Surely someone will take Peter Profit to the cleaners for this rubbish!

[Chief Stipe]

[Chief Stipe]

[Chief Stipe]

If Bute caused the recent deaths then the toxicology reports would have found traces.

The @Archie Butterfly is clueless and uses science reports as evidence when he clearly doesn't understand them.  He quotes one study that tested bute at TOXIC levels so you would expect undesirable outcomes.

One of these days this idiot is going to cross someone with money and time.

[the galah]

I've no idea what peter profit has written and i had thought you had earlier stated that you weren't a subscriber, not sure whether you changed that,but my point is unless people know what hes written in full then who knows whether there is any merit in it.

Hes an investigative racing journalist and its hard to think of anyone in nz who could be called that. 

So i'm not commenting on what hes written,but you have raised the topic of the recent positive returned by a runner from the telfer barn.

Heres the thing. The first time i have read anything in nz about the telfer positive was in the RIU decision on their website yesterday,regarding the horse concerned disqualification.

Why is it peter profit  had a headline about the Telfer positive on his website several weeks before anyone else knows of it?

Why are nz racing authorities trying to hide such things by giving them as little exposure as possible?

I had a bit of spare time and did a bit of research just for interests sake.

The drug the horse returned a positive for (phenylbutazone and oxyphenbutazone )has an interesting history.

It was first developed for use on humans in 1949 as an anti arthritic drug which gave pain relief and was an anti inflammatory,but by 1986 was banned from use in humans in most western countries because of its side effects. One of the main concerns was the drugs effect on bone marrow which resulted in some patients who had been prescribed it,(over a period of time or elderly),not being able to make enough new blood cells for the body to work normally. While this was relatively rare, that and other side effects resulted in its ban on use in humans.

Seemingly one of the  reasons it took so long to see the  bad side effects was because the testing trials were done on animals like rats and rabbits. With rats and rabbits and horses too,it metabolizes and is excreted 12 times faster than in humans which lead to misleading models for humans.

Vets started using it in the 1950's.it was considered  cheap and easy to administer and early on considered highly effective with minimal side effects for treating the symptoms of things like lameness.

it wasn't until 1967 that the first vet study on possible effects was officially published.

The 1968 kentucky derbywinner returned a positive to it after it was banned. The ban was lifted in 1974.In 1986 13 of the 16 kentucky derby runners had been administered it then it was banned again shortly after as they were getting too many law suits filed,for example jockeys being injured when their mounts fell when breaking a leg while running on the pain killer.

Then it got a lot of publicity when it was administered to a horse called wide awake who collapsed and died on the 3rd day(show jumping) of the badminton horse trials in 1976.Many argued it couldn't be linked to that but thresholds came in and then they totally banned it from that horse sport in 1993,lifted the ban in 2009 then banned it from use prior to competitions again the following year in 2010.

So in horse racing its still allowed and has threshold levels and its common for vets to prescribe. They say to stop using it 10 days out.

Apparently regular use can produce a cummulative effect on the readings if tested.

So whats all that mean.

Well we all know all drugs can have negative side effects. Doctors weigh up the positive side effects against the negative side effects when prescribing anything.

Vets do the same. But are vets or horse trainers actually placing enough weight on the negative effects some drugs they prescribe and trainers use? Are some trainers and vets prioritising financial gain and are they sometimes not giving the same thought and respect to their racehorses as they would a human? Is it ok that this happens.

Edited September 6, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

34 minutes ago, the galah said:

Vets do the same. But are vets or horse trainers actually placing enough weight on the negative effects some drugs they prescribe and trainers use? Are some trainers and vets prioritising financial gain and are they sometimes not giving the same thought and respect to their racehorses as they would a human? Is it ok that this happens.

Terrific writing Mr Galah. (your whole article above) and yes fully agree with you NOT to read that Archie Peter nonprofit stuff , as is damaging beyond belief to ones sanity (as well as not even a remote semblance of respect for the harness racing industry that guy has) i'd rather stick tooth picks in my eyes. wish he would.

After doing 20 years harness I then did 20 years vet , and can say that if I had did it the other way round, one could of had bucket-loads more success lol 😆. the negative effects to treating a horse,  are usually supplied by the Trainer i would suggest. there haven't been cases of vets going with milkshakes elephant juice caffiene etc. and things like steroids they can supply  but usually don't administer. Hey did you guys hear the Regazza Mach story this year?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Hes an investigative racing journalist and its hard to think of anyone in nz who could be called that. 

If he's an "investigative racing journalist" then I'm a Group 1 Trainer!!!!

Most of what he writes is pure speculation and defamatory.  Anything accurate he has copied from somewhere else.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Why is it peter profit  had a headline about the Telfer positive on his website several weeks before anyone else knows of it?

Because the RIB has more leaks than my mums colander!!!

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Heres the thing. The first time i have read anything in nz about the telfer positive was in the RIU decision on their website yesterday,regarding the horse concerned disqualification.

Here's the thing.  @Archie Butterfly links a recent bute positive to the previous deaths inferring that it was the cause.  If it was then why didn't the toxicology reports from the autopsies find evidence of bute?  BTW bute isn't a PED - it relieves pain but doesn't make a horse 5 seconds faster.

@Archie Butterfly is a fraud.

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Terrific writing Mr Galah. (your whole article above) and yes fully agree with you NOT to read that Archie Peter nonprofit stuff , as is damaging beyond belief to ones sanity (as well as not even a remote semblance of respect for the harness racing industry that guy has) i'd rather stick tooth picks in my eyes. wish he would.

After doing 20 years harness I then did 20 years vet , and can say that if I had did it the other way round, one could of had bucket-loads more success lol 😆. the negative effects to treating a horse,  are usually supplied by the Trainer i would suggest. there haven't been cases of vets going with milkshakes elephant juice caffiene etc. and things like steroids they can supply  but usually don't administer. Hey did you guys hear the Regazza Mach story this year?

Fair comment about vets.They do their best and have the welfare of those they treat as the top priority. 

But i think lines can become blurred sometimes when there is  pressure placed on vets by trainers to give their horses the latest legal treatment which may enhance performance.Also i think there is a prestige involved if you are a vet for a leading trainer,and with that comes added pressures. Also i think there occasionally have been vets who have shown a greater willingness to provide their knowledge on some matters to high achieving trainers,than they have other lesser known trainers. Sometimes that may be based on certain trainers being very good customers turnover wise,so thats understandable,but occasionally sometimes its not and there may be a little discrimination that has gone on.But hey thats life and business i suppose.  

The best vets i have known,(i haven't known that many),are in my opinion those who treat every person and every horse they see the same,in other words do whats best for the horse with both its short term and long term health and performance in mind and give honest assessment of that when required,irrespective of how good the trainer or horse is.

But vets also rely on honest information from trainers and trainers are often under pressure to achieve short term results,so sometimes they aren't always totally 100% honest given the pressure they are placed under from owners.

Trainers can often feel a lot of pressure to achieve results for their owners. Its a business where there is often high stress and pressure levels for those involved,which is often how a  horses health may occasionally be compromised or trivialised.Owners place a lot of pressure sometimes.Its not all straight forward.

 

[the galah]

12 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Because the RIB has more leaks than my mums colander!!!

i had to look up colander. yes my mum did have one of those.

I would class him as the nearest thing to an  investigative racing journalist i know.

 

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Here's the thing.  @Archie Butterfly links a recent bute positive to the previous deaths inferring that it was the cause.  If it was then why didn't the toxicology reports from the autopsies find evidence of bute?  BTW bute isn't a PED - it relieves pain but doesn't make a horse 5 seconds faster.

@Archie Butterfly is a fraud.

 

I have to admit when it comes to the telfer case he does seem to have speculated a bit there. But hey hes a punter so i guess thats just in his nature.

But just as he may be speculating as to a link in the cause of the telfer racehorse deaths,so are you when you say there was no evidence of bute.

The official reports i have just re read don't state that.

They do not state there was or wasn't the presence of bute in the horses system.

Why did they not publish the results of the tests they did in full to discount that.

The failure of the RIU and HRNZ to be totally transparent in the publishing of the results of their investigation has created the speculation we currently talk about.

Their brief press statements around the horses deaths could be taken two ways.

Archie butterfly is not at fault for their lack of transparency.

So we will have to agree to disagree about that chief.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Hey did you guys hear the Regazza Mach story this year?

Is that the horse nathan williamson trained. how is he going in australia?

[Gammalite]

52 minutes ago, the galah said:

Trainers can often feel a lot of pressure to achieve results for their owners. Its a business where there is often high stress and pressure levels for those involved,which is often how a  horses health may occasionally be compromised or trivialised.Owners place a lot of pressure sometimes.Its not all straight forward.

 

28 minutes ago, the galah said:

Is that the horse nathan williamson trained. how is he going in australia?

Exactly as you say, and to gain some performance, well the owner placed a lot of pressure on Mike Reed , a  long time distinguished trainer in WA to get the horse Regazzo Mach into the big Nullibor slot race this year. they paid $500,000 for Regazzo off Nathan and he was only performing moderately. The owner pressure ten-fold with these 'high-price' purchases.  I've seen it happen a few times. (trainer trying to get a BIG race result from high priced purchase over does it). 

Mike Reed gave 'Regazzo' some anabolic steroid (that makes em feel good and go good) , and got 3 positives in January so 3 race DQ's and 6 months disqualified !! lol... they're a bit strong and long lasting the old steroids. Actually Mike's penalty ends tomorrow as it pans, so might be back training again next week. The horse still having only earned $150,000 lifetime . too much pressure. 

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

I have to admit when it comes to the telfer case he does seem to have speculated a bit there. But hey hes a punter so i guess thats just in his nature.

But just as he may be speculating as to a link in the cause of the telfer racehorse deaths,so are you when you say there was no evidence of bute.

If he is an "investigative journalist" what is he doing "speculating"?

9 hours ago, the galah said:

They do not state there was or wasn't the presence of bute in the horses system.

Why did they not publish the results of the tests they did in full to discount that.

The failure of the RIU and HRNZ to be totally transparent in the publishing of the results of their investigation has created the speculation we currently talk about.

Rubbish.  Are you saying NO toxicology tests were undertaken?  Also that such tests would have departed from the normal testing protocols?  That is tested for less?

To quote the RIB:

"Autopsies on the horses, by three separate veterinarians, showed each died from different forms of heart failure, the summary said. The findings were reviewed by another veterinarian.

Samples taken from the three horses returned clear results for prohibited substances."

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

If he is an "investigative journalist" what is he doing "speculating"?

Rubbish.  Are you saying NO toxicology tests were undertaken?  Also that such tests would have departed from the normal testing protocols?  That is tested for less?

To quote the RIB:

"Autopsies on the horses, by three separate veterinarians, showed each died from different forms of heart failure, the summary said. The findings were reviewed by another veterinarian.

Samples taken from the three horses returned clear results for prohibited substances."

Read what the above actually says.

"Clear results for prohibited substances'.

It does Not say that the results found no trace of the use of prohibited substances.

Theres clearly a difference.

Its all in the wording to create a perception that they want people to have.

My conclusion from reading the press releases was that prohibited substances may have been found,but at levels below the threshold that would make them illegal.

If they truly wanted to be transparent and stop speculation,they would have released the results of the toxicology tests they undertook.Sometimes its more about what information they have that isn't disclosed. 

 

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

My conclusion from reading the press releases was that prohibited substances may have been found,but at levels below the threshold that would make them illegal.

I thought the sentence was quite succinct and unambiguous.

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Samples taken from the three horses returned clear results for prohibited substances."

Phenylbutazone isn't a prohibited substance if below the following levels:

4.2.2. Phenylbutazone at a mass concentration of 100.0 micrograms per litre in plasma.

That is a very very low level which is reached 5 days after administration of the normal dose.

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

If they truly wanted to be transparent and stop speculation,they would have released the results of the toxicology tests they undertook.Sometimes its more about what information they have that isn't disclosed. 

As you know I've long argued that they should release the detailed results for any positive returned.  However they are reluctant to do that as it will increase the debate about what are performance enhancing levels when it is easier just to have zero and ignore environmental contamination.

[Gammalite]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:28 PM, the galah said:

On 9/6/2023 at 7:04 PM, Gammalite said:

Hey did you guys hear the Regazza Mach story this year?

Is that the horse nathan williamson trained. how is he going in australia?

Hey was just reading where a heap of galloping blokes in Victoria have got positives the same as Mike Reed , the WA trainer of Regazzo Mach got with Steroid use , as mentioned earlier. Might be the same sort of stuff doing the rounds. 

Seems silly to me as years and years ago , you knew Steroid derivatives were traceable and even tiny doses were 'long lasting' . Kavanagh got lucky and eventually escaped the Cobalt fiasco , unlike some, but wonder how he will get out of this one lol? 

here's a bit of the article. Chief would know of some of these Trainers . they all do quite well generally in Vic country racing.  >>>>>>>

Racing Analytical Services Limited reported the urine samples taken from the five horses contained Formestane (a steroidal aromatase inhibitor) and 4-Hydroxytestosterone (an anabolic androgenic steroid), which are prohibited substances under Australian Rules of Racing.

Racing Victoria reported the five trainers and horses involved in the inquiry are: Smiley Chan (Lake Tai), Mark and Levi Kavanagh (Circle Of Magic), Julius Sandhu (Alphaville), Symon Wilde (Sirileo Miss) and Amy and Ash Yargi (Yulara).

Sirileo Miss is a multiple Group winner who has won $963,000 prizemoney.

Two of the five samples also contained the prohibited 6a-Hydroxyandrost-4-Ene3,17-Dione (a metabolite of a steroidal aromatase inhibitor).

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Hey was just reading where a heap of galloping blokes in Victoria have got positives the same as Mike Reed , the WA trainer of Regazzo Mach got with Steroid use , as mentioned earlier. Might be the same sort of stuff doing the rounds. 

Seems silly to me as years and years ago , you knew Steroid derivatives were traceable and even tiny doses were 'long lasting' . Kavanagh got lucky and eventually escaped the Cobalt fiasco , unlike some, but wonder how he will get out of this one lol? 

here's a bit of the article. Chief would know of some of these Trainers . they all do quite well generally in Vic country racing.  >>>>>>>

Racing Analytical Services Limited reported the urine samples taken from the five horses contained Formestane (a steroidal aromatase inhibitor) and 4-Hydroxytestosterone (an anabolic androgenic steroid), which are prohibited substances under Australian Rules of Racing.

Racing Victoria reported the five trainers and horses involved in the inquiry are: Smiley Chan (Lake Tai), Mark and Levi Kavanagh (Circle Of Magic), Julius Sandhu (Alphaville), Symon Wilde (Sirileo Miss) and Amy and Ash Yargi (Yulara).

Sirileo Miss is a multiple Group winner who has won $963,000 prizemoney.

Two of the five samples also contained the prohibited 6a-Hydroxyandrost-4-Ene3,17-Dione (a metabolite of a steroidal aromatase inhibitor).

 

Bit weird this one.  Easily detected substance - obviously.  A positive puts the horses out for 12 months!

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

Even weirder that a sixth horse returned a positive but so did the control sample.  Something not quite right with these positives.

[Chief Stipe]

Seems a classic case of environmental contamination.

[Chief Stipe]

@the galah what's your take?  Why would a trainer use a known and detectable prohibited drug?  

It's really odd that there were six initial positives with one having their control sample returning a positive.  That's contamination.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

@the galah what's your take?  Why would a trainer use a known and detectable prohibited drug?  

It's really odd that there were six initial positives with one having their control sample returning a positive.  That's contamination.

My thoughts?No one uses a known detectable drug. They only use drugs that they believe aren't detectable or believe will have left the horses system enough to not show up in testing,but still can enhance performance.E.g. epo

Your comments about the control sample appear correct.I bet someone was relieved they got that done.

I think gammalite has very likely hit the nail on the head when he has said ........might be the same sort of stuff doing the rounds. 

History shows when you get clusters of these things,they often can be traced back to one particular source.  

Edited September 8, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

Your comments about the control sample appear correct.I bet someone was relieved they got that done.

What do you mean by that?  Surely you are not suggesting it was a deliberate contamination of the control?

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

I think gammalite has very likely hit the nail on the head when he has said ........might be the same sort of stuff doing the rounds. 

What?  A food supplement that may have been contaminated?  

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

History shows when you get clusters of these things,they often can be traced back to one particular source.  

Yes and more often than not environmental or feed production contamination.

2 trainers Cranbourne

1 Flemington 

1 Ballarat

1 Mornington 

[Chief Stipe]

Circle of Magic - positive 3rd March when second.  Wins 22nd March no positive.

Lake Tai - 1st 22 February - positive.

1st 6 February - no positive.  1st 8 April no positive.

Alphaville - 1st 24 February - positive.

1st 1 January - no positive.

Sirleo Miss - 1st 11 March - positive

1st 24 March - no positive

Yulara - 1st 13 April - positive

1st 14 January - no positive

1st 10 March - no positive