Prowess returns positive in OZ

[curious]

30 minutes ago, Freda said:

Isn't Meloxicam the go-to now?

3 day detection time cf 7 for bute?

No more effective.

Overall, PBZ was more effective than MXM at reducing pain in the HBS model, while MXM was more effective at reducing pain in the SYN model at the oral doses used.

      Banse H, Cribb AE. Comparative efficacy of oral meloxicam and phenylbutazone in 2 experimental pain models in the horse. Can Vet J. 2017 Feb;58(2):157-167. PMID: 28216685; PMCID: PMC5234315.

[curious]

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Masking soreness?  Or treating it?  

Only evidenced treatment value is probably pain management, not healing, and it may be counter effective to that.

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, curious said:

Only evidenced treatment value is probably pain management, not healing, and it may be counter effective to that.

So treatments to reduce inflamation are a waste of time?  An inflammatory response which is closely linked to pain is an early indicator of injury.  Long term inflammation can be deleterious to recovery.

[curious]

50 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So treatments to reduce inflamation are a waste of time? 

Questionable at best. Probably negative for bone injuries, neutral for soft tissue ones. Make every one feel better though including the horse.

Edited February 9, 2024 by curious

[Freda]

Bute goes out to 14 days for cumulative administration, meloxicam 4.2.

My thoughts are, that if you need such medication to race,  you shouldn't be doing it.

Different if for pain relief while recovering.

[curious]

As per the NZEVA doc posted above, bute actually went to 9.8 days recommended withdrawal time here, estimated 7 day detection time. Meloxicam by comparison 3 days detection, 4.2 possible withdrawal time.

[Special Agent]

Rafael Nadal was permitted to play in the 2022 French Open even though injecting with painkillers because the painkillers he used are on an allowable list and are believed to have no long lasting effects.

Like bute, of course there are long lasting effects.  Any long lasting effects are irrelevant to a trainer.

[Freda]

5 hours ago, Special Agent said:

Rafael Nadal was permitted to play in the 2022 French Open even though injecting with painkillers because the painkillers he used are on an allowable list and are believed to have no long lasting effects.

Like bute, of course there are long lasting effects.  Any long lasting effects are irrelevant to a trainer.

Oi.  Not all trainers. 

[nod]

Not that long ago the majority of USA horses raced on bute -said to be worth a length or two in performance

[Freda]

1 hour ago, nod said:

Not that long ago the majority of USA horses raced on bute -said to be worth a length or two in performance

Probably because they hurt....

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Freda said:

Probably because they hurt....

All elite athletes hurt.  You train them to cope with that.

[Huey]

59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

All elite athletes hurt.  You train them to cope with that.

Well you've got me intrigued, how do you train horses to cope with pain?

[nod]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Probably because they hurt....

The champion trainer told me it was  performance

Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

All elite athletes hurt.  You train them to cope with that.

Ffs, you talk some shit sometimes.     Humans can make their own informed decisions.  Animals - those under our direct control - can't.   Pain is an indication that there is something wrong and that the affected part should be rested.

Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen.

[Freda]

1 minute ago, nod said:

The champion trainer told me it was  performance

Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated

Lasix - for bleeders - is widely used in the states, legally.  That is supposed to be performance enhancing.  Not bute although reduction of pain would certainly help performance - until the creature broke.

[curious]

14 minutes ago, nod said:

The champion trainer told me it was  performance

Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated

Funny that they've phased it out because of catastrophic injury rates.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

All elite athletes hurt.  You train them to cope with that.

Usually by treatment, rest and healing.

[nod]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

Lasix - for bleeders - is widely used in the states, legally.  That is supposed to be performance enhancing.  Not bute although reduction of pain would certainly help performance - until the creature broke.

Thanks for the correction [old timers disease] Sometimes I remember things from history like     my last winner  or that Dean Martins real name was Crocceti

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

Ffs, you talk some shit sometimes.     Humans can make their own informed decisions.  Animals - those under our direct control - can't.   Pain is an indication that there is something wrong and that the affected part should be rested.

Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen.

Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club.

The very act of training a race horse has to cause stress to elicit the physical and mental responses necessary to compete at a high level of performance.

That stress involves pain.  That's a fact not shit.

A trainer has to manage injury prevention and those stresses that cause pain or injury.

But if you think that a horse racing at peak fitness doesn't experience any pain even momentarily then you are in dreamland.  Post race techniques are all about managing that stress, the inflammation and the associated pain.  It might be an ice bath, it might be a walk in the surf at the beach, it might be a dose of bicarbonate to manage the lactic acid build up.  

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, Freda said:

Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen.

So you let them experience pain?  Or is the issue racing a horse when there is an underlying condition that hasn't been treated?

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club.

The very act of training a race horse has to cause stress to elicit the physical and mental responses necessary to compete at a high level of performance.

That stress involves pain.  That's a fact not shit.

A trainer has to manage injury prevention and those stresses that cause pain or injury.

But if you think that a horse racing at peak fitness doesn't experience any pain even momentarily then you are in dreamland.  Post race techniques are all about managing that stress, the inflammation and the associated pain.  It might be an ice bath, it might be a walk in the surf at the beach, it might be a dose of bicarbonate to manage the lactic acid build up.  

It might be a lot of things.  But you are not 'training the horse to manage pain'.  You are trying to manage/reduce it on their behalf.

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you let them experience pain? 

Not if I can help it.

Or is the issue racing a horse when there is an underlying condition that hasn't been treated?

Very likely. 

 

[curious]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club.

That stress involves pain.  That's a fact not shit.

You've been watching too many 1980's Jane Fonda "no pain, no gain" work out videos.

[Special Agent]

I can't agree that giving bute is training a horse to manage pain.  I've taken voltaren for broken bones.  They are still sore once the drug has worn off.  Unless you have Mr Ed in your stable you'd be hard pressed to know exactly the individual level of pain.  Some win races with fractures but, without bute.  Some won't break into a trot with a minor abrasion.

As far as injury prevention is concerned, bloody hell many of us have nursed injuries for which we wish there had been some simple resolve.  A lot of what happens in racing is heart breaking already.  Imagine something horrific resulting from racing on bute.

How could you live with yourself?

Back to prevention, wait for some numb nut in our part of the world thinking this is a good idea.  The Dutch equestrian world will be banning the use of bandages for work and competition.

 

[curious]

21 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Back to prevention, wait for some numb nut in our part of the world thinking this is a good idea.  The Dutch equestrian world will be banning the use of bandages for work and competition.

 

Agree with the rest of your post but numb nuts? Or horse health and safety visionaries?

https://equusmagazine.com/news/dutch-national-federation-bans-bandages-in-competition/