perhaps we should return to the days when the tote dominated, when there was no problem with how much someone wanted to bet, or how much they won, and the industry did well.

There have always been people who have claimed that NZ racing would do well if we had bookmakers. Doesn't really seem to have worked from what I have seen.

[Freda]

Australian racing has bookmakers and it has worked VERY well indeed.

I've seen an idea mooted that NZ TAB could revert to tote-only operations,  which would need only a skeleton staff, cost only a fraction of what it does now,  and act as virtually a clearing -house.  Much as it used to. 

License outside operators to run fixed odds and take a fee, thus eliminating risk and also the huge and seemingly ever-increasing cost of running the behemoth the TAB has become.

The idea has much merit to me, although I don't claim to be an expert.

[The Centaur]

10 hours ago, Freda said:

Australian racing has bookmakers and it has worked VERY well indeed.

I've seen an idea mooted that NZ TAB could revert to tote-only operations,  which would need only a skeleton staff, cost only a fraction of what it does now,  and act as virtually a clearing -house.  Much as it used to. 

License outside operators to run fixed odds and take a fee, thus eliminating risk and also the huge and seemingly ever-increasing cost of running the behemoth the TAB has become.

The idea has much merit to me, although I don't claim to be an expert.

On the money there. Those running racing should be looking to future technology usage. Even the slavish compliance to AML regulations could be streamlined costing next to nothing. I would query whether corporate bookmaking has worked well as opposed to the old style bagmen.

Bookmaking is open to disruptor technology i.e. as in the case of taxis being disrupted by Uber. In fact I'll make a prediction bookmakers as they operate now won't be around in 5 years time.

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Freda said:

Australian racing has bookmakers and it has worked VERY well indeed.

I've seen an idea mooted that NZ TAB could revert to tote-only operations,  which would need only a skeleton staff, cost only a fraction of what it does now,  and act as virtually a clearing -house.  Much as it used to. 

License outside operators to run fixed odds and take a fee, thus eliminating risk and also the huge and seemingly ever-increasing cost of running the behemoth the TAB has become.

The idea has much merit to me, although I don't claim to be an expert.

I think many a missing a few points here.  The issue with TAB NZ is they DON'T have bookmakers.  Many/most of the odds are set by computer.  Effectively a tote but with a higher risk profile to the TAB.

[Freda]

39 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think many a missing a few points here.  The issue with TAB NZ is they DON'T have bookmakers.  Many/most of the odds are set by computer.  Effectively a tote but with a higher risk profile to the TAB.

I don't know enough to argue with you.   But it seems to my simple mind that if they just kept to tote business and kept out of fixed odds it might work a lot better.

[nod]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

I don't know enough to argue with you.   But it seems to my simple mind that if they just kept to tote business and kept out of fixed odds it might work a lot better.

Do 5hey lose money on fixed odds ? -make less than the tote ? make more ?

[curious]

11 hours ago, nod said:

Do 5hey lose money on fixed odds ? -make less than the tote ? make more ?

Definitely make less. Margin hovers around 12% but has been as low as 2% one year. Risky business.

Edited March 24, 2023 by curious

[The Centaur]

Another aspect of the TAB to consider with the divestment is Voice Technology.

This could be a hugely popular with punters whereby their personal phone has all the options, voice words & commands stored. One could scan a QR Code which immediately sets up the phone for say Ellerslie quaddie. After being voiced in the bets are the reviewed and finally sent off. This could avoid duplicating TAB and NZTR websites in fact only need the NZTR website for raceform.

Hopefully all these options are considered with respect the TAB selloff. Anyone had experience with it overseas?

https://dontgetserious.com/the-rising-importance-of-voice-recognition-technology-in-gaming/

[The Centaur]

According to the TAB statement of intent's timeline there is supposed to be a review of totalizator betting mid 2023.

Does anyone have some info? Entain are not into tote betting so it would be foolish preempting the review by placing restrictions on tote betting in order to appease Entain. If Entain gets involved some way in NZ I'd like to see tote betting competing head on with bookmaking. That would seem fair. Competing to the point that tote betting is just a piece of software with no overheads. i.e. no middle men or as Freda has noted a skeleton staff.

[Freda]

That review will be very interesting. 

[The Centaur]

11 hours ago, Freda said:

That review will be very interesting. 

In all this TAB maneuvering where is NZTR? The Racing Act states in black and white that when there are proposed significant changes in TAB operations NZTR along with the other codes have to be consulted. Yet Sharrock has admitted he doesn't know the full details of the Entain deal. Not only Sharrock but his offsiders plus NZTR board have to know. Not knowing is breaking the law.

[Special Agent]

Yes, this not knowing has to be rubbish.  Their transperancy is non-existent, more like shattered glass.

Breaking the law doesn't seem to worry anyone in racing these days.  If a Racing Board does not know what is happening to the industry they are supposed to be running, any one of us could sit there smiling and nodding.

Is it my imagination, or are people in charge of anything these days just a pack of weak arses?

Edited April 17, 2023 by Special Agent

[Freda]

11 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Yes, this not knowing has to be rubbish.  Their transperancy is non-existent, more like shattered glass.

Breaking the law doesn't seem to worry anyone in racing these days.  If a Racing Board does not know what is happening to the industry they are supposed to be running, any one of us could sit there smiling and nodding.

Is it my imagination, or are people in charge of anything these days just a pack of weak arses?

Pretty much.

[Freda]

14 hours ago, The Centaur said:

In all this TAB maneuvering where is NZTR? The Racing Act states in black and white that when there are proposed significant changes in TAB operations NZTR along with the other codes have to be consulted. Yet Sharrock has admitted he doesn't know the full details of the Entain deal. Not only Sharrock but his offsiders plus NZTR board have to know. Not knowing is breaking the law.

If, as you indicated earlier, Entain do not 'do' tote betting, there might be an opportunity for clubs to run their own on-course tote .  It's a bit pre-nineteen fifties, but there might be a way to make it work.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Special Agent said:

Is it my imagination, or are people in charge of anything these days just a pack of weak arses?

Not so much weak arses but closer to incompetent troughers.  Mackenzie was a classic and Birnie has his nose in many troughs.

[The Centaur]

10 hours ago, Freda said:

If, as you indicated earlier, Entain do not 'do' tote betting, there might be an opportunity for clubs to run their own on-course tote .  It's a bit pre-nineteen fifties, but there might be a way to make it work.

Absolutely you have nailed it. Sponsors are not interested sponsoring the TAB but are with clubs. Therefore in order to give sponsors maximum exposure a way has to be found legally merging sponsors with the betting platform.

Modern technology should have meant greatly reducing the the cost of processing bets. Instead these parasites have done the opposite in order to line their pockets. Clubs can run their own pools due to technology with cost being offset by sponsors. In fact just for local racing, clubs can go it alone without the TAB.  Why should they worry who bets on sport, greyhounds or overseas racing.

[curious]

Wouldn't clubs still need a national or international platform through which punters could bet on their events? It would make me very nervous clubs operating a betting platform. Many have already paid the price of venturing into business areas where they have little or no expertise or experience. A lot can't even perform their core business like producing suitable tracks for the events they are conducting.

Edited April 18, 2023 by curious

[The Centaur]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Wouldn't clubs still need a national or international platform through which punters could bet on their events? It would make me very nervous clubs operating a betting platform. Many have already paid the price of venturing into business areas where they have little or no expertise or experience. A lot can't even perform their core business like producing suitable tracks for the events they are conducting.

The clubs would combine having one outfit doing it for them. Give more responsibility to banks services for ID and financial transactions. Inputing bets could be several ways eg scanning, voice or just sending a few numbers without the need for a flashy website. The key is market the sponsors products and services not spend millions on pushing one half witted bet type promotion over another. RACING DOES NOT NEED THE TAB. ( or any other parasitic outfit)

[Freda]

12 hours ago, curious said:

Wouldn't clubs still need a national or international platform through which punters could bet on their events? It would make me very nervous clubs operating a betting platform. Many have already paid the price of venturing into business areas where they have little or no expertise or experience. A lot can't even perform their core business like producing suitable tracks for the events they are conducting.

That's very true.  And I don't have the technological know-how to even imagine how to operate such a system. But some dialogue is never a bad thing.

I see it as being a modest, local, on-course offering., at least for starters.   Entain - if it happens, which is by no means a certainty - can do the flash stuff.

[The Centaur]

10 hours ago, Freda said:

That's very true.  And I don't have the technological know-how to even imagine how to operate such a system. But some dialogue is never a bad thing.

I see it as being a modest, local, on-course offering., at least for starters.   Entain - if it happens, which is by no means a certainty - can do the flash stuff.

Perhaps we should inquire about the Minister's know-how. Its seems ridiculous that the future of racing in NZ should depend on Macanulty's judgement. Being a politician not having job losses is a goal. That cuts right across business principles where costs have to be trimmed. Straight away that a conflict. Just who is Macanulty listening to? The mind boggles.

[Doomed]

11 hours ago, Freda said:

That's very true.  And I don't have the technological know-how to even imagine how to operate such a system. But some dialogue is never a bad thing.

I see it as being a modest, local, on-course offering., at least for starters.   Entain - if it happens, which is by no means a certainty - can do the flash stuff.

An on course tote just wouldn't work given the small number of attendees and the tiny pools. Back in the days of on course only meetings the Riccarton Turf Club would do about $250,000 on course. These days the CJC would think they were doing well to turn over $50,000 on course.

[Assange]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:06 PM, The Centaur said:

In all this TAB maneuvering where is NZTR? The Racing Act states in black and white that when there are proposed significant changes in TAB operations NZTR along with the other codes have to be consulted. Yet Sharrock has admitted he doesn't know the full details of the Entain deal. Not only Sharrock but his offsiders plus NZTR board have to know. Not knowing is breaking the law.

Gotta agree here. Still think 25 year contract is going to have NZ racing by the short and curlies not too far down the line. Who in their right mind would agree to this.

[Doomed]

1 hour ago, Assange said:

Gotta agree here. Still think 25 year contract is going to have NZ racing by the short and curlies not too far down the line. Who in their right mind would agree to this.

It would only take about 5 years to stuff NZ racing, so probably not much difference between a 5 year or 25 year deal. We won't last 25 if they cock it up.

[Special Agent]

8 hours ago, The Centaur said:

Just who is Macanulty listening to? The mind boggles.

My concern also.

 

6 hours ago, Doomed said:

Back in the days of on course only meetings the Riccarton Turf Club would do about $250,000 on course.

Run by hard working volunteers with a respected following.

 

6 hours ago, Assange said:

25 year contract is going to have NZ racing by the short and curlies not too far down the line. Who in their right mind would agree to this.

Don't know but surely an idiot.