Genuine Questions

[Doomed]

I was going to resist the urge to get back on my hobby horse again as there are only 3 or 4 people actually interested in the subject, perhaps only 2, but there have been a couple of related comments recently so here goes.

Can somebody explain to me why there are only 3 meetings in all of Canterbury for the month of December: all 3 of them low key meetings (except for the Timaru Cup race) and one of them on an AWT? So effectively only two meetings for normal horses. I said a month, but it's actually 3 meetings in just over six weeks since the conclusion of Cup Week.

I am not sure if the rationale is because all of the horses are too tired after Cup Week or because they are trying to force Canterbury trainers to support Southland's two meetings for the month.

I keep telling myself that surely it is a different group of horses that race in $65,000 races during Cup Week to the group that would be competitive in $18,500 races. Am I right in that assumption? As to the second possibility, does NZTR realise that the distance between Chch and Invercargill is 567ks, whereas the distance between Palmerston North and Auckland is 518ks. To Pukekohe, which is where Auckland racing actually takes place, is even shorter.

Which brings me to the other perplexing point. During the month that Canty has 3 meetings the CD has 11 meetings. How can this be justified? It isn't as if the CD is over run with horses. Two $65,000 races with 6 starters at Trentham last week, more small fields this week. Even the Northern region has tiny fields, a six horse 3yo at Te Rapa this week. An embarrassment of a Waikato Cup, following on from an embarrassing Counties Cup. The open stayers race at Invercargill has a bigger field and more horses rated higher than 73 than Waikato has. The SI doesn't even get to run 3yo and 2yo races, whereas in the NI they are happy to run high staked age group races with tiny fields.

Surely the CD could be told there are races coming up at Pukekohe if anyone wants a start?

I also struggle with the actual programming when they finally do run a meeting in the SI. One maiden programmed at Invercargill this week on an 8 race card. They ran two maidens on each of the first two days of Cup Week! I do wonder whether we actually fully understand the concept of tiered racing in NZ.

I can't think of a single example of innovative, or really just common sense programming, that has been implemented in the SI over recent years. I'm not a fan of these half arsed inventions of high staked races for horses trained at Tuatapere by trainers outside the top 100. Surely many trainers would rather they just got the basics right so they could place their horses sensibly without having to travel almost 600ks.

I have always thought the Canty racing scene and the whole SI could provide a really good racing product for all concerned if it was only run properly. Sadly, I have given up hope of seeing any light at the end of that tunnel.

[curious]

And feature meetings in Canterbury between cup week and the end of January?

I sometimes think the programming committee just sits down, Has a couple of drinks and says we'll just do the same as what we did last year, then all go home.

Edited December 13, 2023 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

I talked to a couple of prominent trainers recently (this week) and they are exasperated with the programming.  To the point of anger.  Apparently no one listens and there is a huge disconnect.

[curious]

The disconnect has been there for two decades, though then the TA were not interested in advocating for change and they've done nothing since. My only hope is that Entain will somehow persuade NZTR to fix it so that they can get more competitive betting races, fuller fields, more revenue etc. Trainers are angry because they are probably losing owners who may have to pay 2 months training before there is a suitable race for their horse and they then may not get a start.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

My only hope is that Entain will somehow persuade NZTR to fix it so that they can get more competitive betting races, fuller fields, more revenue etc.

But aren't Entain and NZTR still stuck in the disproven theory that increasing stakes will fix everything?

[Freda]

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But aren't Entain and NZTR still stuck in the disproven theory that increasing stakes will fix everything?

Seems so.

[Freda]

21 hours ago, curious said:

And feature meetings in Canterbury between cup week and the end of January?

I sometimes think the programming committee just sits down, Has a couple of drinks and says we'll just do the same as what we did last year, then all go home.

I have pointed this out before.... the Sth Island is now considered 'one region'.  Tim Mills advised me of that when we were discussing programmes at one stage.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

I have pointed this out before.... the Sth Island is now considered 'one region'.  Tim Mills advised me of that when we were discussing programmes at one stage.

If that's the case, then it is perhaps not the programming at issue but their definition of regions that needs reconsidering. The south should maybe divided in 2. Essentially, Canterbury/Westland and Otago/Southland. I can't think of anywhere in the CD or the North where a horse within those regions can't go to the races within the region on a day trip. Back when I was training down here -20 years ago, for a trip from Canterbury to Invercargill, we would go on the Thursday to give the horses a day to recover and loosen up before racing on the Saturday. That's probably a luxury with costs these days but I don't see with today's costs that you could consider a track not reachable in a day trip to be in the same region.

Edited December 14, 2023 by curious

[Freda]

The 'one region' designation has been given as a result of the horse numbers [ esp in the deep south ] which have been steadily dropping for years.

So no amount of petitioning is going to get NZTR to change their classification.  The fact that the dates/programming [ that elephant again ] have for years reduced the attractiveness of training/owning in the south, along with the reduction of venues/screwing of small clubs financially in favour of the big boys, as well as the collapse of jumping, are all factors which have produced the current situation.  The loss of notable owner/breeders from the region, Hazlett just one who comes to mind quickly. Relocated trainers who have seen the writing on the wall [ Didham family, the Richards' , the large team of Ross Beckett formerly Riverton based ]  skew the statistics too.  Some factors, such as the cessation of jumping, reflect societal perceptions too, that can't all be put at the doorstep of NZTR, and economics also.

But for 20 years or so the writing has been on the wall. To say that there has been an agenda to produce this, however, I think, gives too much credit to successive administrations.

 

[Doomed]

If the entire SI is considered one region for racing purposes, there surely the continual eschewing of Timaru and Oamaru makes even less sense. Their central location and good track conditions should surely make them crucial venues in the SI pattern?

[Freda]

14 minutes ago, Doomed said:

If the entire SI is considered one region for racing purposes, there surely the continual eschewing of Timaru and Oamaru makes even less sense. Their central location and good track conditions should surely make them crucial venues in the SI pattern?

You would think so.

[curious]

3 hours ago, Doomed said:

If the entire SI is considered one region for racing purposes, there surely the continual eschewing of Timaru and Oamaru makes even less sense. Their central location and good track conditions should surely make them crucial venues in the SI pattern?

Going a step further, assuming NZTR won't be moved on the SI as one region thing, then couldn't the programming committee do that? So, for example we have 2 feature meetings scheduled in Otago/Southland within 10 days at the moment. If they moved one of those to Canterbury, say to Timaru, perhaps upgrading the Timaru Cup meeting, then all horses in the region would have day trip access to a feature meeting within that period, instead of the large Canterbury horse numbers having none for two months. It is also still an easy day trip for the likes of Wingatui based horses.

[Doomed]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Going a step further, assuming NZTR won't be moved on the SI as one region thing, then couldn't the programming committee do that? So, for example we have 2 feature meetings scheduled in Otago/Southland within 10 days at the moment. If they moved one of those to Canterbury, say to Timaru, perhaps upgrading the Timaru Cup meeting, then all horses in the region would have day trip access to a feature meeting within that period, instead of the large Canterbury horse numbers having none for two months. It is also still an easy day trip for the likes of Wingatui based horses.

Far too much like common sense, no place for that in NZ racing.

[Newmarket]

I think they should stop running the Waikato cup, that field was a disgrace from years ago. 

[Freda]

That is yet another example of messing with what used to work, and work well.

Avondale/Waikato Cups, Queen Elizabeth, and into the Auckland Cup.   Good races in their own right and perfect lead ups to the Auckland Cup.

[Freda]

3 minutes ago, Freda said:

That is yet another example of messing with what used to work, and work well.

Avondale/Waikato Cups, Queen Elizabeth, and into the Auckland Cup.   Good races in their own right and perfect lead ups to the Auckland Cup.

Add Wellington, which has allowed itself to be dicked around repeatedly, altering the time-honoured  WFA 2400 lead up into the Wellington Cup - even changing the distance of the Cup, ffs, to the detriment of not just the fields but the business of owning/training stayers.

There are still plenty around who can train the distance horse, but - as pointed out elsewhere -  doing so is less and less attractive as the opportunities and flow of races is constantly fiddled around with.

[mikeynz]

Looking at all the programmes in the South when they only have one open handicap how do they determine whether it's 1200 1400 1600 or 2000m , it's a just a wild guess or something  and just hope for the best ?

Edited December 19, 2023 by mikeynz

[curious]

3 hours ago, mikeynz said:

Looking at all the programmes in the South when they only have one open handicap how do they determine whether it's 1200 1400 1600 or 2000m , it's a just a wild guess or something  and just hope for the best ?

6 noms for a 50k open 2200 at Wingatui on boxing day

[Doomed]

5 hours ago, curious said:

6 noms for a 50k open 2200 at Wingatui on boxing day

Surprising, I thought just throw money at it and the industry would be all good.

Perhaps the problems went deeper than that. Who would have thought.

Not as bad as Trentham though, a couple of 6 horse fields every meeting there.

They might have to increase all the stakes again and then I'm sure everything will come right.

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, Doomed said:

They might have to increase all the stakes again and then I'm sure everything will come right.

There are enough horses turning up for trials but talking to a few trainers the race programming frustrates the hell out of them.  If they don't sort that out then the higher grade issues will never improve primarily because there won't be enough horses given the opportunity to climb the grades.

Further with regard to trials there aren't any turf track trials in the Aucland/Waikato region for over a month except for yesterdays trials on the synthetic at Cambridge.  For obvious reasons some of the best trainers won't go near that track at this time of year with their 2 and 3 year olds. 

Rumour has it that some are organising their own informal jump outs to fill in the gap.  That doesn't help Clubs, programming or Punters or any stake holder.

[curious]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

There are enough horses turning up for trials but talking to a few trainers the race programming frustrates the hell out of them.  If they don't sort that out then the higher grade issues will never improve primarily because there won't be enough horses given the opportunity to climb the grades.

Further with regard to trials there aren't any turf track trials in the Aucland/Waikato region for over a month except for yesterdays trials on the synthetic at Cambridge.  For obvious reasons some of the best trainers won't go near that track at this time of year with their 2 and 3 year olds. 

Rumour has it that some are organising their own informal jump outs to fill in the gap.  That doesn't help Clubs, programming or Punters or any stake holder.

That's pretty much how Levin jumpouts got going. Needs to happen here in Canterbury too. If Rangiora had their own set of 8 gates. Could easily be done but given the CJC controls the Rangiora clubs, hard to figure how you could make it happen.

[Freda]

Apparently the running rail now has to be removed and replaced by marker pegs.   So any negotiations about private jumpouts would have to be carried out with the harness crew I imagine. 

Just gets harder and harder.

[Chief Stipe]

Didn't realise the problem was country wide.  Just thought it might have been a few top trainers complaining.

I wonder if Winnie will give a refund on the synthetic tracks?  He has another $1.3 billion to throw around.  Assuming Christchurch is still classified as a provincial town.

[curious]

41 minutes ago, Freda said:

Apparently the running rail now has to be removed and replaced by marker pegs.   So any negotiations about private jumpouts would have to be carried out with the harness crew I imagine. 

Just gets harder and harder.

Is that because they've lost the plastic running rail they had?

[Chief Stipe]

Interestingly I see a one race trial meeting at Matamata this Friday has been added to the calendar.

An Open 1000m with 11 nominations.  Shame it isn't a betting race!

Plc Horse Jockey Trainer

1 Maven Belle

(4m Burgundy - Doyenne) Mark Walker & Sam Bergerson, Matamata

2 Talisker

(3g Embellish - Glenkinchie (AUS)) Mark Walker & Sam Bergerson, Riccarton Park

3 Amusez Moi

(7g Dalghar (FR) - Next (GB)) Benjamin King, Matamata

4 Wild Night

(4g Vanbrugh (AUS) - Supreme) Mark Walker & Sam Bergerson, Matamata

5 Trobriand

(AUS) (3c Kermadec - Arboreal (AUS)) Mark Walker & Sam Bergerson, Matamata

6 Babylon Berlin

(AUS) (6m All Too Hard (AUS) - You Can't Say That (AUS)) Ben & Ryan Foote, Cambridge

7 Mehzebeen

(4m Almanzor (FR) - Salkantay) Mark Walker & Sam Bergerson, Riccarton Park

8 Maria Farina

(6m Contributer (IRE) - La Vitesse) Darryn & Briar Weatherley, Matamata

9 Bonny Lass

(5m Super Easy - Posh Bec) Graham Richardson & Rogan Norvall, Matamata

10 Legarto

(4m Proisir (AUS) - Geordie Girl) Ken & Bev Kelso, Matamata

11 Masetto

(8g Cape Blanco (IRE) - Passchendaele)