ben yole

[Walt]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Obviously there are quite a few owners and breeders that are willing to sell their horses to whoever has the money to buy them.  What a novel concept!

How do you determine who is a worthy buyer?  Who would ever consider buying a horse if it came with a condition that the owner had to look after it for 30 years!!

one that doesn't have a well known record for abuse and cruelty. The fact Yole has official written and legal judgements confirming what most already knew is more than enough for me...and hopefully many others. 

[Walt]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't fish have feelings? 

sure do...but you're just being obtuse now Chief. 

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Walt said:

Call me old fashioned or an idealist but I don't see horses in the same way. If I buy a horse of any age or ability, I feel a responsibility for it. That responsibility extends past it no longer being in my ownership. 

Racing is built on emotion but at the end of the day there are very real practicalities that come into play.  If you let emotion rule and elevate the equine higher than any other livestock then we open ourselves up to all sorts of issues that ultimately will result in the demise of the industry.  The new woke will slowly chip away at every practice involved in racing.  Shoeing (not natural), lugging bits, twitches, hobbles, whips and so on.

[Walt]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Racing is built on emotion but at the end of the day there are very real practicalities that come into play.  If you let emotion rule and elevate the equine higher than any other livestock then we open ourselves up to all sorts of issues that ultimately will result in the demise of the industry.  The new woke will slowly chip away at every practice involved in racing.  Shoeing (not natural), lugging bits, twitches, hobbles, whips and so on.

We are both on the same page with the nauseating Woke culture.

I know of numerous trainers that send certain horses to meet their maker. In every case those I know are good hard working people of both genders making practical decisions. I make no judgement. 

That is light years away from condoning and enabling diabolical abuse and cruelty.  

[Walt]

For the record, I'm a big fan of Jumps racing. Always have been. Always will be. Those that oppose it in most cases, wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. 

[Chief Stipe]

36 minutes ago, Walt said:

That is light years away from condoning and enabling diabolical abuse and cruelty.

Yes it is however it is up to HRNZ to keep our house in order not someone elses.  

[Blackie]

Geez you're a protaganist Chief, fish indeed.

A horse is totally different to any other livestock creature I know( the French may have a different opinion) , and with you're background you'd know that. You get in tune with a horse, moreso than any other domesticated animal. I could pull the trigger on any other animal but a horse, only if it was suffering.

If there was a live horsemeat market, to say , France, you'd be okay with that?  Not in my universe, though in some ways it maybe kinder than ending up on the island of Tasmania, if all those reports are correct.

I think animal abuse & cruelty should be called out wherever it is, horses don't recognise borders. Should be simple enough to put in place a ban on all exports entering Tasmania or the like.

My 10c worth.

 

[Gammalite]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:43 PM, Brodie said:

Not sure how the state of racing in Tasmania has been allowed to get to the state it is currently is?

From the photos of the training establishment of Ben Yole, it shouldve been stopped before now, as those dust paddocks are diabolical.

Without Yole training horses in Tasmania, it is hard to see how they can run financially viable meetings?

Well there's quite a few players in Tas still.. Brodster. it's a big state. well sort of lol....

They still had the meetings last week without Yole. (albeit some small fields lol ) 

And this week next Sunday at Carrick, they have 10 races of 10 horses odd,  Without Yole's runners  . So all the players that look after their horses well are getting a go Without Yole Loading races  , and the fixing and the like. 

the Tassie harness world improves instantly ! how good for them and the honest players there.

Hopefully SUMMIT Bloodstock can use better Trainers that have BETTER care and Compassion with their horses in Tasmania Chief ?. that's the 'Alternative' you asked for Chief ? they must be embarrassed (and Aaron Bain too) by the shocking report.  

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, Blackie said:

Should be simple enough to put in place a ban on all exports entering Tasmania or the like.

Impossible to stipulate that and even if it was possible there are numerous ways to get around it.

Regardless I think a few of the fairy tail group need to harden up and accept the reality that the cost of supporting EVERY race horse or up to 30 years of their lives is prohibitive.

I also think you are conveniently forgetting the practices of the past when you wallow in a nostalgic view of times gone by.

Or you've never been that closely associated with the rigours of day to day 24/7 horse training.

[Blackie]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I also think you are conveniently forgetting the practices of the past when you wallow in a nostalgic view of times gone by.

I think it is you that has to get with the here and now Chieftan, otherwise we won’t have an industry at all.

 

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Or you've never been that closely associated with the rigours of day to day 24/7 horse training.

Yeah right, and still doing it.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Blackie said:

I think it is you that has to get with the here and now Chieftan, otherwise we won’t have an industry at all.

 

Yeah right, and still doing it.

So if we low ball the figures then we have 2,000 harness horses born per year to look after for 25 years (assuming they are well looked after).  50,000 horses to care for annually requiring 38,000 hectares of land growing good grass assuming you are not going to stable them.

Seems a programme for economic disaster!

 

[Walt]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Impossible to stipulate that and even if it was possible there are numerous ways to get around it.

Regardless I think a few of the fairy tail group need to harden up and accept the reality that the cost of supporting EVERY race horse or up to 30 years of their lives is prohibitive.

I also think you are conveniently forgetting the practices of the past when you wallow in a nostalgic view of times gone by.

Or you've never been that closely associated with the rigours of day to day 24/7 horse training.

Disappointed to see your stance Chief that just keeps getting weaker. You've now resorted to ridiculing those with a different perspective than your own as if you were addressing a Woke Green Party Tree Huggers Convention. I'm a betting man and would wager all contributors to this thread have spent enough time around horses to understand their natures both good and not so good and the practicalities of a large number of ex racehorses.

There just aren't enough lush back paddocks, pony clubs, riding for the disabled, people with a lot of extra time to call on and of course, deep pockets. That however is absolutely no excuse for reprehensible and inhumane treatment of any animal, but even more so if we are talking about an intelligent, sensitive and well mannered horse.

The HERO program in Canterbury does magnificent work with ex race horses but even they have to draw the line with which horses that enter their program. 

I've seen hundreds of horses meet their maker over the years. Two via my own hand. The importance of "humane euthanasia" is not lost on me. If your top priority is what's expedient for you, then in my view you should find another interest

I will never for any excuse condone abuse, neglect, mistreatment, cruelty of a horse. Some not only condone it, they proactively enable it.

As for "wallowing in a nostalgic view of times gone by"....a favourite place for me to visit is horse racing memory lane but I do so with my eyes open.  Unless things change, the only thing NZ harness racing will end up with is it's past. 

I spoke to you a while back of a favourite pacer of mine in the 1970's. He won 9 races, 6 as a 4 year old. Despite being a stallion, you described him as a gentleman. He was exported to the US. He became unwell on the trip which was not of his making. The new owner decided to drown him for the insurance. Humane treatment had zero priority. Expediency and insurance money were their priority. I only learned of the appalling circumstances 44 years after it occurred. Unfortunately for me, I'm cursed with visualizing what unfolded and the distress involved. 

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you Chief. Yes, I will resort to emotive content.

You breed a horse. You're there when he's foaled. You watch his progress and are excited when he goes to his first trial and qualifies. You're there when he has his debut run. You're there when he wins his first race with all the implications.

You spend time around him and know he's a lovely well mannered horse but with a fierce determination on the track.

You invite friends, family and colleagues to share the excitement on race day. 

You have framed photos of his wins on the wall in your office and lounge. 

He starts to struggle to compete on the local scene. 

There are only two hypothetical options on the table.

Option 1) A person with an impeccable record who runs an equestrian centre offers you 10k for him. You know he'll be in good hands and you can pop in and see him with his fav treat if / when you get the urge. 

Option 2) Ben Yole offers you 20k but you know he has a confirmed record of abuse, cruelty, neglect and cheating. 

Which option are you going with Chief? 

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Walt said:

There just aren't enough lush back paddocks, pony clubs, riding for the disabled, people with a lot of extra time to call on and of course, deep pockets. That however is absolutely no excuse for reprehensible and inhumane treatment of any animal, but even more so if we are talking about an intelligent, sensitive and well mannered horse.

Of course there aren't enough lush paddocks but some are arguing for a cradle to a natural grave policy.  It is unachieveable. 

But where is the line drawn?

There is legislation regarding animal welfare and there are rules within the jurisdiction of HRNZ.

23 minutes ago, Walt said:

I've seen hundreds of horses meet their maker over the years. Two via my own hand. The importance of "humane euthanasia" is not lost on me. If your top priority is what's expedient for you, then in my view you should find another interest

Again some are arguing for a cradle to the grave policy.  You admit and we both know that such a policy is impractical.  Going anywhere down that path only weakens the economics of the sport and I would argue that is the reason some are pursuing that policy.

25 minutes ago, Walt said:

Option 1) A person with an impeccable record who runs an equestrian centre offers you 10k for him. You know he'll be in good hands and you can pop in and see him with his fav treat if / when you get the urge. 

I doubt any equestrian centre will offer you anything for a standardbred.

26 minutes ago, Walt said:

Option 2) Ben Yole offers you 20k but you know he has a confirmed record of abuse, cruelty, neglect and cheating. 

Since when has Ben Yole been offering $20k for a standardbred that can't compete in NZ?  Regardless isn't it the choice of the owner what they do with their horse?  You may find their descision morally reprehensible but it is their descision.  It isn't the role of HRNZ to regulate who someone can sell their horse to.

 

[Chief Stipe]

46 minutes ago, Walt said:

Option 2) Ben Yole offers you 20k but you know he has a confirmed record of abuse, cruelty, neglect and cheating.

Given he is now effectively banned I'd want to see the money in my bank account before handing the horse over.

 

[Walt]

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Given he is now effectively banned I'd want to see the money in my bank account before handing the horse over.

 

It was only hypothetical Chief but you're conceding that if Ben Yole put 20k into your account, you'd send your horse to him knowing it will almost certainly be neglected, abused, subjected to cruelty and be involved in cheating?  

[Gammalite]

Yole Racing  doesn't buy them. He is Supplied by Summit and Bain Bloodstock all the time with horses from around the nation that are going too slow in their own state (or nz) to earn anymore. A share of some size is then given to 'Yole racing Ltd' as the 'future training Fee' . this means Summit pays Nothing for the training week to week ,once they supply Yole with a horse. Hence the poor conditions the horses endure.  and with No control from the outside owners group (s)

Yole therefore gets a cut of the prizemoney. The 'penny share Summit share holders' probably get something like 10 bucks each when Yole wins a Tassie race with their 'soon to be deceased' pride and Joy horse.  

[Walt]

32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Regardless isn't it the choice of the owner what they do with their horse?  You may find their descision morally reprehensible but it is their descision.  

 

You may own a horse or a dog etc but that ownership comes with responsibilities does it not? 

Where do we draw the line? Is it reasonable to sell your ex racing greyhound to a dog fighting ring because you own the greyhound? 

Is it reasonable to send your horse to a trainer with a proven diabolical record? 

We have a responsibility of care to our horses. If we leave it in a paddock with no access to water, we know what the outcome would be. Disputing the charge on the basis of it being your horse ......will carry no water. Apologies, couldn't resist the pun  .

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Walt said:

It was only hypothetical Chief but you're conceding that if Ben Yole put 20k into your account, you'd send your horse to him knowing it will almost certainly be neglected, abused, subjected to cruelty and be involved in cheating?  

Or send it to the knackers yard?

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Yole therefore gets a cut of the prizemoney. The 'penny share Summit share holders' probably get something like 10 bucks each when Yole wins a Tassie race with their 'soon to be deceased' pride and Joy horse.  

I think you are stretching it when you say "pride and joy horse"!

[Walt]

9 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Yole Racing  doesn't buy them. He is Supplied by Summit and Bain Bloodstock all the time with horses from around the nation that are going too slow in their own state (or nz) to earn anymore. A share of some size is then given to 'Yole racing Ltd' as the 'future training Fee' . this means Summit pays Nothing for the training week to week ,once they supply Yole with a horse. Hence the poor conditions the horses endure.  and with No control from the outside owners group (s)

Yole therefore gets a cut of the prizemoney. The 'penny share Summit share holders' probably get something like 10 bucks each when Yole wins a Tassie race with their 'soon to be deceased' pride and Joy horse.  

What a tragic indictment on an industry we love Gammalite. 

Out of sight, out of mind. The only priority is a few quid. I have no regard for the protestors that turn up on Great Northern Steeplechase day or Melbourne Cup day......but if those same protestors turned up in a high profile manner outside the Yole property, I'd say fair enough.

If we want the public to turn their back on harness racing, all we need to do is condone or enable oxygen thieves like Yole to profit from cruelty and abuse of harness horses.

[Chief Stipe]

10 minutes ago, Walt said:

You may own a horse or a dog etc but that ownership comes with responsibilities does it not? 

Yes or though in a Syndicate it is the Racing Managers responsibility.

11 minutes ago, Walt said:

Where do we draw the line? Is it reasonable to sell your ex racing greyhound to a dog fighting ring because you own the greyhound? 

That's still MY choice not something HRNZ should be called upon to legislate.  You can't legislate morality.

11 minutes ago, Walt said:

Is it reasonable to send your horse to a trainer with a proven diabolical record? 

I wouldn't ever send my horse to a trainer with a proven diabolical record.  I'd give it every chance I could otherwise what's the point of the investment?

12 minutes ago, Walt said:

We have a responsibility of care to our horses.

Yes you do.  But only when you own it.  

[Walt]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Or send it to the knackers yard?

Without contradicting myself Chief, the knackers yard can be a reasonable and practical option .....providing the horses are treated humanely. 

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I think you are stretching it when you say "pride and joy horse"!

Indeed. I think that is part of the problem.

ALL the stables I've been in always had great owners . They would come on Sundays and pat their horse, and yak and have a beer etc, ..Be there on race-nights whether their horse was capable of getting a cheque or not. some horses run at a loss but they loved em anyway.

At YOLE's , no one cares anymore. It's like they are on the production line to their doom , and are they capable of picking up a Tasmanian prizemoney cheque or not on their way to it. No caring owners to oversee their wellfare, JUST a concerned neighbour and ex-staff that have expressed concerns and Finally got action taken. 

Leap To Fame owner , millionaire Seymour has bred 100's of horses , so he supply's Yole with many (via the Bloodstock agent) and couldn't care less where they end up. Once you have that many horses , in a relentless quest to get a champion (which he finally achieved thank christ)  , I guess you become insensitive to their needs and THIS Yole thing happens. 

[Walt]

On 2/8/2024 at 11:03 AM, Gammalite said:

Indeed. I think that is part of the problem.

ALL the stables I've been in always had great owners . They would come on Sundays and pat their horse, and yak and have a beer etc, ..Be there on race-nights whether their horse was capable of getting a cheque or not. some horses run at a loss but they loved em anyway.

At YOLE's , no one cares anymore. It's like they are on the production line to their doom , and are they capable of picking up a Tasmanian prizemoney cheque or not on their way to it. No caring owners to oversee their wellfare, JUST a concerned neighbour and ex-staff that have expressed concerns and Finally got action taken. 

Leap To Fame owner , millionaire Seymour has bred 100's of horses , so he supply's Yole with many (via the Bloodstock agent) and couldn't care less where they end up. Once you have that many horses , in a relentless quest to get a champion (which he finally achieved thank christ)  , I guess you become insensitive to their needs and THIS Yole thing happens. 

You've put some very relevant points on the table Gammalite. What a champion Seymour is. He's wrung all he can from "his" horses exactly like they were nothing more than a cash card and then sends them to a person he knows will likely cheat with them and then when they can no longer win in Tasmania, they are slaughtered in a heartless grotesque manner if credible reports are to be believed. I've heard stories that are just to farking awful to repeat. It's Seymour that can make a tangible difference but to do so he'd have to give a shit. Compelling evidence says I have more chance of winning the lotto.

Leap To Fame is an excitement machine....but at what price do other equine athletes pay for that?  

Edited February 8 by Walt

[the galah]

On 5/02/2024 at 9:47 AM, the galah said:

I just hope they don't allow the likes of yoles father to take over the training of the horses The public perception will be shocking if they don't shut yole down.

 

So Yoles father now seemingly has taken over the training of many of the yoles horses.He has 8 in one race on sunday.

So the man who was reportedly ben yoles stable forman,who worked at his sons training establishment 6 days a week during the times of all the animal abuse ,race fixing and everything else that went on,just steps in when they ban his son.

No doubt this has been the go to plan for the yoles for a while now,ever since the publicity

Yoles father saying just before they banned his son,that he was looking forward to training more now he was getting a bit older.He trained his first winner for 3 years last month.

Why would anyone think ben yoles father at age 71,or yoles staff who chose to work for ben yole when they must have known what went on,why would anyone think much will change? if their standards and practices were that low,In reality nothing will change,they will just get better at hiding that type of thing.

Edited February 21 by the galah