Basil

Definitely no on-course betting. Owners will be the only allowed spectators, so I assume there'll be basically no facilities open. Might have to rock up to one of the 'many' outlets the TAB claims are available in Chch. The Sandridge (gulp!) anyone?😄

Sorry, I should have said this is the list of outlets in what the TAB considers (very liberally) to be 'south Chch'.

Very interesting. I've attached the lists of available outlets I received from the TAB a couple of weeks ago in my ongoing correspondence with them on this matter. As you can see, The Club appears prominently as a full service TAB... Either my TAB correspondent is being deliberately duplicitous or the Wellington left hand doesn't know what the Christchurch right hand is doing.

Not to mention the RIU, or HRNZ, or the stewards, or the starter, or the All-Stars. And 561 times is surely a massive under-estimate. Given that it was an action that's hardly likely to inspire the confidence of the betting public, De Filippi was lucky to get away with just 7 days. By contrast, here's what a ridiculous stewards' decision really looks like: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/300095694/dual-olympian-disqualified-from-nz-crosscountry-title-for-spitting

Er, how can one 'namedrop' someone who's already the subject of the thread? You'll have to get up earlier than that Whip old son. And for those professing to be interested, I can confirm, very sadly, that none of the horses I had with BOM was Cullen. Ability-wise, not even when all put together...😪

Another hilarious little rant that manages to miss all its targets. When abuse is my only opponent, I know I've won the argument. And when I have you lecturing me on ‘comprehension’ and Basher presuming to teach me ‘logic’, I know I’m operating in a parallel universe. What’s next — HTP on grammar and spelling? Anyway, the matter is quite simple (for the nth time). All rules restricting the use of the whip are subjective. If one dislikes this subjectivity, then the only logical alternative is to get rid of the whip altogether. Anybody who rejects this and instead argues for a weakening of the rules reveals himself, ipso facto, to be a horse-basher. Just as importantly, that fact is revealed to the wider public. You obviously find this offensive, but, well, the truth is sometimes hurtful and no amount of bluster or non sequiturs is going to change it. End of.

I was thinking that Brian himself didn't look any older than when he last trained a horse for me 15 years ago!

Ah, another one who attempts to defend the indefensible. And yet one doesn't need to have an IQ of 180 to realise that, regardless of one's own particular fetishes, the bashing of horses is one of the things that most turns other people off racing. No amount of abusing me will change that. It takes a special kind of brain to not only advocate for what's wrong, but also for what's contrary to one's own interests. No wonder racing is in such sorry shape. No mention of Arden Rooney I see...

Brodie's Basher's modus operandi: (i) insist repeatedly that X is white (horses should be bashed) and (ii) when challenged, insist that X isn't really white at all (horses shouldn't really be bashed). It's like arguing with a Jansenist! What Brodie Basher wants to return us to: https://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gws/ws/r/infohorsews/wsd06x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-rSite&Arg=TRUE&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=216475 Arden Rooney never raced again after that week.

Well yes, a horse-basher wouldn't, would he? But once again Brodie Basher, you don't seem to be agreeing with yourself. This change actually takes us closer to no use of the whip at all, which you are so vehemently against. Not only that, but if Oz is any indication we'll see far more drivers getting hit with fines and suspensions. Give it a couple of weeks and you'll be moaning more than Alison Mau.

I already said I agreed with that. My point was more general: that in a system that cannot work — centralised control — mistakes are inevitable. Some are dumber than others for sure, but they're guaranteed to happen, regardless of who's in charge. On the plus side, at least there's no suggestion that the "the people looking after" the detainees have been engaging in rumpy-pumpy with them, as was apparently the case in Oz...😀

Brodie Basher, are you on the sauce? You keep telling us you're an Ayn Rand, free-market, kind of guy, yet when I point to an example of the impossibility of effective centralised control — the groundrock foundation of socialism — you throw a hissy fit. They do say that disagreeing with yourself is the first sign of madness...

Yeah, that's not a good look at all. But it does illustrate just how hard, if not impossible, it is for a bureaucracy to cover all bases against an unseen enemy. At some point the government's going to have to ask itself: "is there a better way?"

Just a follow-up on this matter. After weeks of trying, I finally got a response from the Cashmere Club about what had happened: "Hi Basil, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. During the lockdown the TAB advised us they were cutting our commission they paid us to nil. As a result we were not going to be paid for the labour of operating their terminal so we had to return it as It was unsustainable to operate. Please note we still have a Self Service TAB Pod at the club by the stairs as you go up to the pool hall. Regards,..." Zero commission?! That seemed hard to believe, so I contacted the TAB asking them to confirm. I got this: "Hi Basil, Your email was passed onto me from our helpdesk however as remuneration is part of an agreement TAB and Cashmere club have I am not able to discuss the specifics. However as Ben stated, TAB and Cashmere Club representatives entered into discussions around viability and the decision was made that it was unsustainable to continue with the manned terminal however the Club still provides TAB services via the SST terminal which allows customers to place all bets, redeem winning vouchers and deposit into TAB accounts. The Club also shows racing via the Trackside One and Trackside Two tv channels. If you have any additional questions or concerns I have cc'd in Ben from Cashmere Club who will be able to assist. Thanks," I'm not surprised that zero commission is "unsustainable"! If that's how TABs are now being remunerated, I'm amazed there are any left at all.

And how long do you think NZ could have remained as the North Korea of the South Pacific? I'm pretty much with the chief here. If it's a choice between (i) a new normal of the NZ government ordering a lockdown every few months for the foreseeable future and (ii) the Swedish approach, I say "Go ABBA!" It may sound a bit hard-hearted, but that's better than being soft-headed.

Whoosh! I'm guessing comprehension wasn't your strongest subject at school WS, but perhaps you should try reading what I said again. You never know — a little light might penetrate the gloom... The funny thing is that your list of detailed suggestions for the TAB would, if they were sustainable, follow automatically from my privatisation suggestion. So I guess we kind of agree, but differ on how it might be best achieved (micro-management rarely works).

I agree that harness racing (NZ racing generally) is locked in a downwards spiral. But your proposed solutions: • get rid of the All Stars; • allow horse-bashing; • force the TAB to take any and all bets, regardless of potential losses; • sack everybody earning more than $50K/year at NZR, HRNZ and the TAB; • whitewash all transgressions by trainers and drivers who aren't part of the All Stars; • ban all journalists who report these transgressions seem unlikely to help very much. Actually, at the risk of provoking further howls of outrage, I'd go so far as to suggest they'd make things worse. Much worse. Humility is a virtue, so I don't profess to know what would improve things. It's quite possible that nothing would, and that NZ racing is irrevocably doomed. But a good start would be to privatise the TAB and allowed unfettered competition in that market. It might not rescue racing, and it probably wouldn't solve your 'access' problems, but it would at least get the taxpayer off the hook.

Facts are such inconvenient things, aren't they — trying to refute them causes all logic to fly out the window. Anyway, it really comes down to this — would you prefer a Cup field with 10 top-line racehorses all from the same stable or one with 15 hacks and 2nd-raters all from different stables? Apparently, you'd opt for the latter. Fair enough, everybody is different and has different priorities, but to me that's small-town thinking (like the Aussie rugby journalist who claimed that super rugby oz was superior to its NZ counterpart because it had more close games, conveniently overlooking the fact that they were close because they were basically cripple fights). Personally, I'd go for the former every time — what matters in *horse* racing is the quality of the horses, not the identity of their connections.

Each to his own, but I don't agree. Distance races at the track have long been completely dominated by the Kenyans (with the occasional interference of Ethiopians), but few have claimed that detracts from their competitiveness or the spectacle they provide. What matters is the standard and preparation of the horseflesh — who provides that preparation is, imho, largely immaterial.

So again, you have no answer that relies on even a nodding acquaintance with facts? Just hyperbole and red herrings...

So you have no answer then? Instead of relying on envy and prejudice, let's try focusing on some facts. One robust indicator of 'competitiveness' is time, since uncompetitive races are typically characterised by walk-round-and-sprint-home. Over the last 6 years (all won by All Stars), the average winning time in the Cup has been 3.55. Over the prior 6 years (none won by All Stars), the corresponding figure was 3.59. Four smegging seconds! Or about 50 metres! So don't try and tell anybody with a functioning brain stem that the period of All Stars domination has coincided with less competitive Cups — the evidence suggests exactly the opposite.

This reminds me of nothing so much as Churchill's observation about Baldwin: "he occasionally stumbled over the truth, but quickly picked himself up and carried on as though nothing had happened". You're quite right Brodie Basher that the TAB's current existence is due to Peters-enforced taxpayer generosity. And you're also right that this was due to a very flawed business model — if you've bothered to read the TAB accounts, you'll know that the main cause was large losses on fixed odds betting, so getting 'rid of the bookies' is also a stumble over the truth. So far, so good. However, this flash of insight appears to be nothing more than a passing fancy, as your preferred solution is to double down on the original problem and have the TAB incur greater, not smaller, losses on fixed odds. That will certainly guarantee the need for more taxpayer largesse. Brilliant!

I don't really follow the logic of this Happy. Non-competitive between stables, perhaps. But it's no less competitive between horses just because most of the contenders are in one stable. Indeed, it's probably more competitive because said contenders have had a similar (high) level of preparation. Or do you have some info on who the pre-ordained winner is? if so, please share! (can't remember the last time I cleaned up on a cup winner...)

With the greatest respect, no amount of pressure makes this sort of behaviour understandable. Of course, it's entirely up to you whether you censor the thread or not, but, imho, it would set an undesirable precedent. And it's not going to make the facts go away, or stop them being aired and discussed elsewhere. BTW, I didn't know (not sure what that says about me😀).

You're wasting your breath NON — this has been pointed out to Brodie Basher ad infinitum, but he seems unable to understand it (or is just unwilling to do so). When George Orwell posed the question: "What can you do against the lunatic who gives your arguments a fair hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy?”, he'd obviously just been talking to one of Brodie's Basher's ancestors.