Surely someone will take Peter Profit to the cleaners for this rubbish!

[Chief Stipe]

@the galah so with your extensive knowledge can you explain to us all how a detectable drug, an anabolic steroid, can improve performance in a racehorse in a one-off administration?  Given that anabolic steroids are used to create muscle mass and or repair muscle injury.  In this case the steroid detected has a therapeutic approved use for treating breast cancer in human females. 

[Gammalite]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

@the galah so with your extensive knowledge can you explain to us all how a detectable drug, an anabolic steroid, can improve performance in a racehorse in a one-off administration?  Given that anabolic steroids are used to create muscle mass and or repair muscle injury.  In this case the steroid detected has a therapeutic approved use for treating breast cancer in human females. 

Of course they can help in a one -off administration . the horse gets mental stimulation from the drug and performs differently towhat it might without it. sometimes mares squeal like stallions when another horse is close by, etc.

In the race horse it's as much 'Mental' training as 'physical'. you can pour the same work-load into a Barnful of horses and have them all fit enough to race , BUT  and it's a HUGE BUT (lol 😆) only a very few are 'tuned ' to win . Horse's just like people and dogs, >> think. you mentally tune them to 'dive-bomb' opponents, cope with sitting parked out, even get on the truck in the first place  lol.

Steroids make them think differently to what they otherwise might ... and thus it really helps racing performance .. almost always....  I wouldn't worry about muscle mass theory. Here's a little more in an article >>>>>>>>>>

First used medically in the 1940's, steroids are very potent anti-inflammatory medications that have many uses in human and equine veterinary medicine. They are based on and modeled after the body's own corticosteroid hormone cortisol, which has many vital effects in the body, including a strong anti-inflammatory effect.

Steroids work by blocking the body's main inflammatory cascade (arachidonic acid cascade) at a high level, reducing the production of many inflammatory mediators and reducing the action of inflammatory cells. This reduces the body's response to an insult, and reduces body-wide inflammation, as well as local effects of swelling, redness, itchiness and irritation and pain.

Many different synthetic steroid types have been derived from the basic molecular model of cortisone. The most common injectable steroids used in equine veterinary practice are dexamethasone, methylprednisolone acetate (Depomedrol), triamcinolone acetate (Vetalog, Kenalog), and betamethasone. Each of these has different effects, potency and duration of action.

In equine veterinary medicine steroids are commonly used for a multitude of conditions including allergic skin conditions, airway disease, anaphylaxis, brain and spinal cord injury, autoimmune diseases and shock. Oral medications are often given when long-term treatment is needed.

[Chief Stipe]

 

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Of course they can help in a one -off administration . the horse gets mental stimulation from the drug and performs differently towhat it might without it. sometimes mares squeal like stallions when another horse is close by, etc.

In the race horse it's as much 'Mental' training as 'physical'. you can pour the same work-load into a Barnful of horses and have them all fit enough to race , BUT  and it's a HUGE BUT (lol 😆) only a very few are 'tuned ' to win . Horse's just like people and dogs, >> think. you mentally tune them to 'dive-bomb' opponents, cope with sitting parked out, even get on the truck in the first place  lol.

Steroids make them think differently to what they otherwise might ... and thus it really helps racing performance .. almost always....  I wouldn't worry about muscle mass theory. Here's a little more in an article >>>>>>>>>>

First used medically in the 1940's, steroids are very potent anti-inflammatory medications that have many uses in human and equine veterinary medicine. They are based on and modeled after the body's own corticosteroid hormone cortisol, which has many vital effects in the body, including a strong anti-inflammatory effect.

Steroids work by blocking the body's main inflammatory cascade (arachidonic acid cascade) at a high level, reducing the production of many inflammatory mediators and reducing the action of inflammatory cells. This reduces the body's response to an insult, and reduces body-wide inflammation, as well as local effects of swelling, redness, itchiness and irritation and pain.

Many different synthetic steroid types have been derived from the basic molecular model of cortisone. The most common injectable steroids used in equine veterinary practice are dexamethasone, methylprednisolone acetate (Depomedrol), triamcinolone acetate (Vetalog, Kenalog), and betamethasone. Each of these has different effects, potency and duration of action.

In equine veterinary medicine steroids are commonly used for a multitude of conditions including allergic skin conditions, airway disease, anaphylaxis, brain and spinal cord injury, autoimmune diseases and shock. Oral medications are often given when long-term treatment is needed.

@Gammalite this is bollocks.  How it was in your day is not how it is today.  Your hypothesis is flawed in a number of respects:

1. The drug in question in these cases has zero tolerance and is easily detectable.  It is outright banned;
2. There are other "stimulants" that you could use to get what you call "mental stimulus" that are less detectable but more importantly carry less of a penalty;
3. All the horses involved performed as good or better (winning) before or after the positive yet returned negatives.  

One question is how did the horses continue to race AFTER the positive was discovered?  Did the authorities hold back?  Did they do retrospective testing and discovered an anomaly?  If theyl latter you would have expected the other wins to have returned positives

You can hardly call this a cluster as it occurs over a broad time span and over different training facilities and trainers.  Where is the common link?  I'm not even sure the Stewards are convinced going by the following statement:

“The Stewards request that no inference should be drawn against any person mentioned in this report nor should any inference be drawn by the application of AR 248(4) to the five horses.”  

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

You can hardly call this a cluster as it occurs over a broad time span and over different training facilities and trainers.  Where is the common link? 

 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

  Your hypothesis is flawed in a number of respects:

Why ? thanks for your support Chief . I was just commenting on how a dose of steroid works , and some of the things it works on , in an article. Yes they've been around a long time.

Can NOT comment on what the common Link is , as Don't know (regarding the Vic Trainers with swabs early this year ) . Probably the same Vet supplying the stables would be my  'humble guess' .. Guess that could indeed be bollocks I spose .😄😂

Those Horses probably continued to race after as All the Checks are/were being made retested , etc........  the standardbred mentioned in this thread,  Regazzo Mach raced twice more in WA after his positive so was disqualified from All 3 races at beginning of this year. and the Trainer given the usual 6 months DQ .That finished yesterday for Mike Reed actually . Hopefully back licensed soon.... Not sure if the horse got 12 months DQ like the gallopers get or Not. I'll have to try and find out that answer...

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Why ? thanks for your support Chief . I was just commenting on how a dose of steroid works , and some of the things it works on , in an article.

But you are generalising and quoting an article that isn't specific to this steroid.  It defies rational logic that  trainers would deliberately use this particular steroid.  

 

 

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But you are generalising and quoting an article that isn't specific to this steroid.  It defies rational logic that  trainers would deliberately use this particular steroid.  

 

 

Yes it all seems a bit weird. I'm not a fan of seeing Trainers charged , horses reputations tarnished and owners losing the races too, so really hope you are right and there is a technical error somewhere in the testing procedure . There might of been a faulty batch of a product in the manufacturing bottles ?  I don't know.  I give up. 

Trainers don't deliberately use any steroid when quizzed lol. One unlucky bloke here in QLD got a horse from Tassie once and won with it about 10 days after being in stable. Tested positive to a steroid admin ed by the Tassie trainer. So trainer here did the 6 months DQ lol. think he did a milk-run for the 'time' and quite enjoyed a break away from the horses actually 😅.

[paleface adios]

I see all horses have gone to other stables from the doyleston toy biff stable anyone know why?

[the galah]

Google is a great thing if you want to learn about this stuff.

After doing a bit of research my take is these trainers are highly likely cheats who will access and use the latest designer drug that they think they can get away with.

Why would a feed merchant have any of this stuff and why if they did would they put it in the feed they sell. That explanation makes no sense at all to me.  

I don't profess to be an expert on all the different things that some steroids metabolise into when put into a horses or humans body,but what is logical is the drugs that were detected in the system of the 5 trainers horses who returned  positives,were designed to enhance performance and build muscle and increase strength.

Formestane has been recognised as a performance enhancer and been banned from human sports for some time and its use in equine sports has been detected in the last decade or so and banned in equine sports as well due to integrity being compromised.

It seems formestane  rapidly breaks down in the body, it metabolises into several different things,one of which is hydroxytesterone which is an  anabolic androgenic steroids(AAS). AAS  make the body build muscle and increase strength.

Anabolic steroids can have long lasting performance enhancing effects while no longer being detectable in testing.

Studies have shown the use of formestane is best detected by testing for hydroxytesterone and one study said can be detected up to 34 hours after use.

These type of steroids are associated with delayed development of epiphyseal growth plates in standardbreds which are crucial in bone growth and elongation.

There use has potential long term risks of injuries in training and racing.

Obviously if used in standardbreds,trainers may have to use things like pain inhibitors to allow horses to race and be trained while having soreness.

These trainers deserve to be disqualified for some time in my opinion.

Edited September 9, 2023 by the galah

[paleface adios]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:53 PM, Chief Stipe said:

 

One of these days this idiot is going to cross someone with money and time.

mark jones is going to get him

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, the galah said:

I don't profess to be an expert on all the different things that some steroids metabolise into when put into a horses or humans body,but what is logical is the drugs that were detected in the system of the 5 trainers horses who returned  positives,were designed to enhance performance and build muscle and increase strength.

Formestane has been recognised as a performance enhancer and been banned from human sports for some time and its use in equine sports has been detected in the last decade or so and banned in equine sports as well due to integrity being compromised.

I suggest you google again and read past the headlines.

You don't build muscle mass with one shot of an anabolic steroid.  It takes a sustained period of administration.  As far as we know these 5 cases have only returned one positive over their race careers to date.  

[the galah]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I suggest you google again and read past the headlines.

You don't build muscle mass with one shot of an anabolic steroid.  It takes a sustained period of administration.  As far as we know these 5 cases have only returned one positive over their race careers to date.  

I don't need to google again. I never mentioned one shot,so don't know why you suggest i did..

If they are going to use performance enhancers,then i'm sure they would have taken advice as to how to use them to get the best effects. Obviously given the positives,they got the testable time frame wrong. 

Anabolic steroids are used to increase the bodies natural rate of building muscle and in turn fat burning capabilities when adhering to a healthy exercise and diet regimen.

So when anabolic steroids are used with a healthy body,their body will use the hormones to increase their weight through muscle gain,thus improvung performance.

I think the trainers concerned don't treat their horses with the respect they should.

i goggled the harness trainer gammalite mentioned,Mark reed who trained regazzo mach.He was found to have used a different anabolic steroid on Regazzo mach.That was after out of competition testing,not race day testing.

Gammalite said they paid a big price for him. Now hes stood down from raving for 12 months.

People shouldn't have any sympathy for the owner of regazzo mach.  He  had his horse trained by someone with a terrible record. I googled Mark reed and he has been put out several times over the last 2 decades for milkshaking both harness  and gallopers as well 3 times being put out for his own drug use for the likes of meth.Twice in the last 5 years. And that is who the owner of regazzo mach sent his his horse to. What a mug.

Mark Reed actually is what i believe is a typical case.I believe the trainers who use  performance enhancers in the past, will very likely be looking to gain an edge in the future,irrespective of whether they have been caught previously.And trainers who take drugs themselves,whether it be meth or mdma or whatever,are most likely to view the use of drugs on their horses as being acceptable.

Edited September 10, 2023 by the galah

[Rangatira]

22 hours ago, paleface adios said:

I see all horses have gone to other stables from the doyleston toy biff stable anyone know why?

Flat out with breaking in ?

[Taku Umanga]

On 9/09/2023 at 7:16 PM, paleface adios said:

I see all horses have gone to other stables from the doyleston toy biff stable anyone know why?

Temporary move due to trainer injury

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, the galah said:

I don't need to google again. I never mentioned one shot,so don't know why you suggest i did..

That's the inference from your stance on these positives.  You've automatically assumed guilt.  If any advantage was to be gained in terms of horse development then they would have had to have had multiple doses and avoided detection over a long period of time.

It may have been used topically as a cream to assist in muscle injury repair.  But that is hardly performance enhancing.

It has been illegal since 2014 the only way to obtain it would be by very clandestine means using a black market.

Why do that when the drug is easily testable?  As for @Gammalite assertion that a one off treatment could induce a change in mental attitude the drug has a half life of 4 days so to avoid detection you wouod have to dose the horse at least a week out from competition.  Hardly likely in those circumstances to induce the desired reaction.

With modern testing techniques anabolic steroids can be detected a month or more after the last use.  Given the race patterns of the horses involved it seems odd that other positives weren't produced.  If there was widespread abuse why didn't other horses in the respective stables produce positives?  

 

14 hours ago, the galah said:

Anabolic steroids are used to increase the bodies natural rate of building muscle and in turn fat burning capabilities when adhering to a healthy exercise and diet regimen.

So when anabolic steroids are used with a healthy body,their body will use the hormones to increase their weight through muscle gain,thus improvung performance.

I think the trainers concerned don't treat their horses with the respect they should.

Again you are assuming guilt.  As I've said before the use would have had have been over a prolonged period of time to increase lean muscle mass.  The drug in question isn't the most  effective one at achieving that outcome.

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's the inference from your stance on these positives.  You've automatically assumed guilt.  If any advantage was to be gained in terms of horse development then they would have had to have had multiple doses and avoided detection over a long period of time.

It may have been used topically as a cream to assist in muscle injury repair.  But that is hardly performance enhancing.

It has been illegal since 2014 the only way to obtain it would be by very clandestine means using a black market.

Why do that when the drug is easily testable?  As for @Gammalite assertion that a one off treatment could induce a change in mental attitude the drug has a half life of 4 days so to avoid detection you wouod have to dose the horse at least a week out from competition.  Hardly likely in those circumstances to induce the desired reaction.

With modern testing techniques anabolic steroids can be detected a month or more after the last use.  Given the race patterns of the horses involved it seems odd that other positives weren't produced.  If there was widespread abuse why didn't other horses in the respective stables produce positives?  

 

Again you are assuming guilt.  As I've said before the use would have had have been over a prolonged period of time to increase lean muscle mass.  The drug in question isn't the most  effective one at achieving that outcome.

Yes ,i have assumed guilt.Its like getting caught for drink driving. Theres the same assumption of guilt as test results are pretty straight forward.

Just googled it and it comes up for sale on line,mostly overseas gyms and places that sell body builder products.

Read some of the body building chat sites and they talk about the high it gives users,that the sense of well being is unreal,that they feel a million bucks,etc.

From the studies i have read,after use it only is testable for days,not weeks like you suggest. Also depends on whether the horse is treated with something else to help limit the time its testable.

The best way to test is out of competition testing. Thats how they caught the trainer of regazzo mach. He was using a different steroid.

Also ,depends on the type and capabilities of the testing to uncover it.

To avoid detection and still gain benefits,its used  in pre training to gain muscle mass which will be retained for a period of time after steroid use is discontinued.Thats why out of competition is so important.

They should be focusing on out of competition in nz more,instead of using resources to target people who obviously don't give their horses anything.They should be doing regular out of competition testing at stables that have had positives in the last 5 years.

The theory you have about no one off/top up treatments. Why would a user not do that if they believe that it is not testable after just a few days.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, the galah said:

Yes ,i have assumed guilt.Its like getting caught for drink driving. Theres the same assumption of guilt as test results are pretty straight forward.

It's not the same.  You are assigning guilty to the Trainer who may or may not have administered the drug.  I would say it was very very rare for a driver have been administered alcohol without them knowing!

 

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Just googled it and it comes up for sale on line,mostly overseas gyms and places that sell body builder products.

Try and get it into New Zealand or Australia illegally.

16 minutes ago, the galah said:

From the studies i have read,after use it only is testable for days,not weeks like you suggest. Also depends on whether the horse is treated with something else to help limit the time its testable.

Cites (links please).

20 minutes ago, the galah said:

The theory you have about no one off/top up treatments. Why would a user not do that if they believe that it is not testable after just a few days.

 

20 minutes ago, the galah said:

To avoid detection and still gain benefits,its used  in pre training to gain muscle mass which will be retained for a period of time after steroid use is discontinued.

You've contradicted yourself.

[Chief Stipe]

59 minutes ago, the galah said:

From the studies i have read,after use it only is testable for days,not weeks like you suggest. 

I'm sure the FEDS or the trainers have taken hair samples to test.  The metabolites can be found up to six months.

Formestane can occur endogenously in some mammals including humans and bovine.

BTW 4-Hydroxytestosterone is a metabolite of Formestane.

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

It's not the same.  You are assigning guilty to the Trainer who may or may not have administered the drug.  I would say it was very very rare for a driver have been administered alcohol without them knowing!

 

Try and get it into New Zealand or Australia illegally.

Cites (links please).

 

You've contradicted yourself.

So say your a trainer, or say you were a bloodstock agent on the client list of the recent performance enhancing dope pusher in the usa and made regular trips to where many of his other clients were,or say you were an owner associated with a stable,or a combination of these

Your saying every time they travel overseas, they are searched at the airport or mail they may have sent to themselves or an intermediary person is searched by customs.

Who are you kidding.You know that happening is very rare.

No i haven't contradicted myself. 

As far as links,i don't know how to post them.Just google it . Many there .the most recent one i read was from about 4 years ago.

If you insist it can be detected at least a month after use like you say it can,then how about you post the link to that. i don't think that exists.

Edited September 11, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm sure the FEDS or the trainers have taken hair samples to test.  The metabolites can be found up to six months.

Formestane can occur endogenously in some mammals including humans and bovine.

BTW 4-Hydroxytestosterone is a metabolite of Formestane.

I haven't been able to find anything specifically about that or what people or trainers do to avoid detection of that method,but maybe they should focus on hair testing more.All thats a bit over my head.

it obviously would be an expensive process. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

Talking about testing.Not horse related,but not that long ago we rented  a house that appeared it may have  mould on the back of some curtains when we moved in. A nice house,but hadn't noticed the back of the curtains.

Anyway,the real estate lady said  they had been told it wasn't mould,even though they agreed it looked like mould.So i did my own inquiries.

I found to do the proper test for mould would cost me over $2000. That curtains aren't covered in the tenancy act according to the tenancy tribunal  lady and the healthy homes people said that wasn't their area of expertise.

Luckily the real estate people agreed to replace the curtains but i found it all a bit strange and seemed to be a loophole to expect a tenant to have to pay such high testing costs to prove mould. 

 

[Brodie]

49 minutes ago, the galah said:

Talking about testing.Not horse related,but not that long ago we rented  a house that appeared it may have  mould on the back of some curtains when we moved in. A nice house,but hadn't noticed the back of the curtains.

Anyway,the real estate lady said  they had been told it wasn't mould,even though they agreed it looked like mould.So i did my own inquiries.

I found to do the proper test for mould would cost me over $2000. That curtains aren't covered in the tenancy act according to the tenancy tribunal  lady and the healthy homes people said that wasn't their area of expertise.

Luckily the real estate people agreed to replace the curtains but i found it all a bit strange and seemed to be a loophole to expect a tenant to have to pay such high testing costs to prove mould. 

 

If it looked like mould, smelt like mould, it would be mould.

what else would it be lol?

The tenant doesn’t have to pay to have curtains tested for mould, but if they take over the property without mould on the curtains it is up to them to ensure that when they hand  it back over, there is no mould!

Any mould on the back of the curtains wouldve been picked up when the comprehensive initial property inspection report was completed by both parties!

 

[the galah]

39 minutes ago, Brodie said:

If it looked like mould, smelt like mould, it would be mould.

what else would it be lol?

The tenant doesn’t have to pay to have curtains tested for mould, but if they take over the property without mould on the curtains it is up to them to ensure that when they hand  it back over, there is no mould!

Any mould on the back of the curtains wouldve been picked up when the comprehensive initial property inspection report was completed by both parties!

 

They said it was because they had washed the curtains and the thermal lining stuck to them.

You would know more about that type of stuff with your property background. 

I'm with you though. I think it was mould as it was black and the previous tenant didn't open his windows and we noticed they dried the washing inside.people should air their house shouldn't they. More healthy that way.

I guess it pays to check the curtains beforehand like you mention.

I Did find a product that removes mould from curtains. Only $70.made in nz.

 

[the galah]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

.

If you insist it can be detected at least a month after use like you say it can,then how about you post the link to that. i don't think that exists.

 

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'm sure the FEDS or the trainers have taken hair samples to test.  The metabolites can be found up to six months.

Formestane can occur endogenously in some mammals including humans and bovine.

BTW 4-Hydroxytestosterone is a metabolite of Formestane.

By the way chief,i see you sort of answered my question with your reply. Hopefully your right and they can always detect it that way.

 

It would be interesting to know what % of tests in victorian gallops  racing are done on hair compared to urine and blood.

And what about nz,what % ,.i guess they would only do that if they had intelligence or a positive from urine or blood. They should be transparent about stuff like that.

I would imagine ,given the higher cost,the % for hair testing would be very low

It all seems like doing something after the fact. If they really want to catch cheats,in my opinion they should do more out of competition testing.

I have always thought they should be working more closely with customs as well.But they don't seem to bother doing that.  

Personally i  think recentlythere has been a shift and  some who are employed by the riu are actually keen to catch cheats,not everyone though .

And i think HRNZ isn't on the same page and would rather they didn't,especially anyone high profile. I think its nearly always been like that.

Edited September 11, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

On 11/09/2023 at 2:00 PM, Chief Stipe said:

I'm sure the FEDS or the trainers have taken hair samples to test.  The metabolites can be found up to six months.

Formestane can occur endogenously in some mammals including humans and bovine.

BTW 4-Hydroxytestosterone is a metabolite of Formestane.

Reading about hair testing.

It seems it has its limits.

It doesn't detect recent use.Normally they say it takes at least 10 days to show in hair. 

So as well as being more expensive,you can see why they do urine and blood.

As to the original topic. 

The bute positive by the telfer team.

The amount of bute given to a horse will decrease by 50% on average every 7.22 hours. Each horse metabolises at a different speed,some may be as fast as 5 hours and some as slow as 9 hours,but the average is 7.22 hours.

So by the end of day one,90% has been metabolized and by the end of day 2 only 1% of the original dose remains.

So if a horse is given the recommended dose he should not be returning a positive above the threshold level around 2 days, long before the withholding time which is 9.8 days. 

Then there is also a measurement uncertainty level which labs factor in to cover a horse that metabolizes it slowly. Again,with that measurement uncertainty factored in,even a slow metabolizing horse should be under the threshold level around 2 days after treatment.

Also the levels in the horse include all its tissue,not just the bloodstream so in effect the bloodstream level should be slightly lower.

So really theres no excuses for a horse to be presented to race with bute above the threshold level  if the withholding time had been adhered to.

Edited September 12, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, the galah said:

So really theres no excuses for a horse to be presented to race with bute above the threshold level  if the withholding time had been adhered to.

Yep no excuses and no way to beat the testing system.